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US politics: Donny, you're out of your element


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35 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Looks like our good friend Milo has managed to screw himself out of a job and a book advance...

 

Couldn't happen to a nicer troll.

 

lmao

also got dis-invited from cpac in relatively short order. sometimes, online is good as hell

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40 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Looks like our good friend Milo has managed to screw himself out of a job and a book advance...

 

 

 

Couldn't happen to a nicer troll.

 

I'll have to beg forgiveness for not clicking on a link about that rodent, but what is this in response to?

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I'll have to beg forgiveness for not clicking on a link about that rodent, but what is this in response to?

 

Milo Yiannopoulos disinvited from CPAC slot amid tape controversy
The right-wing provocateur says he 'deeply regret' the way his comments were interpreted.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-cpac-milo-yiannopoulos-tape-235204

 

Pence: Trump White House supports 'free and independent press'

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/mike-pence-trump-free-press-235206

Not sure why I'm getting lines in my posts, sorry.

 

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Sounds like the troll got trolled, Live by the troll, die by the troll.

But if this paedophilia thing turns out to be a fake news take down, where his statements have been taken out of context (which Milo claims is the case), then the end result might be better for him.

Not quite on the same level, but this might be not unlike the WSJ attempt to take down PewDiePie as a racist and anti-semite, when the full facts show that he's nothing of the sort. PewDiePie did get axed by Disney and Youtube Red over it, but his subscriber numbers have skyrocketed, because the WSJ article has been shown up as fake news.

Honestly, I don't know if I'd be surprised if Milo did believe consensual paedophilia is OK. There are a lot of people who think it's not a black and white issue and that there shouldn't be an arbitrary age of consent. So I can conceive of someone like Milo thinking that pre-pubescent boys who enter into it willingly with men is OK and there should be no law against it. I'm sure he's against child rape, I don't think even NAMBLA would support child rape. But that doesn't mean he's necessarily against consensual relationships. So it will be interesting to see if and when the truth of his views come out. If he's in favour of decriminalising consensual paedophilia then if he's the sort of person he claims to be, then he should stand up and support that view consequences be damned.

Regardless of who is the subject of a media beat up, I think from now on people need to take a wait and see approach on everything regardless of the media source, because it seems like now more than ever the full truth is being sacrificed for hits / clicks / ratings.

I condemn almost all of Milo's views (and his media persona) generally, but I won't condemn him for being a paedophila sympathiser just yet.

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9 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Sounds like the troll got trolled, Live by the troll, die by the troll.

But if this paedophilia thing turns out to be a fake news take down, where his statements have been taken out of context (which Milo claims is the case), then the end result might be better for him.

Not quite on the same level, but this might be not unlike the WSJ attempt to take down PewDiePie as a racist and anti-semite, when the full facts show that he's nothing of the sort. PewDiePie did get axed by Disney and Youtube Red over it, but his subscriber numbers have skyrocketed, because the WSJ article has been shown up as fake news.

Honestly, I don't know if I'd be surprised if Milo did believe consensual paedophilia is OK. There are a lot of people who think it's not a black and white issue and that there shouldn't be an arbitrary age of consent. So I can conceive of someone like Milo thinking that pre-pubescent boys who enter into it willingly with men is OK and there should be no law against it. I'm sure he's against child rape, I don't think even NAMBLA would support child rape. But that doesn't mean he's necessarily against consensual relationships. So it will be interesting to see if and when the truth of his views come out. If he's in favour of decriminalising consensual paedophilia then if he's the sort of person he claims to be, then he should stand up and support that view consequences be damned.

Regardless of who is the subject of a media beat up, I think from now on people need to take a wait and see approach on everything regardless of the media source, because it seems like now more than ever the full truth is being sacrificed for hits / clicks / ratings.

I condemn almost all of Milo's views (and his media persona) generally, but I won't condemn him for being a paedophila sympathiser just yet.

NO!!!!!!!!  There's no such thing as consensual pedophelia.  NAMBLA's entire point is that it advocates for child rape.  A child not saying no to sex with an adult is still rape. Do not normalize this.  

 

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Leaving the trolls aside, there does anybody know how much money is being rerouted by the recent DHS actions? I've looked at both sides of the propaganda (e.g. CNN, Breitbart), but neither of them mention even an order of magnitude. Here's CNN's take on this:

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The guidance also takes any money being used by DHS to advocate on behalf of undocumented immigrants to establish the Victims of Immigration Crime Engagement (VOICE) Office, which is mandated by the executive order to report crimes committed by undocumented immigrants and to advocate for victims of those crimes.

Breitbart's is significantly more detailed, but it says more or less the same thing:

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“Criminal aliens routinely victimize Americans and other legal residents,” Kelly wrote in a six-page memo obtained by Breitbart Texas. “Often, these victims are not provided adequate information about the offender, the offender’s immigration status, or any enforcement action taken by ICE against the offender.”

I am establishing the [VOICE] Office within the Office of the Director of ICE, which will create a programmatic liaison between ICE and the known victims of crimes committed by removable aliens,” the secretary explained. “The liaison will facilitate engagement with the victims and their families to ensure, to the extent permitted by law, that they are provided information about the offender, including the offender’s immigration status and custody status, and that their questions and concerns regarding immigration enforcement efforts are addressed.”

Kelly ordered the acting ICE director to immediately reallocate any and all resources that were previously allocated to advocate on behalf of illegal aliens to now be used to support VOICE. He ordered the immediate termination of any outreach or advocacy services to illegal aliens.

So, how much money will this new VOICE Office have?

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31 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

NO!!!!!!!!  There's no such thing as consensual pedophelia.  NAMBLA's entire point is that it advocates for child rape.  A child not saying no to sex with an adult is still rape. Do not normalize this.  

 

You completely miss the point. And that's a matter of perspective. The normal and sane perspective is there is no such thing as consensual paedophilia. But there are people who believe there can be consensual and loving adult / child sexual relationships:ack:. We say NAMBLA's purpose is to advocate for child rape. NAMBLA claims what its members want to do is not rape and shouldn't be called rape and shouldn't be criminal. Even if I find a perspective to be utterly disgusting and repulsive I can still recognise that someone has this perspective and believes in it.  

But the question is what's Milo's real perspective? Does he believe in the concept of consensual adult/child sex and that this should be decriminalised? Or does he not believe in such a thing and is opposed to it and he's being subject to a media beat up but because loads of people dislike him and want to see him taken down they are happy to simply believe what is being said about him?

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30 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Leaving the trolls aside, there does anybody know how much money is being rerouted by the recent DHS actions? I've looked at both sides of the propaganda (e.g. CNN, Breitbart), but neither of them mention even an order of magnitude. Here's CNN's take on this:

Breitbart's is significantly more detailed, but it says more or less the same thing:

So, how much money will this new VOICE Office have?

So victims of crime committed by regular Americans get worse support than victims of crimes committed by immigrants even if the crime is the same and the harm done is the same. So you have a 2-tier victim system now? Shouldn't victim support be the same no matter who the criminal is?

What's the purpose or benefit of a victim knowing the immigration status of the alleged offender or even the convicted offender? If the person committed a capital offence will that make them any more dead when they are executed? Will there be some kind of comfort in the victim knowing that it wasn't a real American who did this nasty thing to them? Will there be someone (or some govt department) they can sue because an immigrant did them wrong?

You'd at least think that money could be redirected to enforcement or crime prevention, since that might actually be helpful to the community.

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1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So victims of crime committed by regular Americans get worse support than victims of crimes committed by immigrants even if the crime is the same and the harm done is the same. So you have a 2-tier victim system now? Shouldn't victim support be the same no matter who the criminal is?

What's the purpose or benefit of a victim knowing the immigration status of the alleged offender or even the convicted offender? If the person committed a capital offence will that make them any more dead when they are executed? Will there be some kind of comfort in the victim knowing that it wasn't a real American who did this nasty thing to them? Will there be someone (or some govt department) they can sue because an immigrant did them wrong?

You'd at least think that money could be redirected to enforcement or crime prevention, since that might actually be helpful to the community.

You're missing what this is going to do.

This is going to publicize every single victimization of every single immigrant as well as publicly showcase any information they have - where they live, where they work, who they are, anything. The goal is to basically showcase the immigrant criminal of the day. 

It should be fairly trivial to defeat this based on privacy rights of people (regardless of citizenship) but the point is simply to make more people more angry at any crimes committed by any immigrants.

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4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You're missing what this is going to do.

This is going to publicize every single victimization of every single immigrant as well as publicly showcase any information they have - where they live, where they work, who they are, anything. The goal is to basically showcase the immigrant criminal of the day. 

It should be fairly trivial to defeat this based on privacy rights of people (regardless of citizenship) but the point is simply to make more people more angry at any crimes committed by any immigrants.

Is this supposed to be for undocumented immigrants or all immigrants?  Is this for violent offenders or any crime, including the 'crime' of being undocumented?  Where is the money coming from?  Will the money be eventually stolen from immigrants to fund this?  Is anyone else's stomach a total wreck?

On a related note, alongside the bomb threats Jewish Centers are receiving, vandals caused extensive damage at a Jewish cemetery in St. Louis.

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Vandals in the St. Louis area have caused extensive damage to a Jewish cemetery in University City.

Numerous headstones at the Chesed Shel Emeth Cemetery were toppled this weekend, among other damage, police said. Cemetery employees discovered the damage Monday morning. 

Fox2 St. Louis reporter Andy Banker said he counted at least 100 toppled headstones when he walked through the cemetery, which was established by a group of Jewish immigrants from Russia in 1893.

 

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3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

This is going to publicize every single victimization of every single immigrant as well as publicly showcase any information they have - where they live, where they work, who they are, anything

I don't see much of a point to publicizing where they live, but yes, this has excellent propaganda potential. The other possible use for it is to minimize situations like the one with the recently deported criminal who had committed the crime years ago and was allowed to stay in the US.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Is this supposed to be for undocumented immigrants or all immigrants?  Is this for violent offenders or any crime, including the 'crime' of being undocumented?  Where is the money coming from?  Will the money be eventually stolen from immigrants to fund this?  Is anyone else's stomach a total wreck?

My suspicion is that it is for anyone who is desired to be shamed. So any muslim, any refugee, any immigrant (illegal or otherwise), etc. It's deliberately vague and open-ended. For that reason it'll almost certainly get beaten to a pulp by the ACLU et al, and for that reason it's almost certainly a Bannon storyline (again, Breitbart had a black crime section on their website for this reason), but they'll do it for a bit.

As to money, I don't think it's a ton. 

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I don't see much of a point to publicizing where they live, but yes, this has excellent propaganda potential. The other possible use for it is to minimize situations like the one with the recently deported criminal who had committed the crime years ago and was allowed to stay in the US.

You'll have to be a smidgen more specific on what you're talking about. 

As to not seeing a point in publicizing where they live - you don't see the point? Really? Huh. They'll do this only in sanctuary cities (or at least primarily ones) showing how they have such horrible crime because of the sanctuary cities. They'll use it to cause fear specifically there. And they'll potentially use it to cause vigiliantism. 

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11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

My suspicion is that it is for anyone who is desired to be shamed. So any muslim, any refugee, any immigrant (illegal or otherwise), etc. It's deliberately vague and open-ended.

The exact phrase used by Secretary Kelly is "removable aliens" so I suspect at least permanent residents are exempt.

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

For that reason it'll almost certainly get beaten to a pulp by the ACLU et al

Again, Kelly says: "The liaison will facilitate engagement with the victims and their families to ensure, to the extent permitted by law, that they are provided information about the offender, including the offender’s immigration status and custody status, and that their questions and concerns regarding immigration enforcement efforts are addressed." He does have that "to the extent permitted by law" in there and I'm not sure the immigration status of a criminal is protected information.

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

They'll do this only in sanctuary cities (or at least primarily ones) showing how they have such horrible crime because of the sanctuary cities. They'll use it to cause fear specifically there.

I didn't think of that, but it's an excellent idea and I agree with you that it may see some use (although it is also helpful to occasionally point out such crimes in areas where the majority is pro-Trump so as to keep them motivated).

I don't agree with you regarding vigilantism. The animosity among the public in general does not appear to be high enough for encouragement of it by the administration to be politically beneficial and it is always a dangerous game to play regardless.

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1 hour ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Not that I'm defending the prick in any way, but technically he's advocating for ephebophilia. Not that that's a more defensible position.

/pedant

? ephebophilia is attraction to 15-19 year olds. Given the the AOC varies from 12 to 19 there's apparently a lot of debate to be had.

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1 minute ago, Altherion said:

The exact phrase used by Secretary Kelly is "removable aliens" so I suspect at least permanent residents are exempt.

Permanent residents are removable, I believe. Yep, they are; the only rule is that they have to have cause for grounds for deportation, and committing crimes are grounds. 

1 minute ago, Altherion said:

Again, Kelly says: "The liaison will facilitate engagement with the victims and their families to ensure, to the extent permitted by law, that they are provided information about the offender, including the offender’s immigration status and custody status, and that their questions and concerns regarding immigration enforcement efforts are addressed." He does have that "to the extent permitted by law" in there and I'm not sure the immigration status of a criminal is protected information.

I don't see why it wouldn't be. It is illegal to discriminate based on immigration status in jobs, for example. The 'extent permitted by law' is the Bannon speak there, and is going to be the thing that allows them to push it as far as they can. 

1 minute ago, Altherion said:

I didn't think of that, but it's an excellent idea and I agree with you that it may see some use (although it is also helpful to occasionally point out such crimes in areas where the majority is pro-Trump so as to keep them motivated).

That too, but really they'll be more motivated to see the 'horrible crimes' in sanctuary cities. We already see that now, where Governor Brown of California is under attack for spending supposedly $25bn for immigrants in California but didn't spend money on Oroville Dam. It's an obviously bogus claim on a lot of levels (the dam didn't fail because of maintenance, the $25b is wrong and immigrants actually bring in MORE money in California than that anyway) but that's one of the big attack points. 

1 minute ago, Altherion said:

I don't agree with you regarding vigilantism. The animosity among the public in general does not appear to be high enough for encouragement of it by the administration to be politically beneficial and it is always a dangerous game to play regardless.

You're talking about an administration who is going to have Alex Jones as an advisor. They want dangerous games. 

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These superficial similarities threaten to overshadow some of the deeper differences, though. Zeynep Tufekci, a Turkish sociologist and writer at the University of North Carolina, tweeted a string of criticisms about the analogy Friday morning. “Permanent bureaucracy and/or non-electoral institutions diverging with the electoral branch [is] not that uncommon even in liberal democracies,” she wrote. “In the Turkey case, that's not what it means. There was a shadowy, cross-institution occasionally *armed* network conducting killings, etc. So, if people are going to call non electoral institutions stepping up leaking stuff, fine. But it is not ‘deep state’ like in Turkey.

There Is No American 'Deep State'
Experts on Turkish politics say the use of that term misunderstands what it means in Turkey—and the ways that such allegations can be used to enable political repression.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/02/why-its-dangerous-to-talk-about-a-deep-state/517221/

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The Trump administration is considering dropping an indefinite ban on Syrian refugees in a revised executive order on immigration that the president is expected to release this week, according to a source briefed on drafts of the plans.

The revised order, however, would keep in place provisions that temporarily ban the admission of all refugees, including Syrians. It also will temporarily halt the future issuance of visas to people from the same seven predominantly Muslim countries targeted by the legally contentious order it is designed to replace.


Critics fear those temporary bans will effectively turn indefinite. That’s because some, possibly all, of the countries targeted — as well programs for Syrian and other refugees — may not be able to meet the vetting standards that President Donald Trump decides to set to lift the temporary bans. The seven countries are Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Yemen, 

 

Revised Trump executive order may ditch indefinite ban on Syrian refugees

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-immigration-order-revision-235207

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7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't see why it wouldn't be. It is illegal to discriminate based on immigration status in jobs, for example. The 'extent permitted by law' is the Bannon speak there, and is going to be the thing that allows them to push it as far as they can. 

Not sure what you mean about jobs: every job I've ever had has required me to fill out an I-9 form and provide proof of eligibility for employment. To the best of my knowledge, it is in fact illegal not to discriminate based on immigration status when considering employees. I suppose what you mean is that the employer isn't allowed to discriminate against permanent residents and other non-citizens legally authorized to work in the US, but, for the most part, these are not the people the rage is directed against.

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You're talking about an administration who is going to have Alex Jones as an advisor. They want dangerous games. 

I don't think they'll want to play this one, but we'll see.

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