A Burning Brandon (Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire)

[Pain killer Jane]

This caught my attention while I listened to Grey King Episode
 

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The current Lord Drumm, Dunstan, comes to the Kingsmoot on a ship called “the Thunderer,” giving us another Grey King association as well as a possible reference to Odin, because among Odin’s many, many names is “Thunderer.” 

 

And I realized that the one-eyed giant Garth-esque greenseer combined with the Ironborn coming from the sea with a burning brand/sword could be alluding to the Cyclops: Brontes ("thunderer"), Steropes ("lightning") and the "bright" Arges. They were the ones to create Zeus' lightning bolt, Poseidon's Trident, Artemis' bow and arrows made of moonlight, Apollo's bow and arrows of sunrays, and Hades' helm of darkness. They also worked at Hephaestus's forge. These three were sons of Uranus and Gaia. There is also another tribe of cyclops that are herdsmen and sons of Poseidon.  

 

[Pain killer Jane]

You know Bran covered in the feathered mattress and being burned and blackened would be Orelle's eagle and could allude to being tarred and feathered. 

[Pain killer Jane]

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It’s like Michelangelo’s “The Creation of Adam” on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel… but it’s also something like Adam and Eve eating from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil, with greenseers reaching up to steal the fire of the gods and breaking the heavens to do so.  Chew on that for a second!

You give them a finger and they take the whole hand, break the arm and gave the finger back. 

[Pain killer Jane]

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In fact, it seems that this weirwood might be meant to represent Bran – it really should, since Bran is playing the role of the bad little greenseer boy who climbed too high.  You’ll recall that it’s called a young and skinny wierwood, and of course twisted and crooked.  Now compare that to the scene with Jon saying farewell to comatose Bran, a  stick-thin young boy with legs that bent at angles that made Jon sick.  Consider the fact that Bran is so young that he does not fully understand the moral component of skinchanging into Hodor’s body, and seems to be breaking many of the taboos set out for skinchangers, usually motivated by his very understandable desire for mobility and wholeness.

@LmL I found this in the TWOIAF

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The origins of the Citadel are almost as mysterious as those of the Hightower itself. Most credit its founding to the second son of Uthor of the High Tower, Prince Peremore the Twisted. A sickly boy, born with a withered arm and twisted back, Peremore was bedridden for much of his short life but had an insatiable curiosity about the world beyond his window, so he turned to wise men, teachers, priests, healers, and singers, along with a certain number of wizards, alchemists, and sorcerers. It is said the prince had no greater pleasure in life than listening to these scholars argue with one another. When Peremore died, his brother King Urrigon bequeathed a large tract of land beside the Honeywine to "Peremore's pets," that they might establish themselves and continue teaching, learning, and questing after truth. And so they did.

Since he was the son of Uthor of the High Tower, logically we could think that he is also the son of Maris the maid, the daughter of Garth and therefore a greenman and since you speculated that the Hightowers are perhaps descendants of GeotDawnians, then there is your dragon-blooded greenman connection to knowledge. 

[LmL]

56 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

You give them a finger and they take the whole hand, break the arm and gave the finger back. 

Oh ho, that was clever. @ravenous reader did you catch that? PKJ with the clever turn of phrase...

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

You know Bran covered in the feathered mattress and being burned and blackened would be Orelle's eagle and could allude to being tarred and feathered. 

Oh that would actually make for a good Icarus reference, wouldn't it? Burning feathers? 

I think a good name for brand would actually be Fireaven to match with Bloodraven, but it just doesn't have a good ring to it. That's why I called this A Burning Brandon. I was nearly talked off the ledge with "come along and fly on a bran-tastic voyage," ha ha. 

[LmL]

28 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

@LmL I found this in the TWOIAF

Since he was the son of Uthor of the High Tower, logically we could think that he is also the son of Maris the maid, the daughter of Garth and therefore a greenman and since you speculated that the Hightowers are perhaps descendants of GeotDawnians, then there is your dragon-blooded greenman connection to knowledge. 

Yes, and I'm intentionally shying away from all the children of Garth, because I want to do a whole essay on all of them at once. But yeah, it's right there - a GEOTD Maiden and Garth the horned lord, sitting in a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G. First comes blood, then comes fire, then come dragons from the funeral pyre.

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, LmL said:

Oh ho, that was clever. @ravenous reader did you catch that? PKJ with the clever turn of phrase...

 

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Yes, and I'm intentionally shying away from all the children of Garth, because I want to do a whole essay on all of them at once. But yeah, it's right there - a GEOTD Maiden and Garth the horned lord, sitting in a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G. First comes blood, then comes fire, then come dragons from the funeral pyre.

Aha...you're in one of 'those' moods...lol

[Tom Cruise]

3 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And hoar sounds like whore and whores are significant. I mean Jaime keeps referring to Cersei as Queen of Whores and The Sept of Baelor was built on the spot where the House of Kisses existed (and we can't ignore the events of the House Kisses and the moon of the three kings). 
 

Does any of this get us closer to finding out where whores go?

 

[Pain killer Jane]

10 minutes ago, LmL said:

Oh that would actually make for a good Icarus reference, wouldn't it? Burning feathers? 

I think a good name for brand would actually be Fireaven to match with Bloodraven, but it just doesn't have a good ring to it. That's why I called this A Burning Brandon. I was nearly talked off the ledge with "come along and fly on a bran-tastic voyage," ha ha. 

Yup.

Lol I love that title. You could have gone with "To Wish Upon A Star", or "Second star to the right and straight on till morning." 

[LmL]

13 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

Does any of this get us closer to finding out where whores go?

 

A great question, but sadly, I think the answer is no. I mean perhaps they go to a frozen hell, so they can have hoarfrost? I dont really know

[Pain killer Jane]

17 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes, and I'm intentionally shying away from all the children of Garth, because I want to do a whole essay on all of them at once. But yeah, it's right there - a GEOTD Maiden and Garth the horned lord, sitting in a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G. First comes blood, then comes fire, then come dragons from the funeral pyre.

I remember you mentioning it. 

Rock-a-by baby rock-a-by by
On the tree top,
When the wind blows
The cradle will rock.
When the bough breaks,
The cradle will fall,
And down will fall baby
Cradle and all.
Rock-a-bye, baby,
thy cradle is green,
Father's a nobleman,
mother's a queen..

[Tom Cruise]

Just now, LmL said:

A great question, but sadly, I think the answer is no. I mean perhaps they go to a frozen hell, so they can have hoarfrost? I dont really know

Can't whores be considered to 'steal the fire of the gods'?  If you consider sperm as being the 'fire of the gods' used to create life?  And what generally happens to people who do steal the gods fire?  Maybe your response has a layer of accuracy to it.

 

BTW - Love the podcasts.  Keep up the great work.  You've opened up ASOIAF in a whole new way for me... I'm doing another reread armed with the knowledge of your podcasts, and the symbolism jumps out at me literally every single page now.  I should have posted this next comment under the green zombie threads but I'll give it to you here:  You spent a lot of time teaching us all how dead men perhaps do sing songs...  but all you had to do was read page 2.  of the series.  Waymar Royce basically tells us this straight up

----

A Game of Thrones - Prologue:

"Will saw them," Gared said. "If he says they are dead, that's proof enough for me."

Will had known they would drag him into the quarrel sooner or later. He wished it had been later rather than sooner. "My mother told me that dead men sing no songs," he put in.

"My wet nurse said the same thing, Will," Royce replied. "Never believe anything you hear at a woman's tit. There are things to be learned even from the dead." His voice echoed, too loud in the twilit forest.

[Pain killer Jane]

32 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

Does any of this get us closer to finding out where whores go?

 

That is a good question. Perhaps to religion. 

It would be like the joke of going to prison and finding religion. The wall is a prison and now that Jon is alluding to Jesus and the Nights King was sitting there sacrificing. You go to the wall and find burning religion. 

[Bluetiger]

I think I finally found the way to connect ASOIAF to Golden Bough: ASOS, Bran:

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Long they fought, rolling together over roots and stones and fallen leaves and the scattered entrails of the prey, tearing at each other with tooth and claw, breaking apart, circling each round the other, and bolting in to fight again. The prince was larger, and much the stronger, but his cousin had a pack. The female prowled around them closely, snuffing and snarling, and would interpose herself whenever her mate broke off bloodied. From time to time the other wolves would dart in as well, to snap at a leg or an ear when the prince was turned the other way. One angered him so much that he whirled in a black fury and tore out the attacker's throat. After that the others kept their distance.

And as the last red light was filtering through green boughs and golden, the old wolf lay down weary in the dirt, and rolled over to expose his throat and belly. It was submission.

The prince sniffed at him and licked the blood from fur and torn flesh. When the old wolf gave a soft whimper, the direwolf turned away. He was very hungry now, and the prey was his.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

45 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

 

51 minutes ago, LmL said:

A great question, but sadly, I think the answer is no. I mean perhaps they go to a frozen hell, so they can have hoarfrost? I dont really know

Can't whores be considered to 'steal the fire of the gods'?  If you consider sperm as being the 'fire of the gods' used to create life?  And what generally happens to people who do steal the gods fire?  Maybe your response has a layer of accuracy to it.

 

We do get the scene of the grey-green eyed whore teaching the others to read, if I remember correctly. 

@LmL In Dante's inferno, whores go to the 2nd circle of hell for Lust and their souls are blown around in a storm. Helen of Troy's soul is there by the way as well.  

Sorry got my circles mixed up. They go to the 8th circle for fraud and are down in the ditches being whipped by horned demons.

I should insert the line from Identity: "Whores don't get a second chance." 

[TreeFaces]

Lovely and fun to read. Had a jaw dropping moment with this reveal:

"lt looked as if the tree were trying to catch the moon and drag it down into the well. Well, you don’t say.  The weirwood tree is the old gods, as Bran says, and the Old Gods are really the greenseers – and now we can see that the greenseers apparently like to bring down the sun and the moon, to reach up from the underworld and break a hole in the dome of the sky."

 

I am still processing everything and will need to reread but so far this has me pondering how the Moonsingers play into everything. An allegory to seeking divine knowledge and ability?  OR are they seeking to bring down the light of the moon/fire/dragons which would tie in the historical relevance of the Moonsingers and Braavos. 

[hiemal]

18 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Does anyone else get confused by heimal and LmL's similar avatars, or is it just me?

On a more serious note, I find it odd that I've never seen mention of Icarus.  So I'll bring him up.

Icarus and his father, Daedalus, escaped from a labyrinth by wearing wings that Daedalus had constricted out of wax and feathers. Icarus flies too high, melting the wax, and he falls to his death. 

In AGoT Bran II (the same chapter in which Bran falls from the tower), when Bran surveys the Winterfell streets and hills, he describes Winterfell as "a labyrinth."  In Bran's coma dream, the 3EC tells Bran to fly, but in his fear, he says he is just falling.  Eventually, Bran does open his arms and fly.  

 Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.

Death reached for him, screaming.

Bran spread his arms and flew.

As Icarus flew, he didn't realize that the feathers were falling away from his wings.  Eventually, he only had his arms.  He couldn't fly anymore, and despite flapping his arms,  he fell and died.  Bran, however, doesn't need wings to fly and only has to open his arms. An inverse is in play here.  Icarus falls and dies.  Bran falls (from the tower) and lives.  Icarus cannot fly without wings/with only his arms.  Bran (in his coma dream) can fly without wings/with only his arms. 

There is another connection.  The moral of the story of Icarus is to not reach too high.  Don't be too proud.  Don't be too ambitious.  Don't reach too close to the Gods.  Prometheus had the "audacity" to bring the fire of the Gods and give it to man.  Bran symbolically has taken the fire of the (Old) Gods by opening his third eye via his fall. 

I had similar thoughts recently about Bran and Icarus and these followup questions:

Will Bloodraven be his Daedalus? Is his cave the Labyrinth?

[LmL]

42 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

I think I finally found the way to connect ASOIAF to Golden Bough: ASOS, Bran:

 

Bingo! That's a scene where the new Prince of the green has just defeated the old one, who had one eye. Great work blue tiger! Huzzah!

[Pain killer Jane]

18 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Does anyone else get confused by heimal and LmL's similar avatars, or is it just me?

On a more serious note, I find it odd that I've never seen mention of Icarus.  So I'll bring him up.

Icarus and his father, Daedalus, escaped from a labyrinth by wearing wings that Daedalus had constricted out of wax and feathers. Icarus flies too high, melting the wax, and he falls to his death. 

In AGoT Bran II (the same chapter in which Bran falls from the tower), when Bran surveys the Winterfell streets and hills, he describes Winterfell as "a labyrinth."  In Bran's coma dream, the 3EC tells Bran to fly, but in his fear, he says he is just falling.  Eventually, Bran does open his arms and fly.  

 Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.

Death reached for him, screaming.

Bran spread his arms and flew.

As Icarus flew, he didn't realize that the feathers were falling away from his wings.  Eventually, he only had his arms.  He couldn't fly anymore, and despite flapping his arms,  he fell and died.  Bran, however, doesn't need wings to fly and only has to open his arms. An inverse is in play here.  Icarus falls and dies.  Bran falls (from the tower) and lives.  Icarus cannot fly without wings/with only his arms.  Bran (in his coma dream) can fly without wings/with only his arms. 

There is another connection.  The moral of the story of Icarus is to not reach too high.  Don't be too proud.  Don't be too ambitious.  Don't reach too close to the Gods.  Prometheus had the "audacity" to bring the fire of the Gods and give it to man.  Bran symbolically has taken the fire of the (Old) Gods by opening his third eye via his fall. 

@LmL and @Isobel Harper you know I think we may need to examine the dream where Bran sees the dead dreams that have fallen. That could be a labyrinth of sorts especially considering that the original labyrinth was probably littered with dead bodies from the sacrifices every few years.