"That I have not glimpsed" - Bloodraven.

[Macgregor of the North]

I began two threads on this topic last year and something has peaked my interest yet again during a re read of Brans final chapter in ADWD that I was doing for the Bran meddling in the past thread. A comment I'd not read in a wee while as I'm currently on ASOS in the cycle of re reads. 

In my threads I speculate that Bloodraven may possibly be blessed with the gift that certain Targaryens have where they can glimpse what is to come in the future through dreams. He is even later introduced by Coldhands as "Dreamer".

The Mystery Knight:

"There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong."

Here is the particular comment Bloodraven says to Bran:

"The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

"When?" Bran wanted to know.

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow." 

Ok, so here Bloodraven says "That I have not glimpsed", are we right to be assuming he has glimpsed certain other things but he just means that "that" is something he has not glimpsed?. 

Now, because Bloodraven is a kind of super magical type with awesome Old gods worshipping Blackwood blood and also Targaryen blood, I'm never sure where to pin the ability on to if it is indeed true that he has the ability to glimpse things that are to come through dreams/visions.

Is it some sort of greendreams prophetic ability like the Ghost of High Heart and Jojen, or is it (like I speculated in my other threads) the Targaryen "gift" he spoke of in TMK. Or is it a combination of both?.

I'm reluctant to think that simply because Bloodraven is a Greenseer, he can have clear visions of the future whenever he pleases as that's a bit too easy for the story I think, but I think he may have the ability, like we have seen others in the story have, to receive glimpses of things that are to come but they are likely visions/dreams to be wary of as they can be misleading such as Melisandres, Jojens or the GOHH's.

What do others think, does anybody think that Bloodraven will prove to have the ability to glimpse things that are to come through dreams/visions. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I began two threads on this topic last year and something has peaked my interest yet again during a re read of Brans final chapter in ADWD that I was doing for the Bran meddling in the past thread. A comment I'd not read in a wee while as I'm currently on ASOS in the cycle of re reads. 

In my threads I speculate that Bloodraven may possibly be blessed with the gift that certain Targaryens have where they can glimpse what is to come in the future through dreams. He is even later introduced by Coldhands as "Dreamer".

The Mystery Knight:

"There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong."

Here is the particular comment Bloodraven says to Bran:

"The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

"When?" Bran wanted to know.

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow." 

Ok, so here Bloodraven says "That I have not glimpsed", are we right to be assuming he has glimpsed certain other things but he just means that "that" is something he has not glimpsed?. 

Now, because Bloodraven is a kind of super magical type with awesome Old gods worshipping Blackwood blood and also Targaryen blood, I'm never sure where to pin the ability on to if it is indeed true that he has the ability to glimpse things that are to come through dreams/visions.

Is it some sort of greendreams prophetic ability like the Ghost of High Heart and Jojen, or is it (like I speculated in my other threads) the Targaryen "gift" he spoke of in TMK. Or is it a combination of both?.

I'm reluctant to think that simply because Bloodraven is a Greenseer, he can have clear visions of the future whenever he pleases as that's a bit too easy for the story I think, but I think he may have the ability, like we have seen others in the story have, to receive glimpses of things that are to come but they are likely visions/dreams to be wary of as they can be misleading such as Melisandres, Jojens or the GOHH's.

What do others think, does anybody think that Bloodraven will prove to have the ability to glimpse things that are to come through dreams/visions. 

If greenseers can step outside of time, as we are led to believe, then it seems they can look both back into the past, and into the myriad possible futures. So I link it to his greenseer skills, primarily. The Targaryen dragondreams are far more limited.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

If greenseers can step outside of time, as we are led to believe, then it seems they can look both back into the past, and into the myriad possible futures. So I link it to his greenseer skills, primarily. The Targaryen dragondreams are far more limited.

The Targaryen gift is not just about Dragons though if we remember correctly. Daemon II Blackfyre dreams of Dunk as a Kingsguard and also dreamed of his twin brothers dying. These are quite clear visions, perhaps clearer than Jojens dreams and most of the GOHH's. 

If we tie it to BR being a Greenseer then it will surely have the same uncertainty attached to it that the other prophetic instances we have seen have. The word glimpsed makes it seem like he is given little to work with, like the Targ or green dreams.

With many more Novellas due that will surely involve Bloodraven at certain times, and also the last two main books to come, I'd like a bit more information on if Bloodraven has this skill and how he thinks he has it.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The Targaryen gift is not just about Dragons though if we remember correctly. Daemon II Blackfyre dreams of Dunk as a Kingsguard and also dreamed of his twin brothers dying. These are quite clear visions, perhaps clearer than Jojens dreams and most of the GOHH's. 

If we tie it to BR being a Greenseer then it will surely have the same uncertainty attached to it that the other prophetic instances we have seen have. The word glimpsed makes it seem like he is given little to work with, like the Targ or green dreams.

With many more Novellas due that will surely involve Bloodraven at certain times, and also the last two main books to come, I'd like a bit more information on if Bloodraven has this skill and how he thinks he has it.

I didn't mean to imply that they are only about dragons, and perhaps I used the term incorrectly. I merely labelled the Targaryen "Dreamer" ability - which we first read about with Daenerys the Dreamer or some such name who predicted the Doom of Valyria - as "Dragondreaming".

To distinguish it from greendreaming such as displayed by Jojen. I expect that Dragondreaming is very similar to Jojen's Greendreaming Gift. Although it appears to happen less frequently. For example, we know of only a very few visions from each Dragondreamer over the course of their lives.

In any case, I believe that Greenseers have far greater access to the river of time. And if they can access it in the past, it seems likely they can view into parts of the future too. And as stated by the likes of Lord Varys, Bloodraven is actually a pretty weak Greenseer. So one would expect Bran, when he reaches the fullness of his power, to have far greater abilities to see the future than Bloodraven has/had.

[XIIIsnow]

Well, I am not sure which ability of BR's we had to thank for it, but I was somehow convinced that he was "calling" Bran, because he saw Bran's future, because it's not just the first greenseer he could put his hands on that he called, but Bran specifically. So, I never asked myself about it, but I suppose that Targ's bastards, are also able to have glimpses of the future

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I can't remember which thread it was...but a couple of us were talking about the same basic gift from each of the kinds of magic. Green/earth dreams for Bran/Jojen/Bloodraven. Red/fire dreams for the Targaryens. Blue/water or ice dreams for Patchface and Euron maybe. Same thing, but different magic in which is it rooted. Bloodraven may have both green and red abilities due to his Targ and Blackwood blood...which means Jon and Dany might have dual magic as well.

[cgrav]

I would take it to mean that Bloodraven will die before Bran's greensight is fully developed. The mentor always dies before the student is ready.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

36 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I would take it to mean that Bloodraven will die before Bran's greensight is fully developed. The mentor always dies before the student is ready.

Say it isn't so!  But I suppose as long as Bran knows enough to help defeat the Others I suppose that will be enough.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I can't remember which thread it was...but a couple of us were talking about the same basic gift from each of the kinds of magic. Green/earth dreams for Bran/Jojen/Bloodraven. Red/fire dreams for the Targaryens. Blue/water or ice dreams for Patchface and Euron maybe. Same thing, but different magic in which is it rooted. Bloodraven may have both green and red abilities due to his Targ and Blackwood blood...which means Jon and Dany might have dual magic as well.

I've actually expanded on that a bit:

 

[cgrav]

Upon further consideration, this might actually be a metatextual reference to WoW's release date. 

[Curled Finger]

Ah the magic in the world of ice and fire.  I have some very basic presumptions about our magic in story.   There are the base magics--to warg, necromancy, clairvoyance, skin changing and extended life span.   I'm sure I overlooked many as this is off the top of my pointy head.   Beyond base magic is enhanced or subcategorized magic like base necromancy is making a wight but advanced/enhanced necromancy makes...spirits or something like Beric or LSH.  With this in mind I consider Bloodraven enjoyed the power of warg through his mother and the power of foresight through his father.   In the mingling of the bloodlines Bloodraven is a singular greenseer.  Would this be true if BR's pop was a Bolton or Celtigar?  I doubt it.  He gets the dragon dreams which are a lens on the future that is clarified and magnified maybe even weakened in some areas by the greensight.  These prophetic abilities play off each other and I would imagine make BR an astoundingly excellent prognosticator.   If Jon ever got to really dreaming he could maybe see far and wide in dreams but for now he's got the crypts to deal with.   

[Eden-Mackenzie]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I can't remember which thread it was...but a couple of us were talking about the same basic gift from each of the kinds of magic. Green/earth dreams for Bran/Jojen/Bloodraven. Red/fire dreams for the Targaryens. Blue/water or ice dreams for Patchface and Euron maybe. Same thing, but different magic in which is it rooted. Bloodraven may have both green and red abilities due to his Targ and Blackwood blood...which means Jon and Dany might have dual magic as well.

So would Arya's and Jon's wolf dreams be green/earth or blue/ice? Or are they something different since they aren't really prophetic? (Sorry I know this is more off topic than it really should be but I'm curious) 

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I didn't mean to imply that they are only about dragons, and perhaps I used the term incorrectly. I merely labelled the Targaryen "Dreamer" ability - which we first read about with Daenerys the Dreamer or some such name who predicted the Doom of Valyria - as "Dragondreaming".

To distinguish it from greendreaming such as displayed by Jojen. I expect that Dragondreaming is very similar to Jojen's Greendreaming Gift. Although it appears to happen less frequently. For example, we know of only a very few visions from each Dragondreamer over the course of their lives.

In any case, I believe that Greenseers have far greater access to the river of time. And if they can access it in the past, it seems likely they can view into parts of the future too. And as stated by the likes of Lord Varys, Bloodraven is actually a pretty weak Greenseer. So one would expect Bran, when he reaches the fullness of his power, to have far greater abilities to see the future than Bloodraven has/had.

I get what you mean FNR. 

Yes the Targaryen instances of the gift seem to be quite few in the grand scheme. Infact it's maybe more of a Novella heavy thing. That's where we have had the juicer descriptions of the instances. 

I guess what I'm really trying to get to the guts of, is Bloodravens ability before he got to the cave and became wed to the trees himself. I'd really like to know how much glimpses he was having of things to come (if any, although I like to think he was), and what they were showing him and if he could interpret them well enough. 

Daenys saw clearly Valyrias destruction by fire 12 years before it happened and became forever known as the "Dreamer". One of the titles Bloodraven later acquires in life. I'd really like to know if Bloodraven was receiving dream visions throughout his younger years. 

I certainly sway to the idea he was and they involved Dunk and his lines importance in the future well being of Westeros. Isn't it a detail worth noting that the two other Targ dreamers in the Novella both dreamed of Dunk too?. 

Maybe he was singled out as important to the Targaryens and the role they think they need to play in the preservation of mankind so for some reason he is appearing in Targ dreams. We know how interested certain Targs were about the Prince that was promised Prophecy and how that is directly connected to the return of the Long Night. 

Im seriously thinking that Bloodraven has glimpsed throughout his life just how important Dunk and his future line will be, right from the first day he saw Dunk in Kings Landing I've felt there was something there. 

THE SWORN SWORD:

"Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip. His pallid skin and bone-white hair made him look a living corpse. Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin. He stared so hard that Bloodraven felt it. The king's sorcerer had turned to study him as he went by. He had one eye, and that one red. The other was an empty socket, the gift Bittersteel had given him upon the Redgrass Field. Yet it seemed to Dunk that both eyes had looked right through his skin, down to his very soul."

I think there's a chance Bloodraven has foreseen things throughout his life like some of Dunks actions with young Egg. His saving of unborn baby Rhaegar at Summerhall who I think many were expecting was going to be the actual PTWP and some thought afterward that he certainly was, also his union with Nan and the importance of the future descendant Hodor. 

These things and possibly more I think Bloodraven may have glimpsed and I hope the Novellas will shed light. 

I went off on a bit of crackpot there I'll admit, but I believe there is enough in the books for me to form these speculations. 

[LindsayLohan]

8 hours ago, cgrav said:

Upon further consideration, this might actually be a metatextual reference to WoW's release date. 

BAZINGA

I award you one internet.

[Macgregor of the North]

Bump. I'll be back to this thread to reply to the posts from others. 

[Bonkers]

13 hours ago, cgrav said:

I would take it to mean that Bloodraven will die before Bran's greensight is fully developed. The mentor always dies before the student is ready.

I tend to agree with this thought.  He perhaps may not be able to glimpse the time Bran will be ready because he has not seen his own death, and that Bran will be forced into taking the 'position' only because he has to. 

 

Perhaps BR is too "tired" now as he has been dependent on the tree so long, and he relies on the trees too much, meaning he no longer has the strength of free will to dream in the usual way/see prophetic visions.  He only sees what he can through the wiernet.

[Macgregor of the North]

16 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

Well, I am not sure which ability of BR's we had to thank for it, but I was somehow convinced that he was "calling" Bran, because he saw Bran's future, because it's not just the first greenseer he could put his hands on that he called, but Bran specifically. So, I never asked myself about it, but I suppose that Targ's bastards, are also able to have glimpses of the future

So you lean to it being the Targ gift he receives his glimpses from. Interesting. I have leaned to that myself quite a bit in my other threads on this topic although I'm not 100% set until more info comes through. 

On Bran, I wonder at what stage did BR know that Bran was "the one". He has been watching and waiting for Bran:

ADWD BRAN II:

"I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

But I wonder exactly when did he know that Bran was "the Brandon Stark" that he was waiting for and how he found that out. I think earlier in life he learned that his fate would be to help train a cripple as a Greenseer for the good of the realm but I'd love to know the details of how this was revealed to BR. 

[Macgregor of the North]

16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I can't remember which thread it was...but a couple of us were talking about the same basic gift from each of the kinds of magic. Green/earth dreams for Bran/Jojen/Bloodraven. Red/fire dreams for the Targaryens. Blue/water or ice dreams for Patchface and Euron maybe. Same thing, but different magic in which is it rooted. Bloodraven may have both green and red abilities due to his Targ and Blackwood blood...which means Jon and Dany might have dual magic as well.

I like the green red and blue angle, the books are certainly heavy on those colours so it's a good way to look at it. I'd throw the GOHH in as a big hitter for the green crew also. I like the idea of Bloodraven having the gift thrust on him from both his Blackwood blood and his Targ blood, but their being an uncertainty about his visions. Like something he struggled to understand as he lived his life before the cave and the tree but they possibly guided him in a way to his destiny/fate. Of course by now it's obvious I believe Dunk featured in those dreams/visions. 

[XIIIsnow]

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

So you lean to it being the Targ gift he receives his glimpses from. Interesting. I have leaned to that myself quite a bit in my other threads on this topic although I'm not 100% set until more info comes through. 

On Bran, I wonder at what stage did BR know that Bran was "the one". He has been watching and waiting for Bran:

ADWD BRAN II:

"I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

But I wonder exactly when did he know that Bran was "the Brandon Stark" that he was waiting for and how he found that out. I think earlier in life he learned that his fate would be to help train a cripple as a Greenseer for the good of the realm but I'd love to know the details of how this was revealed to BR. 

That would be awesome, but if GRRM is going to fulfill all of our wishes, I'm afraid that two books are going to be small, even with thousands of pages  he said somewhere that he is not going to solve the whereabouts of every living person in 7K as I recall  but BR is not some unimportant character and we can hope that we will read more about him  we will have our bittersweet ending

As to Bran, as being the One, I am not sure anymore, but If I recall correctly, there is some idea on this forum that BR was going to the wall and beyond because he was waiting for Brandon Stark, but didn't know which one - Brandon the Ned's brother, or Brandon the Ned's son...but I can't put my finger on...maybe someone else will remember it.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah the magic in the world of ice and fire.  I have some very basic presumptions about our magic in story.   There are the base magics--to warg, necromancy, clairvoyance, skin changing and extended life span.   I'm sure I overlooked many as this is off the top of my pointy head.   Beyond base magic is enhanced or subcategorized magic like base necromancy is making a wight but advanced/enhanced necromancy makes...spirits or something like Beric or LSH.  With this in mind I consider Bloodraven enjoyed the power of warg through his mother and the power of foresight through his father.   In the mingling of the bloodlines Bloodraven is a singular greenseer.  Would this be true if BR's pop was a Bolton or Celtigar?  I doubt it.  He gets the dragon dreams which are a lens on the future that is clarified and magnified maybe even weakened in some areas by the greensight.  These prophetic abilities play off each other and I would imagine make BR an astoundingly excellent prognosticator.   If Jon ever got to really dreaming he could maybe see far and wide in dreams but for now he's got the crypts to deal with.   

Some cool thoughts here. Ive always wondered what BR meant when he tells Bran "that his blood makes him a Greenseer". Is it Brans Stark blood or his own Blackwood blood from his Great Grandmother Melantha. It would very interesting if it's the Blackwood blood that was the true key to Brans Greensight but the fact he is a Stark is important for some other reason why they actually need Brandon Stark in the preparation for the impending return of the Long Night and all that jazz.

So you place BR's ability to glimpse things to come from the Targ blood, which I like, and speculate that his "green" blood from the Blackwood side may even possibly weaken his foresight ability? Ive never thought about that. I had wondered, like you do also, that the two gifts would mingle and perhaps make his visions/dreams more vivid or powerful if that's even possible. 

I cant seem to let this topic go. I love pondering Bloodraven and how he himself would think on these glimpses and what kind of effect they would have on him. It's a shame we won't get a BR POV. We should get more interaction with him in the Novellas though.