Why the ToJ showdown ever happened?

[XIIIsnow]

I just red a bunch of topics considering ToJ and specially how the hell Ned knew where to find Lyanna and who told him. I know that ToJ was posted like zillion times, but I have some question that I didn't find answer and hope that you are going to help me with it.

1. What happened to Robert during the RR? One of the reasons for RR was alleged kidnapping and raping of Lyanna by Rhaegar. If he was so madly in love, why didn't he was there with his hammer to knock down the ToJ brick by brick ? I assume, that is because Ned never told him about his plans to go after Lyanna with his northernmen, until it was actually over. We know that Ned and Robert was quarreling about Targaryen children and that book said they were at piece only when Lyanna died, because of their loss. So, Robert probably didn't know that Ned left after lifting the siege of Storms End to Dorne. 

2. Is it because there were no time for informing Robert, or Ned did his duty at Storms End and left, angry with his friend and now king Robert? 

3. If KG was at ToJ to protect the child, why the hell they fight with Ned who is that child uncle. Everyone in the world knew how much he loves his sister, and it's hard for me to think that KG were afraid for Lyanna and her child? Even if they feared that Ned is going to give the child to Robert, out of his duty and honor, they actually never tried to talk to him. The only answer I can come up with is that KG fought Ned and his men, not because protecting the child and mother, but because they were bound to king (Aerys/Rhaegar) and they were willing to fight to the bitter end, even if they knew that war is over, that most of Targaryens (at least those capable of rule) were dead. 

4. I was never sure how does the KG works? Is it like NW? In that case they had to obey their new king, regardless how he came to the throne. Or were they in bond with king personally, Aerys in this case? It's all very confusing  - we have Jamie, a kingslayer, a false brother on one hand, and Barristan who fought, lost and stayed in Robert's guard.

5. I saw on other topics, that some people think that Rhaegar himself provided Ned an info of Lyanna's whereabouts. In that case, if it's even possible, his KG would have to let him pass. 

What do u guys think of it?

It is quite possible, this was already addressed somewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it. I am also leaving the possibility that I missed something in the books, which were obvious to others.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 and 2. I think Ned had inside information and was going to tell Robert right up until that "dragonspawn" comment. Robert's grief over Lyanna's abduction and subsequent alleged abuse didn't keep him from bedding every whore in Stoney Sept. 

3. I don't think everyone knew how much Ned loved Lyanna. The 3 KG weren't there for the fight in the throne room. I don't think they were worried about Ned harming Lyanna, but they might worry about one of the main leaders of the rebellion turning over the last Targaryen baby to the new king. It's possible they did know that Elia and the children were killed, but they couldn't have known that Ned had nothing to do with that. Not meaning to cast aspersions here but the KG are known for their fighting ability, not their intelligence. They put duty ahead of all else and to their minds, the baby in the tower was probably their king. Fight first and ask questions later seems like a natural response for them. But...keep in mind that we only have Ned's dream when he was ill and medicated. There might have been more of a parley that GRRM just hasn't let us know about yet.

4. The KG in general did pass from one king to the next, but in their history it was a matter of the new king basically inheriting them. Robert's win changed things. Barristan was allowed to stay, Jaime was pardoned and allowed to stay. The others if they'd lived would probably have been offered a place on Robert's KG, but it's questionable whether they'd take it...especially Hightower, Dayne, and Whent.

5. Nah. I think it's more likely that Ashara was in on it. Whether there was anything between her and Ned or not, she's the most likely option for getting word to Ned. Or Varys could have pulled something behind the scenes so that Ned didn't know he was the source of the information. Rhaegar didn't have time and probably wouldn't have risked Ned telling Robert where Lyanna was.

[XIIIsnow]

9 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

1 and 2. I think Ned had inside information and was going to tell Robert right up until that "dragonspawn" comment. Robert's grief over Lyanna's abduction and subsequent alleged abuse didn't keep him from bedding every whore in Stoney Sept. 

3. I don't think everyone knew how much Ned loved Lyanna. The 3 KG weren't there for the fight in the throne room. I don't think they were worried about Ned harming Lyanna, but they might worry about one of the main leaders of the rebellion turning over the last Targaryen baby to the new king. It's possible they did know that Elia and the children were killed, but they couldn't have known that Ned had nothing to do with that. Not meaning to cast aspersions here but the KG are known for their fighting ability, not their intelligence. They put duty ahead of all else and to their minds, the baby in the tower was probably their king. Fight first and ask questions later seems like a natural response for them. But...keep in mind that we only have Ned's dream when he was ill and medicated. There might have been more of a parley that GRRM just hasn't let us know about yet.

4. The KG in general did pass from one king to the next, but in their history it was a matter of the new king basically inheriting them. Robert's win changed things. Barristan was allowed to stay, Jaime was pardoned and allowed to stay. The others if they'd lived would probably have been offered a place on Robert's KG, but it's questionable whether they'd take it...especially Hightower, Dayne, and Whent.

5. Nah. I think it's more likely that Ashara was in on it. Whether there was anything between her and Ned or not, she's the most likely option for getting word to Ned. Or Varys could have pulled something behind the scenes so that Ned didn't know he was the source of the information. Rhaegar didn't have time and probably wouldn't have risked Ned telling Robert where Lyanna was.

1. and 2. Precisely, I dont think Lynna would have better life with Robert than Cersei did. OK, maybe a bit, because he never loved Cersei like he did Lyanna, but I don't see decreasing number of bastards in 7K.

3. I can see what u think, but still I cant imagine KG telling each other: Hey, there's our new baby king's uncle, Lets kill him and all of his friends. Yes, I expect that more words were exchange, offers and denials,..It is quite possible that those three had no clue about the ongoing war, because they are in the middle of nowhere with no rookery. Hightower is the last person bringing the news about it, and it was before the Trident. So, it is also possible that they don't know all the Targs are dead and Robert is new king. 

4. It's highly probable that they wouldn't stay in Robert's KG, but I cant see them fighting the king's orders or people. Thanks for the info. I assume that problem is in changing of dynasty, or in the way of its changing (by coup).

5. I agree that it was no Rhaegar who told Ned about her whereabouts, it would be completely psychedelic, like: Oh crap, I forgot to tell my KG that old Neddy is cool. But still, I am not convinced with Ashara and her role

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 minute ago, XIIIsnow said:

1. and 2. Precisely, I dont think Lynna would have better life with Robert than Cersei did. OK, maybe a bit, because he never loved Cersei like he did Lyanna, but I don't see decreasing number of bastards in 7K.

3. I can see what u think, but still I cant imagine KG telling each other: Hey, there's our new baby king's uncle, Lets kill him and all of his friends. Yes, I expect that more words were exchange, offers and denials,..It is quite possible that those three had no clue about the ongoing war, because they are in the middle of nowhere with no rookery. Hightower is the last person bringing the news about it, and it was before the Trident. So, it is also possible that they don't know all the Targs are dead and Robert is new king. 

4. It's highly probable that they wouldn't stay in Robert's KG, but I cant see them fighting the king's orders or people. Thanks for the info. I assume that problem is in changing of dynasty, or in the way of its changing (by coup).

5. I agree that it was no Rhaegar who told Ned about her whereabouts, it would be completely psychedelic, like: Oh crap, I forgot to tell my KG that old Neddy is cool. But still, I am not convinced with Ashara and her role

3. Well Aerys dispatched Hightower to get Rhaegar, so clearly the White Bull knew where he'd been hiding. The question is did Gerold tell anyone else where the ToJ was. If he did, they could have gotten news. OR, it's possible that one of them went periodically to the nearest keep (I believe it's High Hermitage, where Arthur had relatives) to get news. I'd have to reread that scene but I think Ned mentioned the Trident and they said that Rhaegar would still be alive if they'd been there.  Or it was that Aerys would still be alive. Either way they know what happened. One of them even says "Woe to the Usurper" if they'd been at the Trident so clearly they know that Robert is king, which alone proves they knew Rhaegar and Aerys were dead.

4. Yes that would be it. Queen Visenya created the KG and they didn't have to deal with any dynasty changes until Robert.

5. I'm not convinced about Ashara either but she's got to be important somehow other than as a red herring for Jon's mother. Too many mentions of the family and of her for there not to be something. And I couldn't think of anyone else in Dorne who would be sending any messages to Ned. I suppose an argument could be made for Doran getting word to Ned. But if he'd known about the ToJ he would have had his men there castrating Rhaegar long before the Trident.

[XIIIsnow]

8 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

3. Well Aerys dispatched Hightower to get Rhaegar, so clearly the White Bull knew where he'd been hiding. The question is did Gerold tell anyone else where the ToJ was. If he did, they could have gotten news. OR, it's possible that one of them went periodically to the nearest keep (I believe it's High Hermitage, where Arthur had relatives) to get news. I'd have to reread that scene but I think Ned mentioned the Trident and they said that Rhaegar would still be alive if they'd been there.  Or it was that Aerys would still be alive. Either way they know what happened. One of them even says "Woe to the Usurper" if they'd been at the Trident so clearly they know that Robert is king, which alone proves they knew Rhaegar and Aerys were dead.

4. Yes that would be it. Queen Visenya created the KG and they didn't have to deal with any dynasty changes until Robert.

5. I'm not convinced about Ashara either but she's got to be important somehow other than as a red herring for Jon's mother. Too many mentions of the family and of her for there not to be something. And I couldn't think of anyone else in Dorne who would be sending any messages to Ned. I suppose an argument could be made for Doran getting word to Ned. But if he'd known about the ToJ he would have had his men there castrating Rhaegar long before the Trident.

5. I know, I red a bunch of posts considering her as Ned's informant. And that would be another cool addition to the fact that Ned got back to her and gave her a Dawn, as a token of his grief about killing her brother. Not that I am not believing that Ned did that because he was an honorable, but still. But, why he had to get his info from Dorne. GRRM don't tell us where Ned was between the Storms End and ToJ. He could pick up the info in bunch of different places. And I don't buy the idea that he was going to Sumerhall, because as I recall, it was completely in ruins and abandoned from the day when Rhaegar was born. 

Varys is another thing, but I can't see why would he do that ? He don't have reasons to care about the Starks at all. Even if he didn't know that Lyanna is with child, why would he give such information to Ned, and not to Robert? Varys as Varys, he always had and will have an agenda of his own, but I can't see through this one at all. 

[XIIIsnow]

and one more thing I forgot...it's about the quote of Ned's and Arthur's conversation at ToJ. I don't have precise quote, but something like: No, now it ends, said Ned with sadness in his voice. Well, he could be sad for a myriad of reasons, but it could be because in order to get to his sister, he has to kill Ashara's brother. 

This is going more into your direction than mine, but hey, we're talking...:)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 minute ago, XIIIsnow said:

5. I know, I red a bunch of posts considering her as Ned's informant. And that would be another cool addition to the fact that Ned got back to her and gave her a Dawn, as a token of his grief about killing her brother. Not that I am not believing that Ned did that because he was an honorable, but still. But, why he had to get his info from Dorne. GRRM don't tell us where Ned was between the Storms End and ToJ. He could pick up the info in bunch of different places. And I don't buy the idea that he was going to Sumerhall, because as I recall, it was completely in ruins and abandoned from the day when Rhaegar was born. 

Varys is another thing, but I can't see why would he do that ? He don't have reasons to care about the Starks at all. Even if he didn't know that Lyanna is with child, why would he give such information to Ned, and not to Robert? Varys as Varys, he always had and will have an agenda of his own, but I can't see through this one at all. 

I figure the info is most likely to come from Dorne because that's where the ToJ is. The people most likely to know that's where Rhaegar took Lyanna would be the locals.

Varys doesn't have to care about the Starks. He would care about a Targaryen baby though, if he knew. He would obviously give the info to Ned instead of Robert because of Robert's "dragonspawn" comment. Varys' agenda seems to be Targaryen restoration, so yes I believe he would tell Ned where to find Lyanna and the baby. And if he didn't know about the baby, which is possible, then there's no reason not to tell Ned where to find Lyanna. Not telling Robert at that point would either be because Varys thinks a baby is possible (after all she's been gone about a year and everybody seems to be of the opinion that Rhaegar was sleeping with her) or it's just plain spite because he doesn't like Robert. 

1 minute ago, XIIIsnow said:

and one more thing I forgot...it's about the quote of Ned's and Arthur's conversation at ToJ. I don't have precise quote, but something like: No, now it ends, said Ned with sadness in his voice. Well, he could be sad for a myriad of reasons, but it could be because in order to get to his sister, he has to kill Ashara's brother. 

This is going more into your direction than mine, but hey, we're talking...:)

I think Ned would feel that way about killing any good and honorable man. Or it could be that Ned expected to get his butt kicked even with six of his buddies to help. One way or another, there was going to be a lot of blood spilled and one side had to be completely killed. 

[XIIIsnow]

2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I figure the info is most likely to come from Dorne because that's where the ToJ is. The people most likely to know that's where Rhaegar took Lyanna would be the locals.

Varys doesn't have to care about the Starks. He would care about a Targaryen baby though, if he knew. He would obviously give the info to Ned instead of Robert because of Robert's "dragonspawn" comment. Varys' agenda seems to be Targaryen restoration, so yes I believe he would tell Ned where to find Lyanna and the baby. And if he didn't know about the baby, which is possible, then there's no reason not to tell Ned where to find Lyanna. Not telling Robert at that point would either be because Varys thinks a baby is possible (after all she's been gone about a year and everybody seems to be of the opinion that Rhaegar was sleeping with her) or it's just plain spite because he doesn't like Robert. 

I think Ned would feel that way about killing any good and honorable man. Or it could be that Ned expected to get his butt kicked even with six of his buddies to help. One way or another, there was going to be a lot of blood spilled and one side had to be completely killed. 

But if Varys knew and cared about Targaryen baby, how come he never did anything to include Jon in his ambitions of restoring Targaryens. He had plans for Vyserys, Danny and (f)Aegon, but never for Jon, or at least we don't know about them.

I don't know what to think about Ned's actions. He did returned the Dawn, but he didn't returned the bones of Barbra Dustin husband  and he was obviously someone who Ned trusted, because he was one of only a few companions at ToJ...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 minutes ago, XIIIsnow said:

But if Varys knew and cared about Targaryen baby, how come he never did anything to include Jon in his ambitions of restoring Targaryens. He had plans for Vyserys, Danny and (f)Aegon, but never for Jon, or at least we don't know about them.

I don't know what to think about Ned's actions. He did returned the Dawn, but he didn't returned the bones of Barbra Dustin husband  and he was obviously someone who Ned trusted, because he was one of only a few companions at ToJ...

Varys is hard to figure out, but I can see at least two options, which actually work well together. 1) Jon is a bastard so far as anyone knows, so it makes more sense to take the legitimate Targs and put one of them on the throne. 2) Jon is his ace in the hole. He knows Ned will keep him safe, and it's best if no one else knows that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Varys being involved would be a huge giveaway that something is up with that Snow kid.

Well returning Dawn was the right thing to do, and Ned always does the right thing. House Dayne claims to have had that sword for 10,000 years, and it's no ordinary sword. Also it's not like he won it in a poker game...though that method of confrontation would have meant less bloodshed, in theory (I've never played Dornish Hold 'Em so I'm not sure  ). If Ned had had the Starks' original Ice and Arthur had killed him, I think Arthur would have given Ned's sword to Lyanna, or taken it to Winterfell for Robb. It's a courtesy thing. Plus it gave Ned an excuse to go to Starfall which may be important for other reasons.

Not taking any of the mens' bones home could be a way of hiding something. Makes me wonder if he really took Lyanna's bones home or if he took something else and claimed it was his sister in that trunk. And that brings us to the Tomb of Requirement.

[UnFit Finlay]

Regarding Number 3.

Rhaenys and Aegon were murdered in Robert's name and he refused to condemn those murders. If I'm one of the Kingsguard then there's no way I'm trusting anybody on Robert's side with an infant, Uncle or not. Ned was sworn to obey Robert and there's no way they could know that he'd be willing to break that oath for his sister and her child.

It's a similar thing for Willem Darry. Stannis wasn't exactly known for murdering children but he was Robert's brother and that side couldn't be trusted with Viserys and Daenerys.

I'd imagine Ned knew it too. Robb certainly did, since it was the reason he executed Rickard Karstark.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, XIIIsnow said:

I just red a bunch of topics considering ToJ and specially how the hell Ned knew where to find Lyanna and who told him. I know that ToJ was posted like zillion times, but I have some question that I didn't find answer and hope that you are going to help me with it.

1. What happened to Robert during the RR? One of the reasons for RR was alleged kidnapping and raping of Lyanna by Rhaegar. If he was so madly in love, why didn't he was there with his hammer to knock down the ToJ brick by brick ? I assume, that is because Ned never told him about his plans to go after Lyanna with his northernmen, until it was actually over. We know that Ned and Robert was quarreling about Targaryen children and that book said they were at piece only when Lyanna died, because of their loss. So, Robert probably didn't know that Ned left after lifting the siege of Storms End to Dorne. 

2. Is it because there were no time for informing Robert, or Ned did his duty at Storms End and left, angry with his friend and now king Robert? 

3. If KG was at ToJ to protect the child, why the hell they fight with Ned who is that child uncle. Everyone in the world knew how much he loves his sister, and it's hard for me to think that KG were afraid for Lyanna and her child? Even if they feared that Ned is going to give the child to Robert, out of his duty and honor, they actually never tried to talk to him. The only answer I can come up with is that KG fought Ned and his men, not because protecting the child and mother, but because they were bound to king (Aerys/Rhaegar) and they were willing to fight to the bitter end, even if they knew that war is over, that most of Targaryens (at least those capable of rule) were dead. 

4. I was never sure how does the KG works? Is it like NW? In that case they had to obey their new king, regardless how he came to the throne. Or were they in bond with king personally, Aerys in this case? It's all very confusing  - we have Jamie, a kingslayer, a false brother on one hand, and Barristan who fought, lost and stayed in Robert's guard.

5. I saw on other topics, that some people think that Rhaegar himself provided Ned an info of Lyanna's whereabouts. In that case, if it's even possible, his KG would have to let him pass. 

What do u guys think of it?

It is quite possible, this was already addressed somewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it. I am also leaving the possibility that I missed something in the books, which were obvious to others.

1.  There is no evidence that Lyanna was ever in the tower of joy.

2.  There would have been plenty of time for Ned to have told Robert.  Once again, we don't know if Eddard went to the tower of joy to find Lyanna.  My guess is Lyanna's death bed scene had already occurred before Ned set off for the tower of joy. 

3.  The tower of joy was probably not to protect a child.  If the tower of joy was named for Rhaegar's greatest love, than the tower of joy was probably intended for the same purpose that led to the Summerhall tragedy, the hatching of dragon(s).  It is very possible that one or more children were due to be sacrificed at the tower of joy to bring about this result.

4.  Yes, the Kingsguard had to obey the dictates of the king (and/or possibly the prince) no matter how much they may have morally disagreed with the decision, because to paraphrase Gerold, they swore an oath.

5.  I'm not sure when Eddard would have had a chance to speak with Rhaegar.

 

 

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

1 - Once he was crowned, there would have been much to do in regards to getting things back in order after the war. With that and him being mad at Ned it makes sense that he didn't go to Storms End. The war was pretty much wrapped up once the Lannisters joined.

2 - I think Ned always had reservations about Robert and Lyanna. He knew she was a free spirit and would not easily go into an arranged marriage. On top of that, he was not going to wait to get his sister so he had a good head start on anyone else that might want to get her.

3 - The KG were ordered to protect Lyanna with their life by the prince they loved. And that princes child was on the way. We do not know how much conversation happened before the fight. It was never over for them, they would have put Lyannas baby up as the new king/queen and probably one of them would have been regent.

4 - The KG serve for life, protecting the position of the king. I think of them like secret service agents. When a king is deposed they would usually stay on for the new king unless they chose not to recognize the successor (in which case they would almost certainly be killed).

5 - I doubt that this is the case.

 

Something unlikely but possible to consider:

it is possible that not everyone died. Howland Reed could have saved Ned from Arthur with words. If so, to protect Jon the other survivors could have agreed to "die" and live under false identities until a necessary time arose. Kind of like what JonCon did.

 

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

I just red a bunch of topics considering ToJ and specially how the hell Ned knew where to find Lyanna and who told him. I know that ToJ was posted like zillion times, but I have some question that I didn't find answer and hope that you are going to help me with it.

1. What happened to Robert during the RR? One of the reasons for RR was alleged kidnapping and raping of Lyanna by Rhaegar. If he was so madly in love, why didn't he was there with his hammer to knock down the ToJ brick by brick ? I assume, that is because Ned never told him about his plans to go after Lyanna with his northernmen, until it was actually over. We know that Ned and Robert was quarreling about Targaryen children and that book said they were at piece only when Lyanna died, because of their loss. So, Robert probably didn't know that Ned left after lifting the siege of Storms End to Dorne. 

2. Is it because there were no time for informing Robert, or Ned did his duty at Storms End and left, angry with his friend and now king Robert? 

3. If KG was at ToJ to protect the child, why the hell they fight with Ned who is that child uncle. Everyone in the world knew how much he loves his sister, and it's hard for me to think that KG were afraid for Lyanna and her child? Even if they feared that Ned is going to give the child to Robert, out of his duty and honor, they actually never tried to talk to him. The only answer I can come up with is that KG fought Ned and his men, not because protecting the child and mother, but because they were bound to king (Aerys/Rhaegar) and they were willing to fight to the bitter end, even if they knew that war is over, that most of Targaryens (at least those capable of rule) were dead. 

4. I was never sure how does the KG works? Is it like NW? In that case they had to obey their new king, regardless how he came to the throne. Or were they in bond with king personally, Aerys in this case? It's all very confusing  - we have Jamie, a kingslayer, a false brother on one hand, and Barristan who fought, lost and stayed in Robert's guard.

5. I saw on other topics, that some people think that Rhaegar himself provided Ned an info of Lyanna's whereabouts. In that case, if it's even possible, his KG would have to let him pass. 

What do u guys think of it?

It is quite possible, this was already addressed somewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it. I am also leaving the possibility that I missed something in the books, which were obvious to others.

1 and 2.  I seem to recall that Robert was injured at the Trident, which is why he sent Ned on ahead of him to KL and Storms End.  In that case, Ned would not have had a chance to tell Robert.  The whole "dragonspawn" thing probably didn't help either.

3.  They may not have had any idea how Ned would react.  There was probably a legitimate fear that he would harm Jon, or allow or be unable to prevent Robert doing so.  They may also have had orders to make Jon the Targaryen claimant, which Ned would never have gone along with.

4.  Until Robert came along, it would not have mattered, as succession passed from father to son, or otherwise normally.  It was only with a change of dynasty that things got sticky.  I expect that the guys at the TOJ, had they survived, might have bveen kept on, or might have been sent to the Wall.

5.  I think Ashara Dayne is the most likely ultimate source for Ned's knowledge of TOJ, although Varys has to be considered.  I think Rhaegar is unlikely as a source.

[Blueroses]

Regarding point 4, assuming RLJ, we know that Robert got the throne because he was the one with the best claim thanks to his targaryen grandmother once Aerys, Rhaegar and his children dead and Viserys and Daenerys exiled over sea and he still wanted to have them executed over the year because they would someday threaten his throne, so if any Targ loyalist was aware of Rhaegar having a (trueborn ?) son, he would support the claim of the child over the "usurper", and I think it was the case of the KG present. They most certainly considered the baby as the rightful heir to the throne and therefore thought that by vows, it was their duty to protect their new king.

For point 1, I read somewhere a while ago a fan theory claiming that, even if it was not stated anywhere, Howland Reed may have some "dreams" or greensight ability helping Ned finding Lyanna. I don't think its the case and I wouldn't like that very much, but who knows ?

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Showdown at the tower of joy was a fever dream that should not be interpreted as factual. 

Cmon the dream is ridicolous

[LindsayLohan]

OMG, folks.

Ned went to the TOJ because someone told him who was there.  He arrived shortly after Jon's birth.  Jon was the Targaryan heir, and Kingsguard are to protect the king or die trying.  That was why Boros was stripped of his cloak when he surrendered Tommen, and why Aerys stupidly charged into Hotah's men.  It was a numerical mismatch, the Kingsguard were all slain, Ned claimed Jon as his bastard.  The Kingsguard weren't going to step aside, and Ned didn't have any expectation that they would (see his statements to Jaime Lannister).  It was always going to be a scrap, and that's what happened.

The ridiculous over-talking is full nutbar sometimes. 

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

Let be honest the showdown was one of the best fight scenes in show. The Show believe the R + L = J so it would make sense for them to include one of the pivotal moments. I think the dream was based on events that did happen.

Robert at that point was intent on killing all things targaryen so it makes sense for them not wanting to give the baby to Ned.

The KG were really Rhaegars men and he ordered them to guard the baby. They simply carried out his orders.

[purple-eyes]

actually my question is that: who told ned that rhaegar named this tower as tower of joy? how did he know? 

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

I just red a bunch of topics considering ToJ and specially how the hell Ned knew where to find Lyanna and who told him. I know that ToJ was posted like zillion times, but I have some question that I didn't find answer and hope that you are going to help me with it.

1. What happened to Robert during the RR? One of the reasons for RR was alleged kidnapping and raping of Lyanna by Rhaegar. If he was so madly in love, why didn't he was there with his hammer to knock down the ToJ brick by brick ? I assume, that is because Ned never told him about his plans to go after Lyanna with his northernmen, until it was actually over. We know that Ned and Robert was quarreling about Targaryen children and that book said they were at piece only when Lyanna died, because of their loss. So, Robert probably didn't know that Ned left after lifting the siege of Storms End to Dorne. 

2. Is it because there were no time for informing Robert, or Ned did his duty at Storms End and left, angry with his friend and now king Robert? 

3. If KG was at ToJ to protect the child, why the hell they fight with Ned who is that child uncle. Everyone in the world knew how much he loves his sister, and it's hard for me to think that KG were afraid for Lyanna and her child? Even if they feared that Ned is going to give the child to Robert, out of his duty and honor, they actually never tried to talk to him. The only answer I can come up with is that KG fought Ned and his men, not because protecting the child and mother, but because they were bound to king (Aerys/Rhaegar) and they were willing to fight to the bitter end, even if they knew that war is over, that most of Targaryens (at least those capable of rule) were dead. 

4. I was never sure how does the KG works? Is it like NW? In that case they had to obey their new king, regardless how he came to the throne. Or were they in bond with king personally, Aerys in this case? It's all very confusing  - we have Jamie, a kingslayer, a false brother on one hand, and Barristan who fought, lost and stayed in Robert's guard.

5. I saw on other topics, that some people think that Rhaegar himself provided Ned an info of Lyanna's whereabouts. In that case, if it's even possible, his KG would have to let him pass. 

What do u guys think of it?

It is quite possible, this was already addressed somewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it. I am also leaving the possibility that I missed something in the books, which were obvious to others.

1: Bob was injured by rhaegar and could not travel well, hence Ned taking the vanguard and racing to king's landing. Ned took the army to Storm's end to break the siege, then he headed to the dornish marches where he found lyanna dying and the kingsguard protecting her. Bob probably didn't know as Ned and him were still fighting when he left to break the siege and to find his sister 

2:They were at odds over the sanctioned killing of Rhaegar's wife and kids. Ned did his duty to his new king by lifting the siege, then he set out with his northern companions to find his family 

3: Ned fought for the man that sanctioned the killing of the mother and sister of the rightful heir to the kingdom. They had no reason to think that Ned would let Jon live. They Swore a vow to protect Jon, and they did it as best they could 

4: This was the question. Since the king was still alive, taking orders from the prince possible, but unlikely, unless the three were in on the plan to remove Aerys and install Rhaegar via council. Jamie was only considered false after he broke his vow to save the city and the people left after the sack. Barristan fought for the king, and the new king was so impressed with his skill and honor that bob pardoned him and made him Lord commander of the new Kingsguard 

5: We don't know how ned found out. Maybe Jaime? 

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

I just red a bunch of topics considering ToJ and specially how the hell Ned knew where to find Lyanna and who told him. I know that ToJ was posted like zillion times, but I have some question that I didn't find answer and hope that you are going to help me with it.

1. What happened to Robert during the RR? One of the reasons for RR was alleged kidnapping and raping of Lyanna by Rhaegar. If he was so madly in love, why didn't he was there with his hammer to knock down the ToJ brick by brick ? I assume, that is because Ned never told him about his plans to go after Lyanna with his northernmen, until it was actually over. We know that Ned and Robert was quarreling about Targaryen children and that book said they were at piece only when Lyanna died, because of their loss. So, Robert probably didn't know that Ned left after lifting the siege of Storms End to Dorne. 

2. Is it because there were no time for informing Robert, or Ned did his duty at Storms End and left, angry with his friend and now king Robert? 

3. If KG was at ToJ to protect the child, why the hell they fight with Ned who is that child uncle. Everyone in the world knew how much he loves his sister, and it's hard for me to think that KG were afraid for Lyanna and her child? Even if they feared that Ned is going to give the child to Robert, out of his duty and honor, they actually never tried to talk to him. The only answer I can come up with is that KG fought Ned and his men, not because protecting the child and mother, but because they were bound to king (Aerys/Rhaegar) and they were willing to fight to the bitter end, even if they knew that war is over, that most of Targaryens (at least those capable of rule) were dead. 

4. I was never sure how does the KG works? Is it like NW? In that case they had to obey their new king, regardless how he came to the throne. Or were they in bond with king personally, Aerys in this case? It's all very confusing  - we have Jamie, a kingslayer, a false brother on one hand, and Barristan who fought, lost and stayed in Robert's guard.

5. I saw on other topics, that some people think that Rhaegar himself provided Ned an info of Lyanna's whereabouts. In that case, if it's even possible, his KG would have to let him pass. 

What do u guys think of it?

It is quite possible, this was already addressed somewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it. I am also leaving the possibility that I missed something in the books, which were obvious to others.

1) Robert had just won the crown, so he had to stay in KL and form a new government. He couldn't very well march off and leave Tywin Lannister to do it. Plus he was wounded pretty badly on the Trident.

2) Yes, they were quarreling. I never considered the possibility that before he died Rhaegar told Robert where to find Lyanna and Robert told Ned, but I suppose that's as likely an answer as any other. And it does play into my next point:

3) I've always thought it possible that both Rhaegar and Lyanna were kidnapped as part of some plot by the three KG; Hightower, Dayne and Whent. They force Rhaegar to return to battle or else they'll torture Lyanna and the baby, and mayhaps ultimately they were going to burn all R, L and J as the three heads for their new dragon. I'd be interested to know if there was an egg at the ToJ and whether Ned brought it back to Winterfell.