Why the ToJ showdown ever happened?

[Coolbeard the Exile]

5 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I agree with this.

I don't see how the theory that they are still alive and waiting to help Jon save the realm holds up really. Westeros is a hard place, even for a Lord's bastard. Dayne, Hightower and Whent would feel mighty stupid if Jon got kicked in the head by a horse and died when he was 9. "Hmm. Maybe we should've actually guarded the King eh?"

Ned letting Jon take the Black is also a problem. He was quite content to let Jon unknowingly swear away his birthright. I really can't see Ned being part of a plot against Robert either. Lying to him to protect his nephew is one thing. Lying to him when he knows people are planning to try and put Jon on the Throne is another thing entirely.

I suppose the main thing is simply that I don't see how it adds to the story. Jon's hard life is supposed to be a contrast to Aegon's (relatively) pampered upbringing. It doesn't really work if there was always a plot to put him on the Throne.

Well that's subjective isn't it? Personally I think the strongest meaning is that it's symbolic of Ned's admiration for them, which is obvious with the way he talks about them. Honour meant everything to Ned, and they were the very definition of the word. It's not surprising that he remembers them that way.

I can't really speak for hypothetical people who haven't read the books or seen the show but I certainly didn't read that section and assume that they were still alive.

No you dont see it if you just speed read past but when you break it down and look at it it strongly suggests that they are still alive.

[UnFit Finlay]

4 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

No you dont see it if you just speed read past but when you break it down and look at it it strongly suggests that they are still alive.

On the first read, maybe, but I've read AGOT seven times now and the idea that they are still alive never occurred to me.

Anyway, I just re-read the passage and I think you might be over-thinking, or mis-remembering it. All Ned actually says is that he remembers them vividly while he couldn't remember his companions.
 

Quote

 

"And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad mile on his lips. The hilt of the great-sword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard".

 

These were legendary Knights who were, and are, famed throughout the realm. It's not surprising that Ned would remember fighting them so clearly. I don't think it suggests that they are still alive in anyway. If anything I'd say he remembers them so vividly because he feels responsible for their deaths.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

28 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

On the first read, maybe, but I've read AGOT seven times now and the idea that they are still alive never occurred to me.

Anyway, I just re-read the passage and I think you might be over-thinking, or mis-remembering it. All Ned actually says is that he remembers them vividly while he couldn't remember his companions.
 

These were legendary Knights who were, and are, famed throughout the realm. It's not surprising that Ned would remember fighting them so clearly. I don't think it suggests that they are still alive in anyway. If anything I'd say he remembers them so vividly because he feels responsible for their deaths.

Ned is not that old no way he dosn't remember the faces of his companions no way i dont buy that.

Don't you think the whole scene is ridicolous?

[UnFit Finlay]

Just now, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Ned is not that old no way he dosn't remember the faces of his companions no way i dont buy that.

Don't you think the whole scene is ridicolous?

He doesn't though. I mean, we argue why that is and if it make sense but the text flat out says that he can't remember them. I really don't see how that means the ones he remembered are still alive.

Is it ridiculous? Personally, I don't think so. I assume GRRM wanted to get across how awed Ned was by those three and he did.

Of course, for all we know it wasn't a real dream. It could be similar to Jaime's "dream" about his Mother (the one where he only had one hand) or some of Bran's dreams. Perhaps something (Bloodraven?) wanted him to think about Jon's birth, and his birthright, just as Jon is preparing to give it up forever (which happened two chapters later). Pure speculation on my part, of course but it seems just as likely as three Kingsguard famed for their honour abandoning their King as part of some vague plan to put him on the Throne at some point in the future.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

1 minute ago, UnFit Finlay said:

He doesn't though. I mean, we argue why that is and if it make sense but the text flat out says that he can't remember them. I really don't see how that means the ones he remembered are still alive.

Is it ridiculous? Personally, I don't think so. I assume GRRM wanted to get across how awed Ned was by those three and he did.

Of course, for all we know it wasn't a real dream. It could be similar to Jaime's "dream" about his Mother (the one where he only had one hand) or some of Bran's dreams. Perhaps something (Bloodraven?) wanted him to think about Jon's birth, and his birthright, just as Jon is preparing to give it up forever (which happened two chapters later). Pure speculation on my part, of course but it seems just as likely as three Kingsguard famed for their honour abandoning their King as part of some vague plan to put him on the Throne at some point in the future.

His friends were shadows and the kingsguard were still shining bright i think implies that they are alive.

The story is ridicolous. The kingsguard were tasked with protecting Lyanna. They would best do that in a tower so why were they standing outside sharpening sword where they are most likely to be seen. 

They didn't even have a real talk before they fought. The most reasonable and honourable people gatherd at one place and they didnt talk about it they just charged eachother like mindless wights. It is not like Eddard was going to hurt Lyanna or her baby he is a good man and they are related ffs and the kingsguard know that. Eddard is 0 threat to the baby or Lyanna.

Eddard could have easily gone in to the tower by himself and talked with Lyanna i don't see the 3 honourable kingsguard that everyone praise not allowing him to do that. The whole scene is ridicolous.

George has said that it is a fever dream that should not be interpreted as factual.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

I think those explantions are quite weak. What would be the strongest symbolic meaning would be that they are alive. I bet 90% of people would interpret it that way if they were no got fans and hadn't read the books.

I've noticed you have a tendency to think explanations that don't line up with Order of the Green Hand theories are weak.  I'm still going through their Wars to Come videos, by the way. They could still be alive without that particular bit of language implying it.

I just tested that on someone who is not a fan, hasn't read the books, and hasn't seen the show. I used no character names and put it in terms of if she were reading a book where a character had a fever and was medicated and had a dream that has something to do with a memory, then added that three of the characters shared this shining aura, and others were gray. She said that she would think the shiny ones were important. Not a thing about who would be alive and who would be dead. Not a large sample, but this girl happens to be rather intelligent.

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I agree with this.

I don't see how the theory that they are still alive and waiting to help Jon save the realm holds up really. Westeros is a hard place, even for a Lord's bastard. Dayne, Hightower and Whent would feel mighty stupid if Jon got kicked in the head by a horse and died when he was 9. "Hmm. Maybe we should've actually guarded the King eh?"

Ned letting Jon take the Black is also a problem. He was quite content to let Jon unknowingly swear away his birthright. I really can't see Ned being part of a plot against Robert either. Lying to him to protect his nephew is one thing. Lying to him when he knows people are planning to try and put Jon on the Throne is another thing entirely.

I suppose the main thing is simply that I don't see how it adds to the story. Jon's hard life is supposed to be a contrast to Aegon's (relatively) pampered upbringing. It doesn't really work if there was always a plot to put him on the Throne.

Well that's subjective isn't it? Personally I think the strongest meaning is that it's symbolic of Ned's admiration for them, which is obvious with the way he talks about them. Honour meant everything to Ned, and they were the very definition of the word. It's not surprising that he remembers them that way.

I can't really speak for hypothetical people who haven't read the books or seen the show but I certainly didn't read that section and assume that they were still alive.

They wouldn't have to be plotting to put Jon on the throne though. Given that Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend, it would be far more likely that they believe Jon is TDtwP and are helping set things up for success in the upcoming Long Night 2.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

58 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Ned is not that old no way he dosn't remember the faces of his companions no way i dont buy that.

Don't you think the whole scene is ridicolous?

It's a dream and dreams are not supposed to make perfect sense. When was the last time you had a dream that made perfect sense? I can't remember if I've ever had one like that.

You don't think it's so ridiculous that it can't hold clues, or you wouldn't have mentioned thinking that the shiny brightness of the 3 KG could imply anything.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

25 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I've noticed you have a tendency to think explanations that don't line up with Order of the Green Hand theories are weak.  I'm still going through their Wars to Come videos, by the way. They could still be alive without that particular bit of language implying it.

I just tested that on someone who is not a fan, hasn't read the books, and hasn't seen the show. I used no character names and put it in terms of if she were reading a book where a character had a fever and was medicated and had a dream that has something to do with a memory, then added that three of the characters shared this shining aura, and others were gray. She said that she would think the shiny ones were important. Not a thing about who would be alive and who would be dead. Not a large sample, but this girl happens to be rather intelligent.

Me looking at your explanations and deeming them weak has nothing to do with the order of the green hand.

She would need some background information that they are presumed to be dead and that eddards companions were killed except Howland. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Me looking at your explanations and deeming them weak has nothing to do with the order of the green hand.

She would need some background information that they are presumed to be dead and that eddards companions were killed except Howland. 

Considering the only alternatives you've offered have been interpretations that go hand in hand with their theories, I'm sure you can see how it looks that way.

You said people who didn't read the books and aren't fans. People who didn't read the books and aren't fans would not know those things.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

24 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Me looking at your explanations and deeming them weak has nothing to do with the order of the green hand.

She would need some background information that they are presumed to be dead and that eddards companions were killed except Howland. 

 

18 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Considering the only alternatives you've offered have been interpretations that go hand in hand with their theories, I'm sure you can see how it looks that way.

You said people who didn't read the books and aren't fans. People who didn't read the books and aren't fans would not know those things.

You both make good points. I like to let my mind wander with the possibilities of that dream and what really went down there.
One thing did occur to me, is Howland clear or shrouded in his dream? I don't have the book on hand but that might clear up some of the symbolism debate here as we know for certain that Ned and Howland survived.
We may be straying from the OP...

[John Suburbs]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 11:04 PM, KingMance said:

I'm down for an egg being at the ToJ, but why the hell would Rhaegar or the KG be killing newborns, a stark girl, and the prince of westeros? That makes zero sense. I believe it's in TWOIAF (might be wrong), but didn't they place eggs in newborn targ cradles in hopes they would hatch? Summerhall was a disaster, and the only "dragon" hatched there was Rhaegar.

Because there is power in king's blood, and only death can pay for life.

There is probably a big difference between hatching a dragon egg while dragons are still alive, and hatching one to restart the magic that makes them possible.

At Summerhall, whatever they did went horribly wrong, while Dany hatched hers on a pyre using the magic of fire and blood.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

-Light bouncing off the white armor.
-The almost supernatural reputation those particular fighters had.
-Ned's feeling of inferiority in comparison to them.
-Ned's respect for their honor and devotion to duty.
-The fact that, having stayed out of the war, there is no blood on their hands of those three KG yet. As opposed to Ned and his buddies who have been fighting for months.

That's the thing about symbolism. It could go many different places. Until the author clarifies what from the dream is real and what is skewed by the dreaming and the milk of the poppy, we won't know.

Agreed, and I would find it extraordinary to the point of impossible that Arthur Dayne would give up Dawn so Ned could raise Jon in secret. It is the ancestral sword of his house and wielding it is a sacred trust.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

55 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Considering the only alternatives you've offered have been interpretations that go hand in hand with their theories, I'm sure you can see how it looks that way.

You said people who didn't read the books and aren't fans. People who didn't read the books and aren't fans would not know those things.

Did you figure out r+l=j yourself without clues and 40 milion people spamming it or did you subscribe to it after watching a video or reading about it? This dude who started this thread asked why the toj showdown ever happened and i explain my view on it.

I subscribe to many asoiaf youtube channels and watch their videos and the ones whose theories are the most likely in my eyes come from the order of the green hand.

I don't think any of your explanations are strong i think they are very very weak in comparison to perhaps the kingsguard being alive.

-Light bouncing off the white armor.
-The almost supernatural reputation those particular fighters had.
-Ned's feeling of inferiority in comparison to them.
-Ned's respect for their honor and devotion to duty.
-The fact that, having stayed out of the war, there is no blood on their hands of those three KG yet. As opposed to Ned and his buddies who have been fighting for months.

I thought it would be obvious that the people reading the scene would need to be given some context to answer the question.

[UnFit Finlay]

12 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

His friends were shadows and the kingsguard were still shining bright i think implies that they are alive.

The story is ridicolous. The kingsguard were tasked with protecting Lyanna. They would best do that in a tower so why were they standing outside sharpening sword where they are most likely to be seen. 

They didn't even have a real talk before they fought. The most reasonable and honourable people gatherd at one place and they didnt talk about it they just charged eachother like mindless wights. It is not like Eddard was going to hurt Lyanna or her baby he is a good man and they are related ffs and the kingsguard know that. Eddard is 0 threat to the baby or Lyanna.

Eddard could have easily gone in to the tower by himself and talked with Lyanna i don't see the 3 honourable kingsguard that everyone praise not allowing him to do that. The whole scene is ridicolous.

George has said that it is a fever dream that should not be interpreted as factual.

We've established that you think that they are alive. Repeating it and pointing out other "flaws" in the scene isn't an argument in it's favour though.

How do the Kingsguard know that Ned won't hurt Jon? We know he wasn't (and didn't) but he's still Robert's Man and Robert condoned the murder of children. They'd also know that trust is what led to the Sack of King's Landing. How could they trust anybody on Robert's side?

For me, I'd take the fact that they were outside as a sign that they'd accepted that the war was lost and they were going to die, and that they'd rather go out fighting than hiding in the Tower. It WAS a better strategy too: They very nearly won whereas if they'd hid in the Tower, the Rebels could've sent for reinforcements and starved them out.

12 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

They wouldn't have to be plotting to put Jon on the throne though. Given that Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend, it would be far more likely that they believe Jon is TDtwP and are helping set things up for success in the upcoming Long Night 2.

Surely that requires Jon getting there though? Considering we last saw him getting stabbed by his "Brothers", I think we can conclude that those Kingsguard are doing a pretty terrible job?

[Ygrain]

20 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

I think those explantions are quite weak. What would be the strongest symbolic meaning would be that they are alive.

You might have a point if Howland was also depicted as shining bright. He is not, hence the shining bright=alive and wraiths = dead doesn't apply.

Furthermore, Ned' memory goes "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed." That doesn't leave any possibility of the KG surviving the fight, and is consistent with another memory, of building eight cairns on the ridge.

 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You might have a point if Howland was also depicted as shining bright. He is not, hence the shining bright=alive and wraiths = dead doesn't apply.

Furthermore, Ned' memory goes "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed." That doesn't leave any possibility of the KG surviving the fight, and is consistent with another memory, of building eight cairns on the ridge.

 

Didn't think about that.

 

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

34 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Didn't think about that.

 

Not even when I brought it up yesterday?

There is a lot of symbolism from that dream, and I think anything is possible with who lived/died. Most likely, only Ned and HR lived. But the cairns don't prove that there are 8 bodies in them. Just that we are meant to think there are 8 bodies in them.

Back to #5 of OP; again, I'm surprised nobody considers that HR might be a green dreamer who knew where to find Lyanna.

 

 

Btw, ridiculous, not ridicolous

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

23 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Did you figure out r+l=j yourself without clues and 40 milion people spamming it or did you subscribe to it after watching a video or reading about it? This dude who started this thread asked why the toj showdown ever happened and i explain my view on it.

I subscribe to many asoiaf youtube channels and watch their videos and the ones whose theories are the most likely in my eyes come from the order of the green hand.

I don't think any of your explanations are strong i think they are very very weak in comparison to perhaps the kingsguard being alive.

-Light bouncing off the white armor.
-The almost supernatural reputation those particular fighters had.
-Ned's feeling of inferiority in comparison to them.
-Ned's respect for their honor and devotion to duty.
-The fact that, having stayed out of the war, there is no blood on their hands of those three KG yet. As opposed to Ned and his buddies who have been fighting for months.

I thought it would be obvious that the people reading the scene would need to be given some context to answer the question.

No it did not take me looking at videos or being spammed by 40 million people to connect R+L=J, which I allow is not the only option. 

Weak vs strong when it comes to symbolism is entirely subjective, and you gave no explanation of how they are weak. I think that particular phrase indicating that the KG are alive is a stretch, and certainly not what 90% of people would think. 

12 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

<snip

Surely that requires Jon getting there though? Considering we last saw him getting stabbed by his "Brothers", I think we can conclude that those Kingsguard are doing a pretty terrible job?

If none of those KG are present when Jon is stabbed, they can't very well do anything about it. They aren't Kingsguard anymore, so they can't just follow Jon around like puppies.

 

3 hours ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

<Snip.

Back to #5 of OP; again, I'm surprised nobody considers that HR might be a green dreamer who knew where to find Lyanna.

 

That is also a definite possibility.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

There is a lot of symbolism from that dream, and I think anything is possible with who lived/died. Most likely, only Ned and HR lived. But the cairns don't prove that there are 8 bodies in them. Just that we are meant to think there are 8 bodies in them.

When the number of cairns corresponds to the stated number of casualties...

4 hours ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Back to #5 of OP; again, I'm surprised nobody considers that HR might be a green dreamer who knew where to find Lyanna.

Isn't it stated somewhere that HR is not a greenseer?

Also, I don't think I've seen Ethan Glover listed in the thread as an option - you know, the guy who was last seen imprisoned in KL after Brandon's act, and next time we see him, he rides along with Ned and his friends. How did he get to escape KL to join the Rebels and make such close friends with Ned? And if he spent the duration of the Rebellion imprisoned as the wiki states (which may be just an educated guess), then why take him along? There is definitely some piece of information missing.

[UnFit Finlay]

21 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If none of those KG are present when Jon is stabbed, they can't very well do anything about it. They aren't Kingsguard anymore, so they can't just follow Jon around like puppies.

That's my point though. What's the point of them faking their deaths (and breaking their vows) as part of some elaborate plan to help Jon save the realm if Jon dies before the War for the Dawn really gets going? Surely, for this theory to have any weight, they'd have had *someone* watching over Jon and stopping him from doing any of the crazy stuff he's done, like swearing away his crown, going undercover with the Wildlings and getting sent on suicide missions, etc? The dead have risen and the Watch is both depleted and divided. Surely if there's a plan to help Jon they should be putting into practice sometime soon?

The vows is another problem. The theory basically suggests that Dayne, Whent and Hightower realised that Jon was MORE than just the King they were willing to die to protect. And that's what made them walk away from him. It just doesn't make sense to me. "Oh, he's destined to save the realm? He'll be fine then".

Ultimately, I think it's just Syrio Forel syndrome. Arthur Dayne, in particular, seems like such a cool character that people desperately wish he was still alive.