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Flea Bottom: A mirror image of the home of the CotF?


Seams

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Apparently Flea Bottom has never had its own thread in this forum.

Several important characters and some minor characters originate there: Davos, Gendry and Ser Duncan the Tall from the Dunk & Egg stories. Rorge and Biter apparently both come from there as well. In the Second Sons, Tyrion meets a sellsword named Kem whose accent he recognizes as coming from Flea Bottom. Kem misses an old friend he knew there. Anyone care to guess who that friend might be, and whether this childhood bond will come up again in the last two books?

I have puzzled over the wordplay of "Flea" and "Leaf," guessing that there might be a connection between, or a parallel purpose for, the Children of the Forest and Flea Bottom. Bran eats a bowl of weirwood paste provided by the Children of the Forest; Flea Bottom is famous for pot shops where a stew called brown is sold by the bowl. (There is also wordplay on bowl / bole that might strengthen the comparison between the land of the CotF and Flea Bottom.) The Children of the Forest call themselves singers, and Tyrion refers to bowls of brown as "Singer Stew," because of the fate he believes he dealt to the singer Symon Silver Tongue. But the leaf / flea connection, if there is one, could have a different meaning: Bran and/or the old gods communicate through rustling leaves; there are leaf-shaped spear heads and blades in the story from time to time.

The wordplay around "Bottom" and "tomb" and "Tobho Mott" have caused me to wonder whether Flea Bottom is a symbolic forge where people are "weaponized." That would fit with the story of Biter, certainly. Rorge is also from Flea Bottom and he might be seen as Biter's "smith," if Biter is a forged weapon. Gendry is from Flea Bottom but he learns his trade with Tobho Mott. Maybe he is both a weapon and a smith. In a little Flea Bottom family reunion, Dunk's descendant, Brienne, kills Rorge, and Gendry kills Biter.

@Curled Finger theorizes that one or two Valyrian steel swords were lost in the chaos at the storming of the Dragon Pit (before the events of ASOIAF). Flea Bottom is located on the hillside leading up to the Dragon Pit. If Flea Bottom is a sort of symbolic forge, might we find those missing swords hiding in the hands of some enterprising salvage operation in Flea Bottom? Valyrian steel is easily recognized, so the swords would have to be well hidden if they are in someone's hands at this point.

Anything else worth discussing about Flea Bottom? Davos seems to have no early memories of the place - his description of his childhood begins with service on the smuggling boat Cobblecat under Roro Uhoris.

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Leave it to you to find so many connections--well done, Seams.   I was reading the OP and thinking about how dirty Flea Bottom is then realized BR's cave is littered with remains and other things.  It's curious that the men we hear men speak of their home in Flea Bottom even alluding to the unknown meat in a bowl of brown, rivers of human waste running through their yards--yet they still seem fond of the place.  I envision it like Hollywood with Beverly Hills up on the hill.  That may be a bit over romanticized, but I can't imagine the Red Keep is as filthy as it's surrounding ghetto.   Of course, perhaps the Faith Militant has cleaned Flea Bottom up a bit, too.   

You've brought up the storming of the dragon pits at the end of the DOD and the loss of Lamentation at the very least.  It occurs to me that a similar scenario may yet occur in Kings Landing.  We know Cersei is an incompetent and vicious queen.  We know there is bitter "war" between Cersei and the Faith.  I don't think it's unlikely there could be an uprising of the smallfolk.  Particularly since Cersei is certain to ignore if not disdain the smallfolk.   She will have an uprising to the north and war to the south and southwest--all that military might can't just stay planted at the Red Keep.   I'm not sure who the people of Flea Bottom actually support, but if it comes down to lesser of the evils between Cersei and the High Sparrow...A great lot could happen once Aegon declares himself.   If there is a civil rebellion in Kings Landing it is entirely possible someone may breach the castle and take Widow's Wail.  I'm all for each and every Valyrian Sword that sees the light of day!  

If, as you illustrate, there are ties between Bloodraven's cave and Flea Bottom, is it safe to assume the overwhelming factor is corruption?  

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On 2/21/2017 at 9:32 PM, Curled Finger said:

Leave it to you to find so many connections--well done, Seams.   I was reading the OP and thinking about how dirty Flea Bottom is then realized BR's cave is littered with remains and other things.  It's curious that the men we hear men speak of their home in Flea Bottom even alluding to the unknown meat in a bowl of brown, rivers of human waste running through their yards--yet they still seem fond of the place.  I envision it like Hollywood with Beverly Hills up on the hill.  That may be a bit over romanticized, but I can't imagine the Red Keep is as filthy as it's surrounding ghetto.   Of course, perhaps the Faith Militant has cleaned Flea Bottom up a bit, too.   

You've brought up the storming of the dragon pits at the end of the DOD and the loss of Lamentation at the very least.  It occurs to me that a similar scenario may yet occur in Kings Landing.  We know Cersei is an incompetent and vicious queen.  We know there is bitter "war" between Cersei and the Faith.  I don't think it's unlikely there could be an uprising of the smallfolk.  Particularly since Cersei is certain to ignore if not disdain the smallfolk.   She will have an uprising to the north and war to the south and southwest--all that military might can't just stay planted at the Red Keep.   I'm not sure who the people of Flea Bottom actually support, but if it comes down to lesser of the evils between Cersei and the High Sparrow...A great lot could happen once Aegon declares himself.   If there is a civil rebellion in Kings Landing it is entirely possible someone may breach the castle and take Widow's Wail.  I'm all for each and every Valyrian Sword that sees the light of day!  

If, as you illustrate, there are ties between Bloodraven's cave and Flea Bottom, is it safe to assume the overwhelming factor is corruption?  

I just stumbled on your response two days after you wrote it and then the server crashed moments later. Sorry to leave this without a response for three days.

The putrid connection is fascinating! With a name like Flea Bottom, I would imagine you are right in making that connection. We better also consider Craster's Keep as a parallel. Dolorous Edd thinks the whole place is made of shit and Jon describes rivulets running down the hill, to the point of undermining the defensive wall.

I wonder whether key locations throughout Westeros will have a grouping of three hills similar to what King's Landing has. Aegon's High Hill is the location of the king and government; Visenya's Hill with the Great Sept for religious leadership; and Rhaenys' Hill with the Dragonpit and Flea Bottom for - warfare? magic? (Tobho Mott's shop, with its weirwood door, is on Visenya's Hill, though. That should be either warfare or magic-related, I would think.) A similar grouping of three at or beyond the Wall might be Castle Black or Mance's Cave (government?), The Fist of the First Men (religion?) and Craster's Keep (magic?) Jon wakes up at Craster's Keep and feels, "there is magic beyond the Wall after all." But maybe Bloodraven's cave is the religious location, and that would put the corruption (a nicer word) in the same location as the religion. So maybe this pattern doesn't fit.

The sewer network is a metaphor that GRRM has been setting up, including using the privy shaft in the Dunk & Egg stories, Tyrion's sewer and drain work at Casterly Rock and Brown Ben Plumm, Ser Jorah and Barristan using sewers for military invasions. So a community without an effective sewer system probably has a specific meaning. Going back to one of the old pun analyses, a sewer system probably has something to do with sewing fabric and holding together the fabric of society. So maybe the point is that Flea Bottom and Craster's Keep and Bloodraven / CotF cave are outside of the fabric of society - they lack sewer systems. On the other hand, Bloodraven / CotF are very connected - in a different way - through their root network.

But I keep coming back to the bowls. Davos eats a bowl of Sister's Stew and Jon almost eats a bowl of stinky stew (Dolorous Edd says it has a similar aroma to horseshit but the noted ingredients were root vegetables, iirc) before discovering the obsidian cache on the side of the Fist of the First Men. So there seems to be something with these bowls of brown that is linked to turning points in the hero's story line.

Well, there may not be much more to say about Flea Bottom. Thanks for your reply, but don't feel obligated to keep the thread on life support. I have a sword question that I will post on one of your sword threads.

 

 

 

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this is more of a Kingslanding thing but there is the very obvious not so obvious thing where the Sept of Baelor sits on the original site of the House of Kisses and now the Statue of Baelor is covered in bones from the holy 'Ned' bones. So it looks like a reference to the knight of skulls of kisses.

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10 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

this is more of a Kingslanding thing but there is the very obvious not so obvious thing where the Sept of Baelor sits on the original site of the House of Kisses and now the Statue of Baelor is covered in bones from the holy 'Ned' bones. So it looks like a reference to the knight of skulls of kisses.

That's cool! Since Lonmouth was tasked with unmasking the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and there is general suspicion that Lyanna Stark was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, do these hints somehow tell us something about Lyanna?

I am also still pondering the Baelor / Baelish / Bael the Bard connection - it has something to do with hiding a young woman, I think. Baelor wanted his sisters locked in a tower so he wouldn't be tempted by them; Bael the Bard locked himself and the Stark heiress in a crypt so she could bear his child. And we aren't sure yet what Baelish is doing with Sansa. So what's the connection between Baelor and the Knight of Skulls and Kisses and - possibly - a hidden woman?

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24 minutes ago, Seams said:

That's cool! Since Lonmouth was tasked with unmasking the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and there is general suspicion that Lyanna Stark was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, do these hints somehow tell us something about Lyanna?

I am also still pondering the Baelor / Baelish / Bael the Bard connection - it has something to do with hiding a young woman, I think. Baelor wanted his sisters locked in a tower so he wouldn't be tempted by them; Bael the Bard locked himself and the Stark heiress in a crypt so she could bear his child. And we aren't sure yet what Baelish is doing with Sansa. So what's the connection between Baelor and the Knight of Skulls and Kisses and - possibly - a hidden woman?

Well if we combine both Bael and Baelor (ignore the temptation bit and think of it in very general terms of protection) it is what happened to Lyanna, just the facts are a bit shuffle. 

Radio Westero theorized in their Jon episode that Rhaegar took Lyanna on the road that night to protect her from Aerys because Aerys did find out she was the knight of the laughing tree. She was locked away in the Tower of Joy as protection and ended up pregnant as a result and then died and placed in a crypt. 

In terms of Baelish, I think symbolism is the much more extreme and sinister verison of this.

On LmL's thread I found that the fandom is correct in thinking that Nissa Nissa as the sacrifice Fire moon was a woman that fit this concept of lucky copper penny. 

Littlefinger......(and I use that name because it is connected to the term dwarf's Penny was a tax imposed by Tyrion of one penny on whoring and the way Littlefinger made his fortune was through the brothels)......locked Sansa up in the Eyrie and turned her into a stone .......(I believe that mimics Lyanna's statue in the Winterfell crypt because the sky-via the association that the Dothraki believe the stars are Khals and their khalsar- is the realm of the dead and the gods as much as crypts and burial mounds. It would be akin to Catelyn representing Alyssa's statue in her unlife).........for her protection and to use her as a pawn queen (by the way that is another pun pawn/pond since with this concept of maidens is accompanied by dark ponds, lakes, wells, rivers, ocean). This is where the more sinister aspect of Baelish's association with Bael the bard and Baelor comes in. In wanting to use Sansa as a pawn, while he is invested in her care until she isn't useful anymore. (Baelish to me is a classical example of a serial killer. He goes on and on about Sansa's resemblance to Cat that it makes me think that young Cat is the focal point of his psycho-sexual development which was an extremely negative interaction culminating in his ultimate powerlessness. And that rage he has towards Cat combined with his high intelligence, led to the circumstances at present. I am not saying he planned everything out like Varys and Illaryio, but he at least engineered the Lannister/Stark war to punish Cat.) 

Anyway so Baelish is now taking her down to the Gates of the Moon which I accept Sweetsunray's theory that an avalanche will occur there and it would become a tomb. But I think the Mad Mouse will steal Sansa away like the dwarfs did with the dragon's eggs. 

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17 hours ago, Seams said:

I wonder whether key locations throughout Westeros will have a grouping of three hills similar to what King's Landing has. Aegon's High Hill is the location of the king and government; Visenya's Hill with the Great Sept for religious leadership; and Rhaenys' Hill with the Dragonpit and Flea Bottom for - warfare? magic? (Tobho Mott's shop, with its weirwood door, is on Visenya's Hill, though. That should be either warfare or magic-related, I would think.) A similar grouping of three at or beyond the Wall might be Castle Black or Mance's Cave (government?), The Fist of the First Men (religion?) and Craster's Keep (magic?) Jon wakes up at Craster's Keep and feels, "there is magic beyond the Wall after all." But maybe Bloodraven's cave is the religious location, and that would put the corruption (a nicer word) in the same location as the religion. So maybe this pattern doesn't fit.

Following that way, I wonder if whole Kingslanding can't be interpreted as a metaphore for beyond-the-Wall (and Winterfell), as it was done with Riverlands and Harrenhal for example.

Some ideas to explore :

- Beyond the Wall, we have seen some locations : Craster's keep, the Fist, the cave of the Greenseers. But also some empty villages, the haunted forrest, the frostfangs. Could it be some mirroring with KL's locations ?

- About the hidden woman :

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I am also still pondering the Baelor / Baelish / Bael the Bard connection - it has something to do with hiding a young woman, I think. Baelor wanted his sisters locked in a tower so he wouldn't be tempted by them; Bael the Bard locked himself and the Stark heiress in a crypt so she could bear his child. And we aren't sure yet what Baelish is doing with Sansa. So what's the connection between Baelor and the Knight of Skulls and Kisses and - possibly - a hidden woman?

Shall we re-read the riot chapter, where a maiden (Lollys) is raped (and finally has a little Tyrion), and another (Sansa) is saved by a Hound/the new wolf Lady ( but Lollys and Sansa could be here symbollicaly the same character - I have no answer, it's just a proposal for exploration ^^) ? 

One sister of Baelor conceived also secretly the bastard Daemon Blackfyre with Aegon

 

- The blattle of the Blackwater and the fires could also be seen as a foreshadowing ? I think to the Sansa's chapter, before she find the Hound in her bedroom, when she is showing to the battle : 

 
Quote

 

Her bedchamber was black as pitch. Sansa barred the door and fumbled through the dark to the window. When she ripped back the drapes, her breath caught in her throat.
The southern sky was aswirl with glowing, shifting colors, the reflections of the great fires that burned below. Baleful green tides moved against the bellies of the clouds, and pools of orange light spread out across the heavens. The reds and yellows of common flame warred against the emeralds and jades of wildfire, each color flaring and then fading, birthing armies of short-lived shadows to die again an instant later. Green dawns gave way to orange dusks in half a heartbeat. The air itself smelled burnt, the way a soup kettle sometimes smelled if it was left on the fire too long and all the soup boiled away. Embers drifted through the night air like swarms of fireflies.
Sansa backed away from the window, retreating toward the safety of her bed. I'll go to sleep, she told herself, and when I wake it will be a new day, and the sky will be blue again. The fighting will be done and someone will tell me whether I'm to live or die. "Lady," she whimpered softly, wondering if she would meet her wolf again when she was dead.

 

 
I wonder if the "southern sky" doesn't play the part of the Wall, mirroring all the fire lights. With Sansa, the air is a central element, so in her PoV, he could play same part than the Wall for Jon, for example. I just made the connection between sky and Wall (in Sansa's PoV, I insist ^^) writing this, I think I 'll look further.
- Varys can disappear and survive in fleabottom, and there is a strong symbollic connection between him/the spider and his little birds// the weirwood/raven/crow-net

- Arya hide in Fleabottom before she sees her father's death and is "captured" by Yoren. 

- And to finish, the links between Tyrion and Fleabottom in particulary and KL in general could perhaps give us an answer if he is the "3rd head of the dragon" (without speculating about "Tyrion Targaryen" or riding a dragon)
 
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On 2/24/2017 at 3:19 PM, Seams said:

I wonder whether key locations throughout Westeros will have a grouping of three hills similar to what King's Landing has. Aegon's High Hill is the location of the king and government; Visenya's Hill with the Great Sept for religious leadership; and Rhaenys' Hill with the Dragonpit and Flea Bottom for - warfare? magic? (Tobho Mott's shop, with its weirwood door, is on Visenya's Hill, though. That should be either warfare or magic-related, I would think.) A similar grouping of three at or beyond the Wall might be Castle Black or Mance's Cave (government?), The Fist of the First Men (religion?) and Craster's Keep (magic?) Jon wakes up at Craster's Keep and feels, "there is magic beyond the Wall after all." But maybe Bloodraven's cave is the religious location, and that would put the corruption (a nicer word) in the same location as the religion. So maybe this pattern doesn't fit.

I don't think we should separate them as such. The secular-religious-political realms in Westeros are much more intertwined than in our modern world. Visenya's Hill was originally crowned with a whore house; Maegor also rallied his troops against the Faith Militant there before the Sept of Baelor existed there. And at its base the Guild of Alchemists exists and hides caches of wildfire in the hill. And then the Street of Steel runs right through Visenya's Hill. 

Rhenys' Hill had the Sept of Remembrance before the Dragonpit. During the Sept of Remembrance's time on the Hill, it was used as a base for the Warrior's Sons, a military-religious organization. Now it has the ruined dragonpit and a cache of wildfire underneath. And Chataya's at the base of Rheny's Hill is run by Chataya who is a Summer Islander, where sex, a decidedly very secular activity, is a religious to her. And after all immigrants do bring with them their customs and beliefs, so I wouldn't be surprised that the women in that brothel perhaps view themselves much differently than other women in the same profession. As an example it is the difference between the view of bastards in Dorne versus the rest of Westeros. 

Aegon's High Hill may seem like the political base but it was more akin to a military base as it was fort first and then a castle. A fort is much more associated with the military than a castle. But a castle can be used as a military base as seen with Harrenhal and as a display of political power. 

 

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7 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Shall we re-read the riot chapter, where a maiden (Lollys) is raped (and finally has a little Tyrion), and another (Sansa) is saved by a Hound/the new wolf Lady ( but Lollys and Sansa could be here symbollicaly the same character - I have no answer, it's just a proposal for exploration ^^) ? 

One sister of Baelor conceived also secretly the bastard Daemon Blackfyre with Aegon

I wonder if the "southern sky" doesn't play the part of the Wall, mirroring all the fire lights. With Sansa, the air is a central element, so in her PoV, he could play same part than the Wall for Jon, for example. I just made the connection between sky and Wall (in Sansa's PoV, I insist ^^) writing this, I think I 'll look further.

- Varys can disappear and survive in fleabottom, and there is a strong symbollic connection between him/the spider and his little birds// the weirwood/raven/crow-net

- Arya hide in Fleabottom before she sees her father's death and is "captured" by Yoren. 

- And to finish, the links between Tyrion and Fleabottom in particulary and KL in general could perhaps give us an answer if he is the "3rd head of the dragon" (without speculating about "Tyrion Targaryen" or riding a dragon)

Good point, thinking about Flea Bottom as the site of the rape of Lollys. Aside from demonstrating the rage of the smallfolk toward the highborn, the gang rape may have been GRRM's way of creating a baby who has "half a hundred" fathers. One reason for the elder Tyrion being written as a little person is - I believe - that he is supposed to be closer to the small folk, and more sympathetic to some of them; at least he doesn't seem to have Cersei's contempt for them. So the baby Bronn has named Tyrion is a son of Flea Bottom but also a son of Bronn, joining numerous characters who have two fathers (Theon, Ned and Quentyn Martell all describe themselves as having a second father).

And @Pain Killer Jane made the point that the House of Kisses was part of the history of the Targaryens - a pretender was born there is a brothel. The mother later admitted that she had lied about a Targ being the father, but the mother was punished and the populist pretender was taken in and put in a close role to advise the king. So Lollys' baby may be the latest iteration of that populist character coming in among the nobles.

I wonder whether we are supposed to compare the attack on Lollys, the High Septon and Tyrek Lannister to the Storming of the Dragonpit, generations earlier?

Your point about Baelor's sister giving birth to Daemon Blackfyre is helping me to think about the three hills in a different way. Along with @Pain killer Jane's follow-up post. I think you are both right that I got on the wrong track looking for other trios of landscape features beyond the wall or looking for single-purpose "identities" for each hill. I think the three hills within King's Landing are supposed to represent the three founders of the Targaryen dynasty (duh) as well as the legacies that have echoed through the subsequent centuries. So maybe Visenya / Dark Sister is the spirit that also somehow rules Baelor and the Blackfyre line. Rhaenys didn't have a sword but she spent a lot of time with her dragon and she was beloved by the small folk. I wonder if there's something on her hill that would give us a better clue about her fate and about the relationship with Dorne? When the three hills are in balance, the sword Blackfyre is supposed to be at Aegon's High Hill, dragons are in the dragon pit and the sword Dark Sister is at - - - ? Visenya's Hill? That doesn't quite make sense.

But I feel more comfortable with the three hills as symbols of the three original Targaryens than as their own archetypes that would repeat across the landscape of Westeros. Maybe the three Lannister siblings are now symbolized by these hills - Tyrion has been to Flea Bottom, Jaime has stood vigil at Baelor's Sept (although Cersei has been in its dungeon) and Cersei sees herself as the Queen Regent at the Red Keep (although she has burned down the Tower of the Hand). There were briefly three Starks in King's Landing as well: Ned visited Tobho Mott's blacksmith shop, Sansa was stuck in the Red Keep and Arya escaped to Flea Bottom.

I will look forward to your Southern Sky = Wall analysis!

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