Greendreams/reddreams: spitballing towards a unified theory of magic

[hiemal]

I really want to explore an idea I was discussing with Lady Blizzardborn recently: the similarities between some "magical" aspects of the faith of the Old Gods and some "magical" aspects of the Valyrians and of R'hlorr and that the latter may be a kind of mutant child of the former.

Some of those who follow the Old Gods have the power to look beyond present time and space both unconsciously in greendreams and a very few can use the weirwoods themselves consciously to see when and where they will and even to exert some kind of influence over others. From what I understand of the system, the First Men "bought" into this cycle of souls through oaths and human sacrifice. Because the focus of this system seems to be the natural cycle of life it seems that some of those who participate also have soul bonds with other creatures that are part of this "domain"- beasts and birds, including the psychopompic ravens.

Some of those who follow R'hlorr (and the Targaryens and probably other dragonriders as well) have the power to look beyond present time and space in visions that I am now calling reddreams, such as Melisandre's visions and the Targaryen gift for prophecy. Unlike the Old Gods system, the followers of fire may have easier conscious access to this and to mental influence- a dragonglass candle and a palmful of blood would probably suffice rather than winning the genetic lottery. The focus of this system seems obviously to be fire and I speculate that obsidian stands in for the weirwood trees in some way and that the specialized nature of this bond also limits those whose ancestors who "bought in" with unknown ritual and unknown sacrifice (but the horn Dragonbinder is interesting...) seem to limit their soul bonds with the domain's sole beast and sole pyschopomp, the dragon.

 

SPITBALL:

I suggest that the system of R'hlorr and of fire is most likely a perversion of the soul cycle of the Children of the Forest and the weirwoods grafted by the Bloodstone Emperor using the power of the sacrifice of untold millions in the Long Night catastrophe onto the domain of fire in order to impress his consciousness on this matrix as a dominant force. As a God. As R'hlorr.

FURTHER SPITBALLING:

There are also bluedreams (blackdreams?) linked with Oily Black Stone and Krakens and that Patchface, the Undying of Qarth, and Euron may be involved. This system may be the result of a similar perverting of the CotF system by the Gray King and the Deep Ones during the Nagga event that sank islands and was probably the creation of the Drowned God. There may be a sunken grove weirwood's involved. Possibly Shade of the Evening. Not sure on that one. If I'm right, though, I'd look for a ring of obsidian pillars in Stygai.

And a ring of pillars of ice in the Land of Always of Winter. Or did say too much?

Anyone else want to chime in with other ideas about magic might possibly be connected. No script here.

[Seams]

A common root for the religions seems likely. Just as this forum has searched for the overlap between Azor Ahai and the Last Hero, it seems as if there must be some connection for these religions, although it may be distant. I keep thinking I'm seeing hints around Melisandre and Jon and Davos that will help to clarify the connection, but I can't quite put it together. These are the breadcrumbs I've been trying to follow:

I have this feeling that fire and ice are two of a larger number of elemental "states" - I'm not sure what to call them. Stone is one of the others, and sky or air, sea water, flowing (river) water, metal and wood are other candidates on my list. Possibly wind. But I think seeds and bones might also be magical members of the group. The ways of combining of these elements is what makes the world turn and history march on. So Tyrion spends time in a sky cell, for instance, which is a combination of ice and air. I think melted metal (like the gold crown for Viserys) could be either a combo of metal and fire or - because it flows - a combination of metal and water. Or maybe the swords that wash up on the Quiet Isle are metal and water combined. Marriage pacts also result in new combinations of elements: Tullys represent water and Starks represent stone (I believe). The Step Stones might also represent stone and water combined, but use sea water instead of river water. Some combinations bring about life and others bring about death.

Glass may be the most elusive and perfect of the combinations. I keep trying to understand why Littlefinger says he and Sansa can't make the windows for the glass house in their Winterfell model built out of snow. I think it goes beyond his failure to imagine where they might find sheet ice on the surface of a pond and instead goes to this symbolism around elements: Littlefinger can't touch or have glass, for some symbolic reason. (And the importance of glass makes me want to keep and eye on Ser Ilyn and Podric Payne, as in window panes.)

I'm circling back to a point in your post: Obsidian is a magical form of glass (dragonglass) that also bridges several material states. It is a stone, but is also fire (volcanic in origin). I think it also relates to fingers, specifically finger bones, and possibly corn kernels. Jon finds a bundle of obsidian in the earth at the Fist of the First Men. Fists are largely made with fingers. Davos had a pouch with finger bones in it. (Davos's finger bones "drowned" in sea water, giving us another one of those combinations.) Mormont has a sack of corn from which he hand-feeds his raven.

Melisandre says that finger bones can be used to make a glamor, hiding someone's true identity. A ruby (gem stone) can also be used in this way and rubies are associated with fire, eyes and the wordplay of ruby / bury. In the story, obsidian can be used as a "candle," bringing in the fire aspect.

Also on the fingers connection: trees can grasp and scratch at people, as we were given this imagery in the opening scene with Ser Waymar making his way through the woods. So fingers also work as a metaphor with the weirwoods.

Based on a quick look at the search sight, flames are not described as fingers usually, but as a source of pain for fingers. Flame and fingers don't coexist happily until we see Moqorro's so-called "fiery fingers" - named by Tyrion. We also see sparks from a fire rising to meet falling snow at one of Melisandre's rituals - fire and ice combining. So I guess this is a lot of speculation that somehow the Red Priests are going to bridge some of these gaps that have prevented certain elements from combining.

I'm still very much at the spitball stage, too, as you can tell. I can make some of the associations, but the purpose of the connection isn't entirely clear. But the R'Hllorists are part of the answer, I suspect, and obsidian / dragonglass is also at the center of it.

[GloubieBoulga]

I had a very pragmatic idea about the fire visions/greendreams/visions throw the weirwoods/throw the shade of the evening : basically, the blood/the sap is the key, the fluid thing who wears the "energy" (the living energy I mean, who permit to the soul/the spirit to have "consistence"), somethings totally neutral - I mean without culture/geography/aso. It's just like other natural elements.

So, the fire where the red priests (and other people) are fed with vegetals, and when vegetals burn, the sap evaporate and make the "memories" that it contains free : in this way, looking throw the flame is like showing memories throw a tree. 

The blood/the sap can receive many memories, for example with "blood magic", which can be seen like a manner to influence the blood (and the life) of a person. 

I see greendreams like a greenseer who "connect" his/her spirit to the blood of another person and can influence directly the spirit of that person throw the blood and the body. The connection is easier after a wound, or during a (quite)death, or in the contact of a weirwood because in a kind of way, with a huge wound/ill the body can't resist, and perhaps, the spirit begins to quit the body. 

Valyrians have connected their blood to the fire and the dragons, so they have "dragon spirit" who express sometimes, I suppose it isn't different from the "wolf blood" of the Stark. But there is a difference : the fire consumes and skinchanging with dragons is probably physically impossible. So the Valyrian didn't skinchange with their dragons but had them as partners. I suspect that in exchange, the dragons received a part of the spirit of the human who are linked to them by blood (for exemple, Rhaegal could have received a part of Rhaego, Viserion of Viserys, and Drogon of Drogo ^^)

I don't know if it helps 

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

A common root for the religions seems likely. Just as this forum has searched for the overlap between Azor Ahai and the Last Hero, it seems as if there must be some connection for these religions, although it may be distant. I keep thinking I'm seeing hints around Melisandre and Jon and Davos that will help to clarify the connection, but I can't quite put it together. These are the breadcrumbs I've been trying to follow:

I have this feeling that fire and ice are two of a larger number of elemental "states" - I'm not sure what to call them. Stone is one of the others, and sky or air, sea water, flowing (river) water, metal and wood are other candidates on my list. Possibly wind. But I think seeds and bones might also be magical members of the group. The ways of combining of these elements is what makes the world turn and history march on. So Tyrion spends time in a sky cell, for instance, which is a combination of ice and air. I think melted metal (like the gold crown for Viserys) could be either a combo of metal and fire or - because it flows - a combination of metal and water. Or maybe the swords that wash up on the Quiet Isle are metal and water combined. Marriage pacts also result in new combinations of elements: Tullys represent water and Starks represent stone (I believe). The Step Stones might also represent stone and water combined, but use sea water instead of river water. Some combinations bring about life and others bring about death.

Glass may be the most elusive and perfect of the combinations. I keep trying to understand why Littlefinger says he and Sansa can't make the windows for the glass house in their Winterfell model built out of snow. I think it goes beyond his failure to imagine where they might find sheet ice on the surface of a pond and instead goes to this symbolism around elements: Littlefinger can't touch or have glass, for some symbolic reason. (And the importance of glass makes me want to keep and eye on Ser Ilyn and Podric Payne, as in window panes.)

I'm circling back to a point in your post: Obsidian is a magical form of glass (dragonglass) that also bridges several material states. It is a stone, but is also fire (volcanic in origin). I think it also relates to fingers, specifically finger bones, and possibly corn kernels. Jon finds a bundle of obsidian in the earth at the Fist of the First Men. Fists are largely made with fingers. Davos had a pouch with finger bones in it. (Davos's finger bones "drowned" in sea water, giving us another one of those combinations.) Mormont has a sack of corn from which he hand-feeds his raven.

Melisandre says that finger bones can be used to make a glamor, hiding someone's true identity. A ruby (gem stone) can also be used in this way and rubies are associated with fire, eyes and the wordplay of ruby / bury. In the story, obsidian can be used as a "candle," bringing in the fire aspect.

Also on the fingers connection: trees can grasp and scratch at people, as we were given this imagery in the opening scene with Ser Waymar making his way through the woods. So fingers also work as a metaphor with the weirwoods.

Based on a quick look at the search sight, flames are not described as fingers usually, but as a source of pain for fingers. Flame and fingers don't coexist happily until we see Moqorro's so-called "fiery fingers" - named by Tyrion. We also see sparks from a fire rising to meet falling snow at one of Melisandre's rituals - fire and ice combining. So I guess this is a lot of speculation that somehow the Red Priests are going to bridge some of these gaps that have prevented certain elements from combining.

I'm still very much at the spitball stage, too, as you can tell. I can make some of the associations, but the purpose of the connection isn't entirely clear. But the R'Hllorists are part of the answer, I suspect, and obsidian / dragonglass is also at the center of it.

Thanks for responding, and in such depth! I agree on the elemental states although I think "forces" may ultimately be closer to the truth, I'm just not at all sure how many there are and how they stand in relation to each other. For example the Deep Ones seem to be associated with the lightless depths of the ocean- would they represent seawater or darkness? Or could they represent the weak nuclear force and the power of mutation it unleashes?

I hadn't considered glass, but its a fascinating possibility I'll be thinking about now. Particularly in relation to light.

And the fingers of fire and fingers of wood and leaf- now that's some evocative stuff! Is there a mind manipulating these fingers?

 

[hiemal]

3 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I had a very pragmatic idea about the fire visions/greendreams/visions throw the weirwoods/throw the shade of the evening : basically, the blood/the sap is the key, the fluid thing who wears the "energy" (the living energy I mean, who permit to the soul/the spirit to have "consistence"), somethings totally neutral - I mean without culture/geography/aso. It's just like other natural elements.

So, the fire where the red priests (and other people) are fed with vegetals, and when vegetals burn, the sap evaporate and make the "memories" that it contains free : in this way, looking throw the flame is like showing memories throw a tree. 

The blood/the sap can receive many memories, for example with "blood magic", which can be seen like a manner to influence

 

That's a very interesting line of thought! I wish we knew what Wilfire was made from, because I feel like that could play into this.

 

3 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I

Valyrians have connected their blood to the fire and the dragons, so they have "dragon spirit" who express sometimes, I suppose it isn't different from the "wolf blood" of the Stark. But there is a difference : the fire consumes and skinchanging with dragons is probably physically impossible. So the Valyrian didn't skinchange with their dragons but had them as partners. I suspect that in exchange, the dragons received a part of the spirit of the human who are linked to them by blood (for exemple, Rhaegal could have received a part of Rhaego, Viserion of Viserys, and Drogon of Drogo ^^)

I don't know if it helps 

I'm especially curious about the last- could blood magic bind Drogo to this system instead of the beliefs he was raised with (if the Nightlands and the Great Stallion have no objective reality does that mean he is liable to be snapped up in the first exchange of blood with a real power, for example?).

Anything helps! I'm just fumbling in the dark trying to build a Grand Unified Theory of Everything Westeros.

[cgrav]

I agree that weirwoods and obsidian both represent "fire of the gods". Weirwoods are described as looking as if they are on fire, and they exist only in the frozen north, so it's reasonable to think of them as frozen fire alongside obsidian. 

Where they differ is in connotation of the word "fire". It can mean both knowledge and passion. Weirwoods represent the knowledge aspect: a greenseer can look deep into the past and far in the present, but can't really do anything. On the other hand, The glass candle allows direct interaction with people, but doesn't offer its own memory. Knowing vs doing. Stoic vs impassioned. Etcetera. 

Even in personality, the difference shows up. The Starks are "cold" and have little understanding how other people think and feel and react. Ned clearly didn't understand how his words and actions would provoke his peers in Kings Landing, and even Jon had to be lectured early on about how his actions made his NW brothers feel.

Our fire icon Danaerys is quite different in that she makes a point of acting with compassion and really tries to placate the feelings of the people she rules. 

I think Mel is a halfway point: she understands people's feelings but uses them for manipulation. The fact that her magic is intensified by the cold Wall shows that she isn't all fire. Jon is another halfway character, as befits his lineage.

And then The Weirwood burning scene at the Wall brings the two forms together. 

Im still grasping at what concrete meaning this has for the story, but I'm definitely on board with the idea of a unified concept leading us to a single historical event that hopefully illuminates future events as well.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

@Seams Mel is fire, Jon is earth, Davos is water. I don't know that other elements really need to be considered separately. Air for instance is necessary for fire, oxygen in particular. And oxygen and hydrogen together make up water. Metal comes out of the earth. We're looking at a trinity here. It plays nicely with the dragon having three heads, the three attempts at making Lightbringer, and a host of other threes in the series.

As to fingers...remember where Petyr Baelish is from (the Fingers) and what his nickname is (Littlefinger). Given that he routinely plays a part based on what he wants people to think or believe of him, he is essentially doing non-magical glamours. 

Glass is a fusion of fire and earth. You can't make it without fire, and without elements found in the earth. Even the obisidian/dragonglass is a combination of these the heat/fire of the volcano and the elements within the earth.

I will say the windows for the snow castle is probably more a logistical issue. Sure they could find some ice, but how would they cut the panes with straight lines and support them in a snow frame? Still there could be symbolism in it. Interesting point about the Paynes. Ser Ilyn's colorless eyes always struck me as potentially important.

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I agree that weirwoods and obsidian both represent "fire of the gods". Weirwoods are described as looking as if they are on fire, and they exist only in the frozen north, so it's reasonable to think of them as frozen fire alongside obsidian. 

Where they differ is in connotation of the word "fire". It can mean both knowledge and passion. Weirwoods represent the knowledge aspect: a greenseer can look deep into the past and far in the present, but can't really do anything. On the other hand, The glass candle allows direct interaction with people, but doesn't offer its own memory. Knowing vs doing. Stoic vs impassioned. Etcetera. 

Even in personality, the difference shows up. The Starks are "cold" and have little understanding how other people think and feel and react. Ned clearly didn't understand how his words and actions would provoke his peers in Kings Landing, and even Jon had to be lectured early on about how his actions made his NW brothers feel.

Our fire icon Danaerys is quite different in that she makes a point of acting with compassion and really tries to placate the feelings of the people she rules. 

I think Mel is a halfway point: she understands people's feelings but uses them for manipulation. The fact that her magic is intensified by the cold Wall shows that she isn't all fire. Jon is another halfway character, as befits his lineage.

And then The Weirwood burning scene at the Wall brings the two forms together. 

Im still grasping at what concrete meaning this has for the story, but I'm definitely on board with the idea of a unified concept leading us to a single historical event that hopefully illuminates future events as well.

That depends on what exactly is increasing her powers and if it has that effect on all powers, from all three magics. The Wall is clearly made of ice/water, and we know that earth was used as well. What does everyone think of blood (Ygritte says the Wall was built with blood) being equivalent to fire? That would give the Wall ties to all three elemental powers. If that's the case, then perhaps all of the "hinges of the world" as Mel calls them have a similar base in all three forms of magic.

This may all go back to the Bloodstone Emperor messing around with things. Perhaps accidentally splitting magic into three forms. GRRM has said the wonky seasons had a magical cause that will be revealed. Maybe to permanently defeat the Others will require refusing the three forms of magic into tone, and that will rebalance the planet. Of course that could mean bye bye dragons.

[cgrav]

@Lady Blizzardborn I've thought for awhile about the Wall being more than inanimate, and that the Black Gate's salty water is actually the blood of Others. The end point of that reasoning is that the Wall is the Great Other. Either way, the Weirwood/Ice connection is made there, and the Grey King is tied in via visual description. 

Maybe GRRM was inspired by stories that the Great Wall in China contains a bunch of the people who died building it. 

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

31 minutes ago, cgrav said:

@Lady Blizzardborn I've thought for awhile about the Wall being more than inanimate, and that the Black Gate's salty water is actually the blood of Others. The end point of that reasoning is that the Wall is the Great Other. Either way, the Weirwood/Ice connection is made there, and the Grey King is tied in via visual description. 

Maybe GRRM was inspired by stories that the Great Wall in China contains a bunch of the people who died building it. 

I've always figured the salt part was because they used blocks of frozen sea water to build the Wall, at least at the foundation level. Use the giants to harvest and place the blocks, and the mammoths to haul them, and it's workable. The bulk of the work was done back when there were still giants and mammoths, and even CotF who could have helped.

Salt water as Other blood is an interesting concept. I've never really thought about the Others having blood. GRRM commented about Sam and Puddles that the obsidian dagger broke the spell holding Puddles together. Kind of makes it sound like an icy shadow or shell rather than something that has a body, but we don't know at this point what's up with the Others.

The initial inspiration for the Wall was Hadrian's Wall but I would not be at all surprised if he added in some things from the Great Wall of China. Definitely possible.

[cgrav]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I've always figured the salt part was because they used blocks of frozen sea water to build the Wall, at least at the foundation level. Use the giants to harvest and place the blocks, and the mammoths to haul them, and it's workable. The bulk of the work was done back when there were still giants and mammoths, and even CotF who could have helped.

Salt water as Other blood is an interesting concept. I've never really thought about the Others having blood. GRRM commented about Sam and Puddles that the obsidian dagger broke the spell holding Puddles together. Kind of makes it sound like an icy shadow or shell rather than something that has a body, but we don't know at this point what's up with the Others.

 

I guess they could also have just filled a stone or wood frame with water and maybe used the Others' cold to freeze it (or thrown them into it). I've wondered in other threads if the Black Gate's upper portions are inside the wall. 

The idea of the Wall being made of the same material and magic as the Others also begs an ominous question: what would an obsidian dagger do to the wall?

And what does obsidian do to a weirwood?

 

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

I agree that weirwoods and obsidian both represent "fire of the gods". Weirwoods are described as looking as if they are on fire, and they exist only in the frozen north, so it's reasonable to think of them as frozen fire alongside obsidian. 

Where they differ is in connotation of the word "fire". It can mean both knowledge and passion. Weirwoods represent the knowledge aspect: a greenseer can look deep into the past and far in the present, but can't really do anything. On the other hand, The glass candle allows direct interaction with people, but doesn't offer its own memory. Knowing vs doing. Stoic vs impassioned. Etcetera. 

 

That's well said, and may be the key to why their uses are so different. It also occurs to me that the "fire" of the weirwoords, their blood red leaves, mimic those of many trees in autumn. I wonder if there is a connection the seasons being off-kilter? Another tinfoil I've toyed with the idea is that the CotF are the ones who threw them off trying to provide more sunlight to power their weirnet, which could channel energy through the grove on the Isle of Faces like some kind of magical laser.

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

 

Even in personality, the difference shows up. The Starks are "cold" and have little understanding how other people think and feel and react. Ned clearly didn't understand how his words and actions would provoke his peers in Kings Landing, and even Jon had to be lectured early on about how his actions made his NW brothers feel.

Our fire icon Danaerys is quite different in that she makes a point of acting with compassion and really tries to placate the feelings of the people she rules. 

I think Mel is a halfway point: she understands people's feelings but uses them for manipulation. The fact that her magic is intensified by the cold Wall shows that she isn't all fire. Jon is another halfway character, as befits his lineage.

And then The Weirwood burning scene at the Wall brings the two forms together. 

Im still grasping at what concrete meaning this has for the story, but I'm definitely on board with the idea of a unified concept leading us to a single historical event that hopefully illuminates future events as well.

Briefly, anyways... hehe

And in Jon Snow, of course. Briefly, anyways... hehe

I agree with you that the dichotomies between the Starks and the Targaryens in terms of temperament, companions, and heritage in many ways define the Song of Ice and Fire.

[cgrav]

10 minutes ago, hiemal said:

That's well said, and may be the key to why their uses are so different. It also occurs to me that the "fire" of the weirwoords, their blood red leaves, mimic those of many trees in autumn. I wonder if there is a connection the seasons being off-kilter? Another tinfoil I've toyed with the idea is that the CotF are the ones who threw them off trying to provide more sunlight to power their weirnet, which could channel energy through the grove on the Isle of Faces like some kind of magical laser.

 

I think the leaf color is actually some clever misdirection so that the broader significance is less obvious. The setting and coloration make it really easy to say "oh it's just part of the fall theme" and never think twice about the specific words/symbols that link them to other magical concepts. As often as hands, flames, and blood are mentioned across the book, the vastly different settings in which they appear obscure the commonalities. Very tricksy.

And since it's suggested that the red sap really does get its color from blood, does that mean that the Black Gate's leaves are the color of the salty water? Does it have blue or white or clear leaves? Is the Wall made of it's leaves somehow? I'm just going all out as long as we have a spitball thread here.

And I do think the idea of the Starks and Targs being related in the pre-LN past is finally catching on, now that LmL and the History of Westeros (and others I'm sure) have done so much analysis on the Great Empire of the Dawn stuff. My take is that we will see Lightbringer re-forged when those long separated bloodlines are finally revealed to have been reunited in Jon. It's awfully conspicuous that a re-forging has yet to occur with any sword in the series so far. Thematically it's just so important that I have to imagine it happens alongside the climax of some character arcs, much like Aragorn and the Shards of Narsil.

[hiemal]

 

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

That depends on what exactly is increasing her powers and if it has that effect on all powers, from all three magics. The Wall is clearly made of ice/water, and we know that earth was used as well. What does everyone think of blood (Ygritte says the Wall was built with blood) being equivalent to fire? That would give the Wall ties to all three elemental powers. If that's the case, then perhaps all of the "hinges of the world" as Mel calls them have a similar base in all three forms of magic.

This may all go back to the Bloodstone Emperor messing around with things. Perhaps accidentally splitting magic into three forms. GRRM has said the wonky seasons had a magical cause that will be revealed. Maybe to permanently defeat the Others will require refusing the three forms of magic into tone, and that will rebalance the planet. Of course that could mean bye bye dragons.

I think blood is the universal solvent of  magic. I suspect that fire magic was instrumental in raising the Wall, however. My guess is that the Last Hero (Azor Ahai? maybe) found the CotF and with their help used Fire and Earth magic, and possibly others. Necromancy, perhaps? Could that have something to with why the dead can't pass.

And no- I have absolutely nothing on how necromancy fits in with in with other forms of magic. Unless it involves "warging" the dead. In which case I don't want to know...

And how many hinges are there? The Wall and Asshai? I also wonder at places like K'Dath and Yeen.

 

[hiemal]

11 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I think the leaf color is actually some clever misdirection so that the broader significance is less obvious. The setting and coloration make it really easy to say "oh it's just part of the fall theme" and never think twice about the specific words/symbols that link them to other magical concepts. As often as hands, flames, and blood are mentioned across the book, the vastly different settings in which they appear obscure the commonalities. Very tricksy.

And since it's suggested that the red sap really does get its color from blood, does that mean that the Black Gate's leaves are the color of the salty water? Does it have blue or white or clear leaves? Is the Wall made of it's leaves somehow? I'm just going all out as long as we have a spitball thread here.

Exactly!

The Black Gate is such an anomaly- it just doesn't seem to match up with anything we've seen before, at all. I'm open to any and ideas regarding it, although my current best guess is that it is one of the Last Heroes companions transformed by some unknown magic. He doesn't seem particularly happy about it.

[The Fattest Leech]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

Glass may be the most elusive and perfect of the combinations. I keep trying to understand why Littlefinger says he and Sansa can't make the windows for the glass house in their Winterfell model built out of snow. I think it goes beyond his failure to imagine where they might find sheet ice on the surface of a pond and instead goes to this symbolism around elements: Littlefinger can't touch or have glass, for some symbolic reason. (And the importance of glass makes me want to keep and eye on Ser Ilyn and Podric Payne, as in window panes.)

I'm circling back to a point in your post: Obsidian is a magical form of glass (dragonglass) that also bridges several material states. It is a stone, but is also fire (volcanic in origin). I think it also relates to fingers, specifically finger bones, and possibly corn kernels. Jon finds a bundle of obsidian in the earth at the Fist of the First Men. Fists are largely made with fingers. Davos had a pouch with finger bones in it. (Davos's finger bones "drowned" in sea water, giving us another one of those combinations.) Mormont has a sack of corn from which he hand-feeds his raven.

 

All good stuff in this thread. I don't have much to add at the moment, but I do want to touch on the glass topic you brought up. I think @Lady Blizzardborn hit the ruby nail on the head when she mentioned glass is a fusion of fire and earth. Glass is made by melting sand (in most low-tech cases)

One maybe somewhat unlikely place we also see glass is in Jon himself. Jon is the glass flower (yes, just like GRRM's other story, The Glass Flower). Roses in ASOIAF are said to grow more in the south, places with warmer climates like Highgarden or... Dorne. That is why the blue winter rose has to grow in the heated glass garden at Winterfell. To protect it, as Ned protects Jon at Winterfell, and Jon was born in Dorne so he is a Sand in a way.

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Glass is a fusion of fire and earth. You can't make it without fire, and without elements found in the earth. Even the obisidian/dragonglass is a combination of these the heat/fire of the volcano and the elements within the earth.

I will say the windows for the snow castle is probably more a logistical issue. Sure they could find some ice, but how would they cut the panes with straight lines and support them in a snow frame? Still there could be symbolism in it. Interesting point about the Paynes. Ser Ilyn's colorless eyes always struck me as potentially important.

 

[cgrav]

5 minutes ago, hiemal said:

 

I think blood is the universal solvent of  magic. I suspect that fire magic was instrumental in raising the Wall, however. My guess is that the Last Hero (Azor Ahai? maybe) found the CotF and with their help used Fire and Earth magic, and possibly others. Necromancy, perhaps? Could that have something to with why the dead can't pass.

And no- I have absolutely nothing on how necromancy fits in with in with other forms of magic. Unless it involves "warging" the dead. In which case I don't want to know...

And how many hinges are there? The Wall and Asshai? I also wonder at places like K'Dath and Yeen.

 

I think necromancy fits into the "grey" theme. Martin is breaking down the black/white distinction between life and death by presenting us with so many different means of people/things that aren't so easy to label as clearly dead or alive. The contrast is provided by Melissandre who always talks about light and dark, as well, duh, the House of Black and white. 

My personal theory on why the Others can't pass through the Wall is that the Wall itself is the Great Other, and it's deity realm is forbidden to its little minions, just as the realm of regular gods is forbidden to men. In fact, regular people don't get to access their gods' realm except by death, and likewise the "dead" Others perhaps can't access their god's realm unless they somehow become unambiguously alive. As has been discussed in the latest LmL thread, there is a pervasive Icarus theme across many characters and ancient myths, so I see nothing thematically that would exclude such a concept from applying to the Others. The gate/wall could let the pass, it just refuses to.

As far as hinges go, I might do a text search here soon, but I've only seen them brought up in relation to the Wall, Asshai, and in the memories of some of our more traumatized characters like Aeron (and I think there's a mention in Theon?). And they are oddly anthropomorphized as "screaming". Since the Wall is anthropomorphized in nearly every description of it, that makes sense, but I'm not sure how to make sense of the other mentions.  But since only rusty hinges make noise, it's clear something is turning on these "hinges" that has not moved in a long time, and it's most unpleasant to everyone who can hear it.

[hiemal]

24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

All good stuff in this thread. I don't have much to add at the moment, but I do want to touch on the glass topic you brought up. I think @Lady Blizzardborn hit the ruby nail on the head when she mentioned glass is a fusion of fire and earth. Glass is made by melting sand (in most low-tech cases)

One maybe somewhat unlikely place we also see glass is in Jon himself. Jon is the glass flower (yes, just like GRRM's other story, The Glass Flower). Roses in ASOIAF are said to grow more in the south, places with warmer climates like Highgarden or... Dorne. That is why the blue winter rose has to grow in the heated glass garden at Winterfell. To protect it, as Ned protects Jon at Winterfell, and Jon was born in Dorne so he is a Sand in a way.

 

Speaking of glass, I've been trying to go through the various images from the books and so far the only things that pop out are the stained glass windows of the better-off septs, Myrish lenses, and Selwyn of the mirror shield, but they are already pregnant with possibilities. Glass as something that can reveal, obscure, or transform truth through the power of light... Hmmm.

[hiemal]

5 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I think necromancy fits into the "grey" theme. Martin is breaking down the black/white distinction between life and death by presenting us with so many different means of people/things that aren't so easy to label as clearly dead or alive. The contrast is provided by Melissandre who always talks about light and dark, as well, duh, the House of Black and white. 

My personal theory on why the Others can't pass through the Wall is that the Wall itself is the Great Other, and it's deity realm is forbidden to its little minions, just as the realm of regular gods is forbidden to men. In fact, regular people don't get to access their gods' realm except by death, and likewise the "dead" Others perhaps can't access their god's realm unless they somehow become unambiguously alive. As has been discussed in the latest LmL thread, there is a pervasive Icarus theme across many characters and ancient myths, so I see nothing thematically that would exclude such a concept from applying to the Others. The gate/wall could let the pass, it just refuses to.

 

That's a new one to me. Kudos! If that is the case, who could have become the Great Other and why? It's a disturbing thought.

8 minutes ago, cgrav said:

As far as hinges go, I might do a text search here soon, but I've only seen them brought up in relation to the Wall, Asshai, and in the memories of some of our more traumatized characters like Aeron (and I think there's a mention in Theon?). And they are oddly anthropomorphized as "screaming". Since the Wall is anthropomorphized in nearly every description of it, that makes sense, but I'm not sure how to make sense of the other mentions.  But since only rusty hinges make noise, it's clear something is turning on these "hinges" that has not moved in a long time, and it's most unpleasant to everyone who can hear it.

Great insight! And even more telling when the Wall is so often described as "weeping" as well. Something is indeed wrong- I so wish we knew more about what was going on in Asshai. Is that hinge strained as well, or is it only this one?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I guess they could also have just filled a stone or wood frame with water and maybe used the Others' cold to freeze it (or thrown them into it). I've wondered in other threads if the Black Gate's upper portions are inside the wall. 

The idea of the Wall being made of the same material and magic as the Others also begs an ominous question: what would an obsidian dagger do to the wall?

And what does obsidian do to a weirwood?

 

I like the idea of throwing the Others into the water, but I don't think that would work very well.

I don't think the Wall is made of the same material and magic as the Others. I think it's made of ice because that's what they had in plenty at the time they started building.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Speaking of glass, I've been trying to go through the various images from the books and so far the only things that pop out are the stained glass windows of the better off septs, Myrish lenses, and Selwyn of the mirror shield, but they are already pregnant with possibilities. Glass as something that can reveal, obscure, or transform truth through the power of light... Hmmm.

Sounds like you need a lightbringer to help clear this up... sorry... couldn't resist