Greendreams/reddreams: spitballing towards a unified theory of magic

[hiemal]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sounds like you need a lightbringer to help clear this up... sorry... couldn't resist

/giggle The devil made you do it.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Speaking of glass, I've been trying to go through the various images from the books and so far the only things that pop out are the stained glass windows of the better off septs, Myrish lenses, and Selwyn of the mirror shield, but they are already pregnant with possibilities. Glass as something that can reveal, obscure, or transform truth through the power of light... Hmmm.

I will definitely agree that Myrish lenses in particular seem to distort what the viewer sees. Maybe not always in a nefarious way, but in a way that the viewer needs to interpret correctly (if that makes any sense?). Items from Myr tend to have a double exposure, or, obscure the truth like Myrish lenses, Myrish lace, Myrish carpets lying around, and Sweets over in Essos.

[Seams]

10 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Speaking of glass, I've been trying to go through the various images from the books and so far the only things that pop out are the stained glass windows of the better off septs, Myrish lenses, and Selwyn of the mirror shield, but they are already pregnant with possibilities. Glass as something that can reveal, obscure, or transform truth through the power of light... Hmmm.

Crystal might also be part of the glass family with obsidian and glass window panes and ice. I think Jon has a significant symbolic rebirth after sleeping in Craster's compound in ACoK, Jon III when Gilly comes to him very much in Lyanna mode, asking him to protect her baby son (who has not yet been born):

. . . He . . . stood up in a forest turned to crystal.

The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tent of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.

So there is magic beyond the Wall after all.

 

[cgrav]

Don't forget the glass gardens at Winterfell. Maybe a phrase meant to foreshadow the Others' cold descending on normally warm areas.

[Jango]

While I see the angle you're coming at this topic at, I still don't think the two are connected. Yes, both (all three) are able to foretell the future, however, there are major differences. Visions of the Red Priests and Priestesses require the participator to stare into fire, and when visions finally come to them, the visions themselves are never entirely clear. For example:

Spoiler

When Melisandre stares into the fire, ultimately foretelling Jon's untimely death, she doesn't see Jon being stabbed by the other members of the Night's Watch, or anything super specific. She simply sees Jon's face as it is surrounded by skulls.

Whereas the greendreams the Bran is having allow him to go forward and back in time. The visions of the Red Priests and Priestesses only allow them to look forward in time. There's bound to be different explanations for it all. For all we know, none of the named Gods in the series exist, or they all exist. That's the magic behind Martin and the world he's created.

[ravenous reader]

Fire is the central element of magic.

All else is secondary.

 

[hiemal]

13 minutes ago, Jango said:

While I see the angle you're coming at this topic at, I still don't think the two are connected. Yes, both (all three) are able to foretell the future, however, there are major differences. Visions of the Red Priests and Priestesses require the participator to stare into fire, and when visions finally come to them, the visions themselves are never entirely clear. For example:

  Reveal hidden contents

When Melisandre stares into the fire, ultimately foretelling Jon's untimely death, she doesn't see Jon being stabbed by the other members of the Night's Watch, or anything super specific. She simply sees Jon's face as it is surrounded by skulls.

Whereas the greendreams the Bran is having allow him to go forward and back in time. The visions of the Red Priests and Priestesses only allow them to look forward in time. There's bound to be different explanations for it all. For all we know, none of the named Gods in the series exist, or they all exist. That's the magic behind Martin and the world he's created.

The visions of the Red Preisthood are, I theorize, analogous to greendreams, not to weirwood visions. They are dreamlike because they are dreams, clouded and laden with symbols. There is a significant difference between them and the Targaryen gift of prophecy which manifests more or less exactly like greendreams and don't require a physical merdium that I can't explain beyond that it has something to do with blood. The Glass Candles are the fire analog of weirwood visions and we don't know the use of those yet.

[hiemal]

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Fire is the central element of magic.

All else is secondary.

 

Channeling your inner Heraclitus?

Explain!

[ravenous reader]

16 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Channeling your inner Heraclitus?

  I challenge you to show me one form of magic that doesn't require either literal or figurative fire...

[hiemal]

33 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

  I challenge you to show me one form of magic that doesn't require either literal or figurative fire...

I'm not taking that bet! Shall we call it RR's law?

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Crystal might also be part of the glass family with obsidian and glass window panes and ice. I think Jon has a significant symbolic rebirth after sleeping in Craster's compound in ACoK, Jon III when Gilly comes to him very much in Lyanna mode, asking him to protect her baby son (who has not yet been born):

. . . He . . . stood up in a forest turned to crystal.

The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tent of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.

So there is magic beyond the Wall after all.

 

And armor and the swords of the Others themselves!

I also like the crystal prisms the Faith uses.

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Don't forget the glass gardens at Winterfell. Maybe a phrase meant to foreshadow the Others' cold descending on normally warm areas.

That's a great one and mirrors the lifegiving hot springs from below.

[ravenous reader]

29 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I'm not taking that bet! Shall we call it RR's law?

What a faint heart!  You are resisting my Socratic methods..?  (wise man...the last poor soul I unleashed the Socratic method upon was Blue Tiger, who made the fatal error, which he came to regret, of innocently asking me 'what a nennymoan is, anyway...').

Besides, I surmise I don't need to prove the thesis of fire's centrality to you Hiemal.  You already know the way of it, instinctively.  Weren't you the one who sent me this poem a while ago (we won't talk about the even more inflammatory contribution, 'Love's Secret Domain' ...):

Quote

Spanish Dancer 

As in the hand a sulfur match flares white
and sends out flicking tongues on every side
before it bursts into flame –: in that ring
of crowded onlookers, hot, eager, and precise
her round dance begins to dart and spread.

 And all at once it is entirely flame.

 With a glance she sets her hair ablaze
and whirls suddenly with daring art
her slender dress into this fiery rapture,
from which, like snakes awakened,
two naked arms uncoil, aroused and rattling.

 And then: as if she felt the fire grow tight,
she gathers it all up and casts it off
disdainfully, and watches with imperious
command: it lies there raging on the ground
and still flares up and won’t surrender –.
But unwavering, assured, and with a sweet
welcoming smile she lifts her face
and stamps it out with rock-hard little feet.

Rainer Maria Rilke from New Poems (1907) Translation Edward Snow

 

Spanische Tänzerin

Wie in der Hand ein Schwefelzündholz, weiß,

eh es zur Flamme kommt, nach allen Seiten

zuckende Zungen streckt -: beginnt im Kreis

naher Beschauer hastig, hell und heiß

ihr runder Tanz sich zuckend auszubreiten.

 

Und plötzlich ist er Flamme, ganz und gar.

 

Mit einem Blick entzündet sie ihr Haar

und dreht auf einmal mit gewagter Kunst

ihr ganzes Kleid in diese Feuersbrunst,

aus welcher sich, wie Schlangen die erschrecken,

die nackten Arme wach und klappernd strecken.

 

Und dann: als würde ihr das Feuer knapp,

nimmt sie es ganz zusamm und wirft es ab

sehr herrisch, mit hochmütiger Gebärde

und schaut: da liegt es rasend auf der Erde

und flammt noch immer und ergiebt sich nicht -.

Doch sieghaft, sicher und mit einem süßen

grüßenden Lächeln hebt sie ihr Gesicht

und stampft es aus mit kleinen Füßen.

 

[hiemal]

5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What a faint heart!  You are resisting my Socratic methods..?  (wise man...the last poor soul I unleashed the Socratic method upon was Blue Tiger, who made the fatal error, which he came to regret, of innocently asking me 'what a nennymoan is, anyway...').

Besides, I surmise I don't need to prove the thesis of fire's centrality to you Hiemal.  You already know the way of it, instinctively.  Weren't you the one who sent me this poem a while ago (we won't talk about the even more inflammatory contribution, 'Love's Secret Domain' ...):

 

Well, quite!

 I think fire can be seen as both the acts of transformation and purification that are central to so much magic but symbolically linked via Prometheus' purloined gift with the power of the Gods over creation- magic!

To give my favorite band a fair shake here's something prettier:

" Rose, I hear your voice near to me
I've put away the poisoned chalice, for now
And lie down amongst the flowerbeds

Whichever stars we walk among
We both seek out the darkest red
The wine was turned to blood again
Without this blood we'd both be dead

I've wound myself tight into the hedgerows
Let's see which way the winter wind blows

You are my shadow "

[Seams]

8 hours ago, hiemal said:

And armor and the swords of the Others themselves!

I also like the crystal prisms the Faith uses.

Yes, the shattering of Ser Waymar's sword into shards may also have been (in part) a glass allusion. (Steel and needles are also specifically mentioned, and the sword shivers as well as shattering, so the author is giving us a few layers of meaning in that moment, I think.)

I wonder whether the destruction of the crystal crown of the High Septon during the riot in King's Landing is a parallel to the destruction of the glass house at Winterfell? The glass house is used to ensure that things can grow year-round in the frozen north, which is kind of a religious process if your religion is nature-based. Food is also produced in the glass house. When the high sparrow takes over the job of high septon, he sells the replacement crystal crown to buy food for the poor:

"We have no crown, Your Grace."

Her frown deepened. "My lord father gave your predecessor a crown of rare beauty, wrought in crystal and spun gold."

"And for that gift we honor him in our prayers," the High Septon said, "but the poor need food in their bellies more than we need gold and crystal on our head. That crown has been sold. . . . "

(AFfC, Cersei VI)

Which probably brings us back to the window symbolism because pane / pain. (The French word for bread.)

ETA: When I was looking at quotes about the crystal crown, a description of the Septon at Joffrey and Margaery's wedding ceremony mentioned, "Rainbow light flashed and shimmered every time the High Septon moved his head..." (ASoS, Tyrion VIII). I associate rainbows with Renly's rainbow guard, and have noted a number of hints that Renly is still present in symbolic ways near Margaery and/or Ser Loras. So I wonder whether Renly is a crystal who creates rainbows? If so, what does he represent in a larger scheme of dragonglass and other types of glass things?

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Yes, the shattering of Ser Waymar's sword into shards may also have been (in part) a glass allusion. (Steel and needles are also specifically mentioned, and the sword shivers as well as shattering, so the author is giving us a few layers of meaning in that moment, I think.)

I wonder whether the destruction of the crystal crown of the High Septon during the riot in King's Landing is a parallel to the destruction of the glass house at Winterfell? The glass house is used to ensure that things can grow year-round in the frozen north, which is kind of a religious process if your religion is nature-based. Food is also produced in the glass house. When the high sparrow takes over the job of high septon, he sells the replacement crystal crown to buy food for the poor:

"We have no crown, Your Grace."

Her frown deepened. "My lord father gave your predecessor a crown of rare beauty, wrought in crystal and spun gold."

"And for that gift we honor him in our prayers," the High Septon said, "but the poor need food in their bellies more than we need gold and crystal on our head. That crown has been sold. . . . "

(AFfC, Cersei VI)

Which probably brings us back to the window symbolism because pane / pain. (The French word for bread.)

ETA: When I was looking at quotes about the crystal crown, a description of the Septon at Joffrey and Margaery's wedding ceremony mentioned, "Rainbow light flashed and shimmered every time the High Septon moved his head..." (ASoS, Tyrion VIII). I associate rainbows with Renly's rainbow guard, and have noted a number of hints that Renly is still present in symbolic ways near Margaery and/or Ser Loras. So I wonder whether Renly is a crystal who creates rainbows? If so, what does he represent in a larger scheme of dragonglass and other types of glass things?

An interesting dichotomy- the Gardens function only when whole, but the crown serves the poor best when broken. The difference between a pane of glass and a prism, that breaks up the spectrum?

Also on glass and crystal, I really Dawn as fitting into this as well as the blades of the Others.  I wish I could remember who, but someone had a thread on Dawn being the original "legacy" sword Ice that the Starks later replaced with VS. That it was a trophy from a fallen star(k) during the Battle for the Dawn- at least that's what I walked away with.

Glass and crystal could also be linked with the leaves of the weirwoods, as transforming sunlight, and possibly with bees by their alchemy with sunlight and honey- and bring their own swords.