Post your most hated POV's

[Jadakiss]

After some reading today. Almost every chapter involving (f)aegon bores the hell out of me

[Jon Snow is a loser]

22 hours ago, khal drogon said:

I disagree. It seems you are just repeating the popular opinion without any proper explanation from your own observation. What are the reasons you could give for Essos being less organic? Where do you draw the line between even Braavos and other places? I don't even think there is much written about Braavos than Meereen. In fact Braavos is more of a backdrop than Meereen and it is surprising you find the former more "organic". Meereen's politics are explored and how the city works is explored and how the politics and economy of the region gets affected is explored. Compared to that Braavos is explored only as much as in which alley Arya kills who. In fact if you ignore xenophobic reasons like difficult to pronounce names Essosi cities resembles some real world slaving cities. 

Don't give lame reasons that Essosi characters are flat. Essosi politics does have more developed characters almost as much as Westerosi characters. Jorah, Drogo, Shavepate, Green Grace, Hizdahr, Moqorro, Griffs and Co, Illyrio, Brown Ben Plumm are examples of characters with depth. In fact they are much better characters than some supporting characters you see from Cersei or Brienne chapters. As much you can claim they have Westerosi equivalents you can't really equate them other than citing some superficial similarities. Even then character interactions work way differently. 

I could see why someone might be disinterested about that part of story. It could be reasons like not being connected to the greater part of the story or simply being non medieval European. But saying things like the not written well there are people who disagree and it needs more support.

I fully disagree. While Westeros feels very realistic as a medieval Europe equivalent, Essos is so fake & full of racist stereotypical caricatures. Rather than a proper equivalent of the East, Essos just feels like how people in the West viewed the East. Basically Essos is the perfect poster child for "how people in the Middle Age in Europe viewed the East" rather than an accurate portrayal of the East. 

This is a medieval fantasy genre & the real focus of the story is in the feudal Europe equivalent part of that world. Any portrayal of other cultures is bound to be inaccurate & based on stereotype because that is not where the heart of the story is. The less shown about them the better. 

 

[Bowen 747]

Sansa.  Sansa was an ordeal to read through. 

[Orphalesion]

25 minutes ago, Jon Snow is a loser said:

I fully disagree. While Westeros feels very realistic as a medical Europe equivalent, Essos is so fake & full of racist stereotypical caricatures. Rather than a proper equivalent of the East, Essos just feels like how people in the West viewed the East. Basically Essos is the perfect poster child for "how people in the Middle Age in Europe viewed the East" rather than an accurate portrayal of the East. 

This is a medieval fantasy genre & the real focus of the story is in the feudal Europe equivalent part of that world. Any portrayal of other culturea is bound to be inaccurate & based on stereotype because that is not where the heart of the story is. The less shown about them the better. 

 

I'd like to particularly point towards the plain unimaginative religions of Essos. The shepherds have the Sheep God, the horse-based nomads have the Horse God, the river people have the River Goddess, the people on the island with the poisonous butterflies have a god attended by Butterfly Women, the people of Qohor have a Lovecraft ripoff (what? No Tree God?), the people of Braavos have ALL THE GODS (!!!!!11!!one). All these very narrow, monotheistic/almost monotheistic faiths seem a bit...odd, bland and uninteresting. We never hear what who those "ods of Ghis" are (I wager that they are Harpies) and really the only religion in Essos that comes across as somewhat imaginative and believable is the Red God.

 

I can, to a certain extend imagine where GRRM is coming from here, I assume all these narrow monotheistic believes are supposed to hark back to the city gods of some very early societies in the Levant and Egypt, but IRL those coalesced into phanteons relatively quickly, while the narrow, oddly-specific gods of Essos all stand on their own.

[Good Guy Garlan]

20 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

After some reading today. Almost every chapter involving (f)aegon bores the hell out of me

This. I honestly want some of the hash George was smoking when he decided to give such a boring POV to a storyline that sorely needed some spark. I swear JonCon is like Stannis without the unintentional comedy. 

But the worst POV by far is Oreo. He's basically the First Person Shooter robot/camera from the bug game in Wreck It Ralph. 

[Mark Antony]

Samwell in Feast is the worst imo. Actually didnt mind the Faegon/Jon Con stuff its after Jorah kidnaps Tyrion that Tyrions chapters really turn to shit. 

[WSmith84]

On 24/02/2017 at 5:22 PM, khal drogon said:

I disagree. It seems you are just repeating the popular opinion without any proper explanation from your own observation. What are the reasons you could give for Essos being less organic? Where do you draw the line between even Braavos and other places? I don't even think there is much written about Braavos than Meereen. In fact Braavos is more of a backdrop than Meereen and it is surprising you find the former more "organic". Meereen's politics are explored and how the city works is explored and how the politics and economy of the region gets affected is explored. Compared to that Braavos is explored only as much as in which alley Arya kills who. In fact if you ignore xenophobic reasons like difficult to pronounce names Essosi cities resembles some real world slaving cities.

Meereenese politics? What? We know of politics in Meereen post-Dany, but before that? 'It was run by the Great Masters'... how, exactly? How did it function? Who made the laws, who decided things like defense, military etc.? Answer: we don't know. You know what I think of when I think of Meereen? Heat, slaves and pyramids. You know what I think of when I think of White Harbour (which gets 1 or 2 chapters, btw)? Salt, fish, beer almost as expensive as the fanciest wine, the Wolf Den, silver, the rock where seals bask in the sun... Now, that's just off the top of my head, but most places in Essos are just like this. I can think of just a few words to describe them, even the places we spent substantial time in.

On 24/02/2017 at 5:22 PM, khal drogon said:

I disagree. It seems you are just repeating the popular opinion without any proper explanation from your own observation.

It seems you just like Daenerys because she is a popular character, without any explanation of your own observations.

See how useless that is?

On 24/02/2017 at 5:22 PM, khal drogon said:

Don't give lame reasons that Essosi characters are flat. Essosi politics does have more developed characters almost as much as Westerosi characters. Jorah, Drogo, Shavepate, Green Grace, Hizdahr, Moqorro, Griffs and Co, Illyrio, Brown Ben Plumm are examples of characters with depth. In fact they are much better characters than some supporting characters you see from Cersei or Brienne chapters. As much you can claim they have Westerosi equivalents you can't really equate them other than citing some superficial similarities. Even then character interactions work way differently.

Most of the characters you just mentioned are Westerosi. I'm not saying there are no interesting characters in Essos, but they are far less common. Everyone bar the Shavepate and Green Grace ranges from fine to dull in Meereen. The villains are mostly ridiculous (the 'army' Tyrion sees, the Masters in general) and I don't care a whiff if most of them live or die. Drogo? He's no more depth than his surface. Oh, he lets his child-bride consent on their first night together, great. That doesn't really help when he proceeds to rape her on the following days (seriously, I can't see Dany muffling her cries of pain with a pillow as anything other than rape). George may have intended him to be a deeper character, but he failed.

[WSmith84]

I'd Sam and Brienne are dull to read. Any time I see that they have a chapter, I check the next chapter. If it's a Sam or Brienne too, I call it a day. I just can't take two of those in a row.

[300 H&H Magnum]

Jon and Sansa.  I hated their chapters.

[khal drogon]

On 2/26/2017 at 5:19 AM, WSmith84 said:

Meereenese politics? What? We know of politics in Meereen post-Dany, but before that? 'It was run by the Great Masters'... how, exactly? How did it function? Who made the laws, who decided things like defense, military etc.? Answer: we don't know. You know what I think of when I think of Meereen? Heat, slaves and pyramids. You know what I think of when I think of White Harbour (which gets 1 or 2 chapters, btw)? Salt, fish, beer almost as expensive as the fanciest wine, the Wolf Den, silver, the rock where seals bask in the sun... Now, that's just off the top of my head, but most places in Essos are just like this. I can think of just a few words to describe them, even the places we spent substantial time in.

Who cares what you think of Meereen? Again lame reasons. It just shows your disinterest and you are using hyperboles to prove it is flat. While I think of Meereen I think of the oppressed classes, different mindsets of slavers, varying interests of nearby regions, economic impact of Slaver's bay in the world, religious uprisings. These things interests me. While I think of White Harbor I think of Manderly and a cold city in the North. See I could do that too. In fact I like Essos because it gives a contrast to the bickering lords of Westeros. From Essos chapters I could feel his whole world coming alive a feeling which I don't get from isolated Westeros. Essos contrasts Westeros and I like them both because they aren't equal.

On 2/26/2017 at 5:19 AM, WSmith84 said:

It seems you just like Daenerys because she is a popular character, without any explanation of your own observations.

See how useless that is?

Baseless argument again. I started liking Daenerys only after Astapor because of her anti slavery campaign which is not possible without Essos and if I have thought Essos is pointless I wouldn't have even liked her. I like Barristan, Tyrion and even Quentyn chapters too so your accusation has no basis.

On 2/26/2017 at 5:19 AM, WSmith84 said:

Most of the characters you just mentioned are Westerosi. I'm not saying there are no interesting characters in Essos, but they are far less common. Everyone bar the Shavepate and Green Grace ranges from fine to dull in Meereen. The villains are mostly ridiculous (the 'army' Tyrion sees, the Masters in general) and I don't care a whiff if most of them live or die. Drogo? He's no more depth than his surface. Oh, he lets his child-bride consent on their first night together, great. That doesn't really help when he proceeds to rape her on the following days (seriously, I can't see Dany muffling her cries of pain with a pillow as anything other than rape). George may have intended him to be a deeper character, but he failed.

We are talking about characters featuring in those chapters and not their races so they are relevant to the argument. Much of the story revolves around those characters not those ridiculous characters you mention. Even those villains you mention are not the focus of the story. The focus of the story is Dany dealing with a city and Tyrion's experience with Slavery and Barristan's conflicting morals with the city. I included Drogo because the dynamic between him and Dany led to one of the best character arc in the story though he may not have as much as depth but he has more depth than Ramsay Snow for sure. 

Anyway liking any character or chapter is one's own opinion. You don't like Character X then don't try to preach that their story-line is inferior. 

On 2/25/2017 at 11:54 PM, Jon Snow is a loser said:

I fully disagree. While Westeros feels very realistic as a medieval Europe equivalent, Essos is so fake & full of racist stereotypical caricatures. Rather than a proper equivalent of the East,Essos just feels like how people in the West viewed the East. Basically Essos is the perfect poster child for "how people in the Middle Age in Europe viewed the East" rather than an accurate portrayal of the East. 

This is a medieval fantasy genre & the real focus of the story is in the feudal Europe equivalent part of that world. Any portrayal of other cultures is bound to be inaccurate & based on stereotype because that is not where the heart of the story is. The less shown about them the better. 

 

Why do we need real world equivalents though? If I want an equivalent of Ottoman Empire in the story why I have to read the story when I could read history. The Essos feels like how people in the West viewed east because it is supposed to be that way. The Story is told from Westerosi characters viewing a foreign land. Some of these are caricatures because of they are fables and stories and not true like the winged men of the East. Even Daenerys is caricatured as a sorceress who baths in blood of virgins in Westeros.

There are no written rule that fantasies should focus on feudal Europe. Fantasies are about fictional locations and it could be based on any place. There are no equivalents of ice zombies and dragons too in real word. 

[khal drogon]

On 2/26/2017 at 0:34 AM, Orphalesion said:

I'd like to particularly point towards the plain unimaginative religions of Essos. The shepherds have the Sheep God, the horse-based nomads have the Horse God, the river people have the River Goddess, the people on the island with the poisonous butterflies have a god attended by Butterfly Women, the people of Qohor have a Lovecraft ripoff (what? No Tree God?), the people of Braavos have ALL THE GODS (!!!!!11!!one). All these very narrow, monotheistic/almost monotheistic faiths seem a bit...odd, bland and uninteresting. We never hear what who those "ods of Ghis" are (I wager that they are Harpies) and really the only religion in Essos that comes across as somewhat imaginative and believable is the Red God.

 

I can, to a certain extend imagine where GRRM is coming from here, I assume all these narrow monotheistic believes are supposed to hark back to the city gods of some very early societies in the Levant and Egypt, but IRL those coalesced into phanteons relatively quickly, while the narrow, oddly-specific gods of Essos all stand on their own.

The only two religions that seem organised and resembles true religions are the Faith and R'hllorism. With little information we could even say the North worships trees and Seafaring Ironborn worship Sea god. It looks lame if you simplify it. Just because some information is not given in detail doesn't mean they are lame. I would like to hear the lore behind every religion but they aren't going to become relevant to the story. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

2 hours ago, khal drogon said:

The Essos feels like how people in the West viewed east because it is supposed to be that way. The Story is told from Westerosi characters viewing a foreign land. Some of these are caricatures because of they are fables and stories and not true like the winged men of the East. 

That's an awfully convenient excuse.

[Orphalesion]

2 hours ago, khal drogon said:

The only two religions that seem organised and resembles true religions are the Faith and R'hllorism. With little information we could even say the North worships trees and Seafaring Ironborn worship Sea god. It looks lame if you simplify it. Just because some information is not given in detail doesn't mean they are lame. I would like to hear the lore behind every religion but they aren't going to become relevant to the story. 

Actually The Old Goods are a pretty good representation of Pantheism and Shamanistic believes. And if you compare the Drowned God to the believes of the Sistermen and the myth of Storm's End's creation it becomes pretty evident that the sea god and storm/wind god seem to be a remnant of the original First Men believes.

Even so the Drowned God isn't something ridiculously specific like "the God of Raiding". If the iron Born were like the Dothraki or the Lhazareen he'd be the "Ship God" or the "Great Ship Captain in the Sky"

It's this extremely obvious connection between the various cultures in Essos and their (often sole) deity that bugs me.

Also yeah they aren't gonna be relevant to the story, that's what world book would have been for.

[Jon Snow is a loser]

9 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Why do we need real world equivalents though? If I want an equivalent of Ottoman Empire in the story why I have to read the story when I could read history. The Essos feels like how people in the West viewed east because it is supposed to be that way. The Story is told from Westerosi characters viewing a foreign land. Some of these are caricatures because of they are fables and stories and not true like the winged men of the East. Even Daenerys is caricatured as a sorceress who baths in blood of virgins in Westeros.

There are no written rule that fantasies should focus on feudal Europe. Fantasies are about fictional locations and it could be based on any place. There are no equivalents of ice zombies and dragons too in real word. 

 

You are making stuff up. Essos is what it is. Saying it's look that way because it is viewed from the point of view of Westerosi  characters is bullshit. Are you saying that the fact the monkey tail hat of Yi Tian is not a fact and made up stuff by Westerosis?Are you saying that Dothraki refuse to wear armor in battle and enjoy sex in open air and kill each other in wedding are not facts but a "Westerosi point of view"?  

[Jango]

Throughout the entire series so far, Arya has always been the chapter I dread most to come to. For some reason, I've never really been able to sympathize with her or really care for whatever situation she found herself getting into. Bran and Catelyn always teetered with me. There were some chapters, to me at least, that were pure gold, and others that seemed to continue to drag on and seemingly never end. 

[JoeMama]

I'm a myopic homer. ALL THE POVs ARE FANTASTIC. I look forward to them all even if some characters do have large swathes of the books where their storyline becomes cumbersome.

Ex: Brienne aimlessly wandering the Riverlands, Tryion slowly trudging across Essos, and the newest Sansa chapter on GRRM's LJ where nothing of consequence happens, etc etc.

Although I do disagree with a lot of those who say Victarion's POV is the worst. If he were a modern guy, he'd be a backwards hat wearing, barb wire tattooed, energy drink chugging, UFC loving bro. He's so lame but he's under the misguided notion he's this awesome, brilliant guy, even though he's a total lug. I find his character really funny in an unintentional way. Self delusion makes for an interesting read, IMO. And Victarion might as well be president and dictator for life of deluded fruitcakes anonymous.

[khal drogon]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 0:01 AM, Good Guy Garlan said:

Thats an awfuly conenient eexcu

Blame GRRM here because it isn't an excuse. He specifically wrote it that way as we could see obvious differences between the depiction of Slavers in ASOS and ADWD. Slaver's bay became a more real place in ADWD with different POVs and with Dany looking at its problems than in ASOS where she was looking to conquer unnamed slavers. In ASOS they were the nameless caricatured villains but in ADWD they are not. And that's entirely because of the POVs we had. Everywhere people here tales and in tales there are often caricatures like how the Dothraki caricature Westerosi as men riding wooden horses.

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 0:28 AM, Orphalesion said:

Actually The Old Goods are a pretty good representation of Pantheism and Shamanistic believes. And if you compare the Drowned God to the believes of the Sistermen and the myth of Storm's End's creation it becomes pretty evident that the sea god and storm/wind god seem to be a remnant of the original First Men believes.

Even so the Drowned God isn't something ridiculously specific like "the God of Raiding". If the iron Born were like the Dothraki or the Lhazareen he'd be the "Ship God" or the "Great Ship Captain in the Sky"

It's this extremely obvious connection between the various cultures in Essos and their (often sole) deity that bugs me.

Also yeah they aren't gonna be relevant to the story, that's what world book would have been for.

And we know that Old gods or the drowned god religions are not simplistic because we know the background of their story. You know about those gods from multiple POVs from two families and of course from the history and lore. And you know about Lhazareen from a minor character where there is no focus of religion. 

God of raiding isn't even ridiculous. It is like the god of war from real cultures. Dothraki religion gives an impression that there is more to their mythology as evident from their reverance of the Mother of Mountains and the womb of the world. Their Dosh khaleen is an example of it being a Shamanistic religion. Their Stallion is the PTWP archetype found in other major religions. I definitely think we will explore more about their religion because it is going to become relevant.

 

[khal drogon]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 6:53 AM, Jon Snow is a loser said:

 

You are making stuff up. Essos is what it is. Saying it's look that way because it is viewed from the point of view of Westerosi  characters is bullshit. Are you saying that the fact the monkey tail hat of Yi Tian is not a fact and made up stuff by Westerosis?Are you saying that Dothraki refuse to wear armor in battle and enjoy sex in open air and kill each other in wedding are not facts but a "Westerosi point of view"?  

Good attempt at trolling here. But come up with real arguments otherwise arguing will become pointless.

[black_hart]

How do people who dislike all of Bran, Jon AND Dany like the books at all?

For what it is worth I would read a book about the life of a porter in Braavos or a book about Sansa planning her next dinner party. I do find Slaver's Bay something of a caricature (but so are the unsustainably long winters in Westeros, that should impose vastly different social organisation, the anachronistic sentimental vikings), but I am certain the people complaining about it would not be partial to fleshing it out in more detail.

[Dofs]

ACoK Theon are some nasty chapters, quite uncomfortable to read.

Same for Cersei's chapters who provide some black humour but also some really uncomfortable stuff. Her middle Feast chapters are also quite repetitive and boring with their long council scenes that are frankly interchangeable between each other.

Bran's chapter are dull though one of the reasons is that Bran himself is dull. In aSoS a Bran chapter was always a time when I would take a break from a book.

Dany's DwD chapters. And I think Dany was the problem here, not Slaver's Bay, since I thoroughly enjoyed the place and its politics the moment Dany was gone from there and POVs about them were given to other characters.

Arys' sole chapter just before he would die is so unnecessary, it's existence offends me. It's a prologue chapter in the middle of the book which was not needed since Arys spent the entire chapter with another POV chapter from whom the narrative could have been told.