Jump to content

Did Roose betray Robb from the get go?


Nocturne

Recommended Posts

This has probably been discussed at some point, but general consensus that i see is that Roose only betrayed Robb after he started making imbecile decisions like: beheading Karstark and not marrying the Frey girl.

So for this theory to work, we are going to make one assumption: that Roose is a capable commander. There's no real hard evidence that he is up there with the best of the best, but there isn't evidence that he is a bad commander either.

First battle of the war that involves the Northern houses is the Battle on the Greek Fork. Here a capable commander would not have rushed with his small batch of men the vastly superior in numbers Lannister army. A capable commander would have taken advantage of the terrain, by going upriver and holding the higher ground. The Lannister could have still won if they attacked Roose in this position, but would have lost an immense deal of their own men.

Knowing Tywin is a smart and cautious man, he would not have taken the bait, and would instead go for Harrenhall. But this would extend his army, possibly outspent their supplies, and the most important thing? Get trapped between two Northern armies, because Robb could have followed up shortly.

Instead Roose, choose to reveal his position to Tywin, attack the larger army and loose a lot of Stark loyalist in the process. So my bottom line is, that Roose was planning to betray Robb from the get go, the Bolton - Frey - Lannister alliance that happened later on, was just luck on his side to further aid his plan.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roose kept his options open from the start. He likely saw the War as an opportunity to advance his fortunes, whichever way it went. Remember that he was faced with a superior foe - having only about 600 cavalry vs Tywin's 7500. So his only hope was to throw the dice and hope to catch them unawares. If it succeeded, he would be the hero. And he would likely have gained a lot of rewards from Robb's victories as a result. However, if he failed, he made sure that very few of the losses were his own Bolton troops, while the other Northern lords would be significantly weakened.

At the same time, he left behind a very strong force at the Dreadfort, to capitalize on the weakness of his rivals in the North while the Starks were away. Then, after Theon took Winterfell, he took the final decision to abandon Robb's cause.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I sort of agree with Free Northman. He didn't plan on betraying Robb from the start, but he definitely threw the battle of the Green Fork and was keeping his options open, while at the same time advancing his own agenda's.

For one, the Stark archers aren't used until the two armies are locked together, meaning Roose was likely killing as many of his own men as he was enemies (think show Ramsay at the Battle of the Bastards). The night march was clever, but he wasted it by blowing horns and standing on a hill rather and allowing the Lannister's to form ranks. Then we have to look at the troop placements. It is the Karstark's, Cerwyn's, Hornwood's and Manderly's that are used the most, rather than the Frey's, Glover's, Dustin's etc. It could be argued that this is simply because they are the most powerful, but looking closely there seems to be something deeper.

Halys Hornwood was petitioning to be granted hunting privileges north of a ridge and be given a holdfast taken from his grandfather. The Bolton's are the Northern neighbours of the Hornwood's, meaning Hornwood would be cutting into Bolton land to do this and odds are it's the Boltons that own that holdfast now. Furthermore, the Hornwoods are a semi-powerful house comparable to the likes of Cerwyn and Umber. Halys Hornwood was killed in battle and his levies were among those most badly hit by the Lannister's. The Karstark's, Cerwyn's and Manderly's are some of the top powers in the North and the heir of both Karhold and White Harbour end up captured, with Lord Cerwyn dead.

It definitely seems to me that Roose let Tywin win on the chance that he could later claim "Well, I let you win on the Green Fork and weakened the Starks. Let me live" should Robb lose. He also weakened his rivals in the process, allowing Ramsay greater freedom in the North with the 600 heavy cavalry he left him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roose's mission on the Green Fork was not to win the battle but to occupy the Lannister's attention long enough for Robb to get his army to Riverrun unawares and smash the Lann army there.

So it is perfectly consistent for Roose to engage in only a token battle at the GF so he can retreat with an army afterward. Also note that the banners Tyrion sees that morning include Stark, Karstark, Cerwyn, Hornwood, Glover and Frey, but no Bolton.

I personally don't think Roose decided to betray Robb until after he lost Winterfell, the Freys and the Karstarks, but he's a pretty cagey guy so he was probably intent on preserving his own forces no matter how the war turned out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Nocturne said:

This has probably been discussed at some point, but general consensus that i see is that Roose only betrayed Robb after he started making imbecile decisions like: beheading Karstark and not marrying the Frey girl.

So for this theory to work, we are going to make one assumption: that Roose is a capable commander. There's no real hard evidence that he is up there with the best of the best, but there isn't evidence that he is a bad commander either.

First battle of the war that involves the Northern houses is the Battle on the Greek Fork. Here a capable commander would not have rushed with his small batch of men the vastly superior in numbers Lannister army. A capable commander would have taken advantage of the terrain, by going upriver and holding the higher ground. The Lannister could have still won if they attacked Roose in this position, but would have lost an immense deal of their own men.

Knowing Tywin is a smart and cautious man, he would not have taken the bait, and would instead go for Harrenhall. But this would extend his army, possibly outspent their supplies, and the most important thing? Get trapped between two Northern armies, because Robb could have followed up shortly.

Instead Roose, choose to reveal his position to Tywin, attack the larger army and loose a lot of Stark loyalist in the process. So my bottom line is, that Roose was planning to betray Robb from the get go, the Bolton - Frey - Lannister alliance that happened later on, was just luck on his side to further aid his plan.

Rather than pursue Roose, Tywin withdrew back to the Trident after defeating Roose at the Green Fork. Upon learning that Jaime had been captured and his army destroyed, Tywin retreated to Harrenhal, while continuing to raid the Riverlands with detachments commanded separately by Gregor, Amory, and the Brave Companions. Roose stepped up and seized the Trident. It should be noted that the four men of House Frey of the Twins that had been taken at the Green Fork were soon ransomed from Tywin’s host at Harrenhal. We can infer, then, that Walder sent men through Roose’s lines to Harrenhal under safe conduct from Tywin, during which time, a channel of communications among Lannister, Frey, and Bolton was opened. 

Accompanied by Oakheart and Rowan, Petyr moved north of the Mander to advise Tywin of the alliance he had brokered between Lannister and Tyrell. Rather than continuing to try to force a breach across the Red Fork, Tywin retreated to the southeast and marched down the Blackwater with Mace, arriving just in time to break Stannis’s assault on King’s Landing, and forcing Stannis to withdraw back to Dragonstone in humiliating fashion. 

Meanwhile, Rodrik marched on Winterfell, which had been seized by Theon Greyjoy. He was joined by Cley Cerwyn, Leobald Tallhart, and levies from House Manderly, an unspecified branch of House Flint, House Karstark, and House Hornwood. As Theon contemplated requesting Rodrik’s leave to take the black, Ramsay Snow returned with a force of 600 men from the Dreadfort and cut Rodrik’s army to pieces, taking them unawares and killing Rodrik, Cley, and Leobald in the process. Ramsay then sacked and burned Winterfell, taking the women and children back to the Dreadfort. 

After word spread of Stannis’s defeat, and the sack of Winterfell, reportedly caused by Theon, Roose met with Aenys and the other Freys apart from his Northmen. Roose spoke to the Freys as if he had been in contact with Tywin. The Freys did not yet know of Robb’s betrayal, but neither did Roose. After the Greyjoy invasion and the Lannister-Tyrell victory over Stannis, they wanted Robb to sue for peace. At that point there was no doubt that Roose had concluded that the Young Wolf’s cause was lost. In some quarters he was being called the King Who Lost the North and he had been unable to win the allegiance of any of the great houses other than Tully. On the other side of the coin, Lannister had allied with Tyrell and secured the allegiances of most of the Storm Lords and houses in the Crownlands. Tyrion had also brokered the apparent alliance with Dorne. 

Although Roose did not in any way cause Stannis’s defeat at the Blackwater, he might have ordered Ramsay to betray Rodrik and to sack and burn Winterfell. But even if he did not order the destruction of Robb’s seat, he actively betrayed Robb when, in concert with Lord Tywin, and unbeknownst to the Young Wolf, he dispatched Robett Glover, Harrion Karstark, and Helman Tallhart, who had recently retaken Darry, to march on Duskendale, where they were caught in a trap between Randall Tarly and Gregor Clegane. This action was ordered before Roose knew of Robb’s betrayal of Walder, and before Robb executed Rickard. 

As to Roose's competence, he was ordered to march on and engage a superior enemy to draw that enemy away from the Trident. To better his odds he stole a march, but Tywin was not caught off guard, and Tywin's superior numbers forced Roose to withdraw. He apparently retreated in good order since he only lost a third of his command. After Tywin withdrew to Harrenhal, Roose stepped up and seized the Trident. Once he resolved to betray Robb, he deftly disposed of less reliable forces, negotiated favorable terms with Tywin, and received considerable support from Frey. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I sort of agree with Free Northman. He didn't plan on betraying Robb from the start, but he definitely threw the battle of the Green Fork and was keeping his options open, while at the same time advancing his own agenda's.

For one, the Stark archers aren't used until the two armies are locked together, meaning Roose was likely killing as many of his own men as he was enemies (think show Ramsay at the Battle of the Bastards). The night march was clever, but he wasted it by blowing horns and standing on a hill rather and allowing the Lannister's to form ranks. Then we have to look at the troop placements. It is the Karstark's, Cerwyn's, Hornwood's and Manderly's that are used the most, rather than the Frey's, Glover's, Dustin's etc. It could be argued that this is simply because they are the most powerful, but looking closely there seems to be something deeper.

Halys Hornwood was petitioning to be granted hunting privileges north of a ridge and be given a holdfast taken from his grandfather. The Bolton's are the Northern neighbours of the Hornwood's, meaning Hornwood would be cutting into Bolton land to do this and odds are it's the Boltons that own that holdfast now. Furthermore, the Hornwoods are a semi-powerful house comparable to the likes of Cerwyn and Umber. Halys Hornwood was killed in battle and his levies were among those most badly hit by the Lannister's. The Karstark's, Cerwyn's and Manderly's are some of the top powers in the North and the heir of both Karhold and White Harbour end up captured, with Lord Cerwyn dead.

It definitely seems to me that Roose let Tywin win on the chance that he could later claim "Well, I let you win on the Green Fork and weakened the Starks. Let me live" should Robb lose. He also weakened his rivals in the process, allowing Ramsay greater freedom in the North with the 600 heavy cavalry he left him.

Good detail regarding "a certain holdfast taken from [Halys's] grandfather, and hunting rights north of a certain ridge." It's not determinative, but is suggestive that Bolton and Hornwood were at odds. On the other hand, he also wanted to dam the White Knife, which would have been adverse to Manderly. So, this detail might only have been intended to explore and show the difficultis Robb faced in leading his father's bannermen. Moreover, Bolton could not have anticipated that Daryn would be killed in the Whispering Wood, putting the succession in such crisis. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Good detail regarding "a certain holdfast taken from [Halys's] grandfather, and hunting rights north of a certain ridge." It's not determinative, but is suggestive that Bolton and Hornwood were at odds. On the other hand, he also wanted to dam the White Knife, which would have been adverse to Manderly. So, this detail might only have been intended to explore and show the difficultis Robb faced in leading his father's bannermen. Moreover, Bolton could not have anticipated that Daryn would be killed in the Whispering Wood, putting the succession in such crisis. 

That was just pure coincidence. Roose also had no way of knowing that Halys would be killed. On the other hand, the ridge and holdfast definitely imply an antagonistic relationship between Bolton and Hornwood; combined with the placement of the Hornwood troops on the front line and Roose holding all of his men back, it seems to me that he wanted their forces to be as damaged as possible (along with house's like Manderly and Karstark and Cerwyn) so that IF Robb lost, and IF he got a chance at Winterfell any possible opposition would be as weak as he could make it. Daryn and Halys both dying was simply a pleasing set of coincidence's to him, one he took complete advantage of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always felt he left his options open and preserved his own men for further gain in the North later if things go awry.  My interpretation of the moment he made the decision with the Frey's to abandon Robb completely was when he went hunting after that meeting with them as described above by LM.  He brought back from the hunt 2 adult wolves and 3 pups, to skin and make use of their pelts. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Roose was definitely planning for his own best interests from the start.  

If we take the Green Fork as an example, Roose force marches overnight, tiring his men out before the potential battle.  Now, this is a great way to lose the battle, but it works.  Tywin's forces are caught with their pants down.  However, instead of attacking while the camp is in disarray (at which point their numerical disadvantage matters far less if at all), Roose pulls up to form battlelines and give Tywin's forces time to organize, turning it from a potential massacre into a fight against a significantly superior foe. Even after he engages, the Northern battleplan has a few things that seem to reveal that Roose is trying to throw the fight. 

Steve Atwell of RacefortheIronThrone does a much better job of explaining it than I do (complete with real historical examples), but the battle is a perfect how to for how to lose a battle if you're Roose. Perhaps this could just be GRRM going with what looks cool and is disregarding military accuracy (as he does with siege assaults), but his military failings fit perfectly with Roose as a schemer. 

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/chapter-by-chapter-analysis-tyrion-viii/ 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Rather than pursue Roose, Tywin withdrew back to the Trident after defeating Roose at the Green Fork. Upon learning that Jaime had been captured and his army destroyed, Tywin retreated to Harrenhal, while continuing to raid the Riverlands with detachments commanded separately by Gregor, Amory, and the Brave Companions. Roose stepped up and seized the Trident. It should be noted that the four men of House Frey of the Twins that had been taken at the Green Fork were soon ransomed from Tywin’s host at Harrenhal. We can infer, then, that Walder sent men through Roose’s lines to Harrenhal under safe conduct from Tywin, during which time, a channel of communications among Lannister, Frey, and Bolton was opened. 

Accompanied by Oakheart and Rowan, Petyr moved north of the Mander to advise Tywin of the alliance he had brokered between Lannister and Tyrell. Rather than continuing to try to force a breach across the Red Fork, Tywin retreated to the southeast and marched down the Blackwater with Mace, arriving just in time to break Stannis’s assault on King’s Landing, and forcing Stannis to withdraw back to Dragonstone in humiliating fashion. 

Meanwhile, Rodrik marched on Winterfell, which had been seized by Theon Greyjoy. He was joined by Cley Cerwyn, Leobald Tallhart, and levies from House Manderly, an unspecified branch of House Flint, House Karstark, and House Hornwood. As Theon contemplated requesting Rodrik’s leave to take the black, Ramsay Snow returned with a force of 600 men from the Dreadfort and cut Rodrik’s army to pieces, taking them unawares and killing Rodrik, Cley, and Leobald in the process. Ramsay then sacked and burned Winterfell, taking the women and children back to the Dreadfort. 

After word spread of Stannis’s defeat, and the sack of Winterfell, reportedly caused by Theon, Roose met with Aenys and the other Freys apart from his Northmen. Roose spoke to the Freys as if he had been in contact with Tywin. The Freys did not yet know of Robb’s betrayal, but neither did Roose. After the Greyjoy invasion and the Lannister-Tyrell victory over Stannis, they wanted Robb to sue for peace. At that point there was no doubt that Roose had concluded that the Young Wolf’s cause was lost. In some quarters he was being called the King Who Lost the North and he had been unable to win the allegiance of any of the great houses other than Tully. On the other side of the coin, Lannister had allied with Tyrell and secured the allegiances of most of the Storm Lords and houses in the Crownlands. Tyrion had also brokered the apparent alliance with Dorne. 

Although Roose did not in any way cause Stannis’s defeat at the Blackwater, he might have ordered Ramsay to betray Rodrik and to sack and burn Winterfell. But even if he did not order the destruction of Robb’s seat, he actively betrayed Robb when, in concert with Lord Tywin, and unbeknownst to the Young Wolf, he dispatched Robett Glover, Harrion Karstark, and Helman Tallhart, who had recently retaken Darry, to march on Duskendale, where they were caught in a trap between Randall Tarly and Gregor Clegane. This action was ordered before Roose knew of Robb’s betrayal of Walder, and before Robb executed Rickard. 

As to Roose's competence, he was ordered to march on and engage a superior enemy to draw that enemy away from the Trident. To better his odds he stole a march, but Tywin was not caught off guard, and Tywin's superior numbers forced Roose to withdraw. He apparently retreated in good order since he only lost a third of his command. After Tywin withdrew to Harrenhal, Roose stepped up and seized the Trident. Once he resolved to betray Robb, he deftly disposed of less reliable forces, negotiated favorable terms with Tywin, and received considerable support from Frey. 

Yeah, Roose made the final decision to turn on Robb at Harrenhall after the Greyjoy invasion of the North and the defeat of Stannis on the Blackwater. That's completely correct. There's actually a POV chapter of the very moment he switches, though we didn't know it then; it's one of Arya's and after meeting with the Frey's he sends Glover, Tallhart and Karstark forces to their deaths at Duskendale before going out to hunt wolves. Not sure about ordering Ramsay to burn Winterfell, seems he'd want it intact (Less work to move into later, for one) and it seems to be one of Ramsay's spur of the moment things

However, you are incorrect as to the Green Fork. Yes Roose's primary directive was to delay Tywin, however does that mean he can't try to win? Tywin may have had superior numbers but Roose had a position that would have negated that. Tywin was caught off guard, but instead of pressing that advantage he forms formation (crap ones at that) and patiently waits for Tywin to get his army arranged. Following that, Roose makes nearly no use of what cavalry he does have, charges the Lannister army (instead of holding the hill he was set up on and forcing the Lannister's to come to them) and only uses his archers once they have an equal chance to kill his own men as they do the enemy. Seems like he was keeping his options open: if Robb wins, then he's completed his objective and delayed Tywin. If Robb loses then he's got a way to get himself in the Lannister good-books ("I never really followed Stark's, my Lord. Look at the Green Fork! I did this, that and the other to make sure you won, Lord Tywin. I was on your side all along and isn't that who you want to rule the North?)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don´t think (like many others) there was a coincidence we have Arya on the spot as POW when this happens:

"Tell him to put the captives to the sword and the castle to the torch, by command of the king. Then he is to join forces by with Robert Glover and strike east toward Duskendale...."

"I will hunt today"...."It is wolves I mean to hunt"

This is excellent symbolism and in my book leaves no doubt exactly when Roose decided to betray Robb. It is almost too obvious.

Note that this is before Ramsay have taken Winterfell. That happens later. What we see here is a combination of general unrest (Earlier in the same chapter some Freys argues that the war has been lost and Roose is not exactly dismissive), the taking of Winterfell and, most importantly, Stannis loss at Blackwater and the Tyrells and the Reach joining the Lannisters.

So, while he certainly held his options open and (of course, I would have done the same) made sure that other families would take the heaviest casualities, he didn´t turn traitor until Blackwater and until he had been able to work out a deal with Tywin after the "Jaime-situation". The symbolism of hunting wolves is very clear. The idea that Roose flunked the battles before, I see as unlikely. He still wanted to win, but took no risks with his own sworn men and had no problems aiming arrows to westerners and northerners alike.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Roose kept his options open from the start. He likely saw the War as an opportunity to advance his fortunes, whichever way it went. Remember that he was faced with a superior foe - having only about 600 cavalry vs Tywin's 7500. So his only hope was to throw the dice and hope to catch them unawares. If it succeeded, he would be the hero. And he would likely have gained a lot of rewards from Robb's victories as a result. However, if he failed, he made sure that very few of the losses were his own Bolton troops, while the other Northern lords would be significantly weakened.

At the same time, he left behind a very strong force at the Dreadfort, to capitalize on the weakness of his rivals in the North while the Starks were away. Then, after Theon took Winterfell, he took the final decision to abandon Robb's cause.

I agree with this for the most part. Roose was always keeping his options opened. With the forced march grants him two stellar options: 1) He wins a victory and is a hero to the cause 2) He loses but puts men from neighboring lands (Hornwood etc) in front so it would weaken those Houses militarily. By getting a command he can constantly put himself in this win win situation.

I don't think he threw the Battle of the Green Fork, he wasn't going to win in a fair fight due to the Lannister having more knights. So the forced march was a gambit that worked whether he won or loss.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I agree with this for the most part. Roose was always keeping his options opened. With the forced march grants him two stellar options: 1) He wins a victory and is a hero to the cause 2) He loses but puts men from neighboring lands (Hornwood etc) in front so it would weaken those Houses militarily. By getting a command he can constantly put himself in this win win situation.

I don't think he threw the Battle of the Green Fork, he wasn't going to win in a fair fight due to the Lannister having more knights. So the forced march was a gambit that worked whether he won or loss.

It's the fact that it did work. Short of actively giving up the advantage like he did, he has 15,000 infantry and 600 cavalry hitting a panicked camp of 20,000 just awoken by the sentries.  It's not as "easy" as sacking Kings Landing or Mereen after the army has access, but it's as close to a sure thing as is possible in military engagements. 

He also has spearman charge cavalry and archers, only ever has his own archers shoot to the one area of the field they could possibly kill men, has his main attack go to the flank that should be an obvious trap (and is positioned in such a way so he would be easily surrounded), ignores terrain features that would give him an advantage over Tywin, negating the infantry vs cavalry issues.  

Either GRRM doesn't know military strategy beyond numbers! or Roose threw the fight. Keeping his own men in the reserve or not committing all his forces has plausible deniability.  Things like not using your archers early, charging spearmen, ignoring the high ground, and surrounding the advantage of surprise do not. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2017 at 6:13 AM, Nocturne said:

This has probably been discussed at some point, but general consensus that i see is that Roose only betrayed Robb after he started making imbecile decisions like: beheading Karstark and not marrying the Frey girl.

So for this theory to work, we are going to make one assumption: that Roose is a capable commander. There's no real hard evidence that he is up there with the best of the best, but there isn't evidence that he is a bad commander either.

First battle of the war that involves the Northern houses is the Battle on the Greek Fork. Here a capable commander would not have rushed with his small batch of men the vastly superior in numbers Lannister army. A capable commander would have taken advantage of the terrain, by going upriver and holding the higher ground. The Lannister could have still won if they attacked Roose in this position, but would have lost an immense deal of their own men.

Knowing Tywin is a smart and cautious man, he would not have taken the bait, and would instead go for Harrenhall. But this would extend his army, possibly outspent their supplies, and the most important thing? Get trapped between two Northern armies, because Robb could have followed up shortly.

Instead Roose, choose to reveal his position to Tywin, attack the larger army and loose a lot of Stark loyalist in the process. So my bottom line is, that Roose was planning to betray Robb from the get go, the Bolton - Frey - Lannister alliance that happened later on, was just luck on his side to further aid his plan.

 

It can be inferred from the text in an Arya chapter that Roose turned cloak when Robb abandoned his deal with Walder to marry a Frey girl. It was then that the alliance crumbled. The Freys then left Robb and plotted their return to the King's peace 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It can be inferred from the text in an Arya chapter that Roose turned cloak when Robb abandoned his deal with Walder to marry a Frey girl. It was then that the alliance crumbled. The Freys then left Robb and plotted their return to the King's peace 

If you check some of the posts upthread you will see that Roose sent Robb's men into Tywin's trap at Duskendale before he learned about Robb's betrayal of Walder. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If you check some of the posts upthread you will see that Roose sent Robb's men into Tywin's trap at Duskendale before he learned about Robb's betrayal of Walder. 

The wolf hunting moment is the moment it should be clear to the reader that Roose is betraying Robb (or at least the first strong signal).  But so many of his actions before that on't line up that it's hard to make the case that he wasn't actively hurting Robb's chances of winning before then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If you check some of the posts upthread you will see that Roose sent Robb's men into Tywin's trap at Duskendale before he learned about Robb's betrayal of Walder. 

Not necessarily as they happen only a few paragraphs from each other. Arya learns of it later in the day as she meets Elmar who is angry about not being able to marry a princess but the order to Duskendale happens at the start of that very day.

 

At the start of that day, just before he gives the order, we are told how Roose is receiving letters from his wife at the Twins almost every day (having just received another). 

It is more than possible that Roose knew a few hours before the Freys or Arya only finds out later in the day from Elmar, the Freys having known it for a few hours before that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...