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Who should have commanded the Northern host at GF and what should they have done?


Floki of the Ironborn

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First: Imagine you're Robb Stark at Moat Cailin. Your mother just hinted that Greatjon Umber might not be the best choice to lead the infantry against Tywin Lannister. Which of the lords will you appoint as commander of the infantry, which lords go with them, and which lords ride with you and the main cavalry?

Second: Imagine that you're the commander whom you appointed in part one. What is your battle plan against Tywin Lannister?

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Part 1:

I choose Robett Glover to lead the infantry. He is a brave man while also being very loyal to House Stark. Helman Tallhart, Harrison Karstark, and Wylis Manderly will go with him. Meanwhile, I keep Lords Umber, Karstark, Bolton, Hornwood, and Glover close by my side. Lady Mormont, Stevron Frey, and the personal guard all join me as well. I leave Lord Cerwyn at the Twins.

Part 2:

I lead my forces on a night march to get the element of surprise. Then I capture some Lannister outriders, steal their uniforms and give them to some spies to infiltrate the camp. Start some acts of sabotage, then launch several large guerrilla attacks with my archers and cavalry. If the Lannisters engage me in full force, I have my main troops in a defensive shield wall. This will keep the Lannister cavalry at bay, just like with Hastings, except I don't break formation. I'll hold Tywin's attention for as long as possible, and if he tries to retreat, he'll have me on his tail with whatever cavalry I have left.

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First: I give command to Rickard Karstark. The man's an experienced warrior with an ear for strategy (given the important roles he played during the War of the Five Kings before he went berserk over Jaime's release). I'll take Greatjon Umber, Roose Bolton, Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, and Halys Hornwood. Karstark gets Robett Glover, Helman Tallhart, and Medger Cerwyn. I'll leave Wylis Manderly at the Twins.

Second: I sneak over to the Lannister forces and try to get in between them and the route to Riverrun. I find a choke point and defend it, Thermopylae style, while sending my cavalry to launch hit-and-run tactics on Lannister outriders and their baggage train.

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42 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

Second: I sneak over to the Lannister forces and try to get in between them and the route to Riverrun. I find a choke point and defend it, Thermopylae style, while sending my cavalry to launch hit-and-run tactics on Lannister outriders and their baggage train.

Where in that region was a Thermopylae spot? You'd just be driven into the river and drown or get taken prisoner.

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We cannot say definitively who would have been the best contender to lead the infantry, but we do know from Jons immediate reaction to finding out the Boltons were in control of the north that Eddard never trusted Roose Bolton, it is not unreasonable of us to say he should have picked someone else such as Karstark, Glover, Cerwyn, etc.

Whoever commands the army should not fight Tywins army due to Tywin having more men and all the cavalry.  This is not a battle that the northern commander can win.  He should make Tywin think he is coming at him as long as possible, and then retreat north at the last minute.  If Tywin follows all the better, if he moves south then the northern commander must follow and harass the rear as much as possible.  The infantry should then take up defensive positions at the fords of the Trident to keep the eastern side safe.

After his victory at Riverrun Robb should have had the Blackfish take control of the cavalry and have him kill all of Tywins raiders.  Without them his army could not remain fed in Harrenhall.  While the Blackfish is doing this Edmure should be gathering all the forces he can.  He gathered 14k to fight Tywin on short notice when he moved north from Harrenhall, and that was after Tywin had raided everywhere for so long.  Being on friendly turf and having superior numbers Robb should have forced a confrontation with Tywin, that likely would have gone his way and ended the war, regardless of a new army in the Westerlands.

 

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8 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

We cannot say definitively who would have been the best contender to lead the infantry, but we do know from Jons immediate reaction to finding out the Boltons were in control of the north that Eddard never trusted Roose Bolton, it is not unreasonable of us to say he should have picked someone else such as Karstark, Glover, Cerwyn, etc.

Whoever commands the army should not fight Tywins army due to Tywin having more men and all the cavalry.  This is not a battle that the northern commander can win.  He should make Tywin think he is coming at him as long as possible, and then retreat north at the last minute.  If Tywin follows all the better, if he moves south then the northern commander must follow and harass the rear as much as possible.  The infantry should then take up defensive positions at the fords of the Trident to keep the eastern side safe.

After his victory at Riverrun Robb should have had the Blackfish take control of the cavalry and have him kill all of Tywins raiders.  Without them his army could not remain fed in Harrenhall.  While the Blackfish is doing this Edmure should be gathering all the forces he can.  He gathered 14k to fight Tywin on short notice when he moved north from Harrenhall, and that was after Tywin had raided everywhere for so long.  Being on friendly turf and having superior numbers Robb should have forced a confrontation with Tywin, that likely would have gone his way and ended the war, regardless of a new army in the Westerlands.

 

The only problems with that are that Tywin might not take the bait long enough for Robb to secure Riverrun. And in that scenario, an army that is mostly infantry can't do much against an army with over seven thousand heavy cavalry. The harassing of the rear would be too risky for your forces. The only defence the infantry would have against cavalry like that is a shield wall, which doesn't lend itself to chasing after another army.

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First Part: I choose Rickard Karstark. The man is experienced, competent and not likely to either recklessly charge (GreatJon) or sacrifice my men (Roose). He can take Robbett Glover, Helman Tallhart, Wylis Manderly and Medgar Cerwyn as sub commanders, along with Aenys Frey and several of his kin. Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, GreatJon, Roose, Stevron and the 30 young sons of lords come with me. Halys Hornwood stays at the twins with a few hundred men.

Second Part: Start of the same way canon Bolton did with a night march, except instead of politely waking them up with some horns and twiddling my thumbs waiting for the Lannister's to form up. Instead, the second we get within sight, whatever cavalry I have is used to charge the still waking Lannister camps and cause as much chaos as possible, before retreating back once the Lannister's start fighting back. Once the cavalry starts withdrawing, the archers will take start peppering the Lannister's. While all this is happening, the infantry will have been steadily moving up. If all goes well, the infantry reach the Lannister camp as or before they can organize (at which point my own archers will cease firing), negating any advantage their 3000 extra men give them. If they manage to get ready before the infantry reach them, then I use the hills to form a defensive position and hold out, using shields to and terrain to counter their heavy cavalry and archers. In the former scenario, I win, almost certainly. In the latter, it's give or take but if I have to retreat then my own casualties would be lower than in canon, and the Lannister losses much higher.

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Howland Reed. I'd immediately send for him, and I don't see him refusing to obey my order as he doesn't seem like a traitor. at all. I think he is the only northener in my service who has the right temperament for a feint attack, but without the treacherous nature of the Boltons. Rickard seems to honor-obsessed and hot-headed, so I can't take him for the same reasons I can't take the Greatjon. 

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1: Keep everything the same but leave Galbart Glover in command 

2: Give him more explicit orders. I'd have had him march the army down the KR and stay near Tywin but not to attack unless he's caught with his pants down (which won't happen). He'll definitely send outriders and raiding parties, preferably in the night though it's tricky, to the outskirts of the Lannister camp. It's spread over leagues, so I'd want to camp around ten or so miles away on high, defensible ground and make a big noise of it. I'd also tell him to hide the Frey banners so he can't tell that this might not be my entire army. 

Frankly Roose's night march probably would have worked if he had either kept the high ground or attacked before the Lannister's formed up their entire god damn army (preferably the former). Robb should have been more explicit and told Roose to shadow Tywin but not attack, and then spread that information to the important sub-commanders (Hornwood, Cerwyn, et al). Roose having command isn't nearly as bad if he knows he'll have to answer to Robb if shit hits the fan.

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6 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Howland Reed. 

First off, Reed would take too long to (a) find, and (b) get to the army in time for the attack. Robb couldn't just sit back and wait for Reed to arrive. Secondly, who says Reed has any actual experience leading troops into battle? For all we know, he was the only crannogman to join Robert's Rebellion.

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6 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

First off, Reed would take too long to (a) find, and (b) get to the army in time for the attack. Robb couldn't just sit back and wait for Reed to arrive. Secondly, who says Reed has any actual experience leading troops into battle? For all we know, he was the only crannogman to join Robert's Rebellion.

I'm at Moat Cailin, right? The Crannogmen are practically next door. And an army on foot takes a while, longer than a few men on horseback. Worst case, Reed would join the army on their way south.

At least we know Reed's a veteran. Plus he isn't supposed to engage Tywin in a pitched battle anyway. 

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31 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Howland Reed. I'd immediately send for him, and I don't see him refusing to obey my order as he doesn't seem like a traitor. at all. I think he is the only northener in my service who has the right temperament for a feint attack, but without the treacherous nature of the Boltons. Rickard seems to honor-obsessed and hot-headed, so I can't take him for the same reasons I can't take the Greatjon. 

Reed's loyal and good at directing guerrilla attacks in the neck. I don't think he'd work in this case. Even if your tactic is to not engage in a pitched fight, you'd still need someone who could work with commanding a large force of infantry to shadow and feint against a larger host. I just don't think Howland's the right man for this job. If you aren't engaging in a pitched battle then someone like one of the Glover's or Helman would be a decent pick. For a pitched battle that you want done right, the same options apply but with Karstark added to it as well

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4 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

The only problems with that are that Tywin might not take the bait long enough for Robb to secure Riverrun. And in that scenario, an army that is mostly infantry can't do much against an army with over seven thousand heavy cavalry. The harassing of the rear would be too risky for your forces. The only defence the infantry would have against cavalry like that is a shield wall, which doesn't lend itself to chasing after another army.

Tywin took the bait long enough before Roose ever fought him.  In my scenario he does not turn south until the same time he did anyway.  As for infantry pursuing the army, ya to a degree they won't be able to do much but Tywins army has infantry too and also a baggage train that has to move slower just by nature.  The most important point is simply for them to secure the Trident so the east side can be safe and raise crops and they can call up men.  Limiting the area Tywin can raid for food.

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22 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 As for infantry pursuing the army, ya to a degree they won't be able to do much but Tywins army has infantry too and also a baggage train that has to move slower just by nature.  

Yes, but then Tywin could simply enforce the rearguard with more heavy cavalry as a deterrent.

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19 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Yes, but then Tywin could simply enforce the rearguard with more heavy cavalry as a deterrent.

Agreed, I'm not suggesting that Tywins army will be defeated, just that it would be proper military doctrine to harass his rear if possible until they secure the Trident and then take up defensive positions at the crossings. 

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15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

You'd just be driven into the river and drown or get taken prisoner.

Tywin and my forces are almost evenly matched in terms of size. And if a shield wall holds, that nullifies all of Tywin's cavalry, and the fact that we both have archers means that that's cancelled out too. Just put our archers in the the centre of the block so they can fire over the heads of the infantry. Then I'd also send whatever cavalry I have in some kind of ambush wherever the Lannisters least expect an attack. Maybe even take out out Tywin at the rearguard?

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6 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 Then I'd also send whatever cavalry I have in some kind of ambush wherever the Lannisters least expect an attack. Maybe even take out out Tywin at the rearguard?

That sounds pretty damn confident. You'd have five hundred cavalry against a five thousand-strong reserve. Even if you do manage to kill Tywin, and that's a big if already, don't expect to see any of those cavalry to come back alive. It would be a suicide mission so reckless that the Light Brigade would tell you to tone it down. 

That said, of all the answers posted so far, that battle plan seems the most in-character for the commander you chose.

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5 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Reed's loyal and good at directing guerrilla attacks in the neck. I don't think he'd work in this case. Even if your tactic is to not engage in a pitched fight, you'd still need someone who could work with commanding a large force of infantry to shadow and feint against a larger host. I just don't think Howland's the right man for this job. If you aren't engaging in a pitched battle then someone like one of the Glover's or Helman would be a decent pick. For a pitched battle that you want done right, the same options apply but with Karstark added to it as well

The problem is, we don't know what Reed did during Robert's rebellion. Maybe he did have a commanding position, maybe he didn't. 

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8 hours ago, John Doe said:

The problem is, we don't know what Reed did during Robert's rebellion. Maybe he did have a commanding position, maybe he didn't. 

Personally, I doubt it. Lord of House Reed or not, the crannogmen are fish out of water when they aren't in the Neck. They don't have a real military, and their sole advantage is the fact that they live in a region which almost everyone else can't endure. But what experience do they have outside of that location?
And on another note, none of the other lords, knights, or masters would endure having to take orders from Howland Reed. It'd be like taking the highest ranking Skagosi and putting him in charge of a Northern division. Prejudice would take over. If a man like Davos Seaworth is sneered at, and if a young Howland Reed is disrespected and beaten up by squires, I doubt that Reed would have much authority beyond whatever few crannogmen actually went to war with him.

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