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Let's speculate wildly about Lady Dustin


Illyrio Mo'Parties

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5 hours ago, M_Tootles said:

You didn't say: where'd I mention that on reddit (prior to today)? just curious.

I don't remember: you said something about the Hornwood situation and suggested that it had implications elsewhere in the story - I thought of Lady Dustin

I think that's what happned

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  • 9 months later...

I hope it isn't considered necromancy to revive an older thread here.

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Ser Rodrik nodded. "Sad and gentle, and not at all uncomely for a woman of her years, for all her modesty. Yet a danger to the peace of your brother's realm nonetheless."

"Her?" Bran said, astonished.

Maester Luwin answered. "With no direct heir, there are sure to be many claimants contending for the Hornwood lands. The Tallharts, Flints, and Karstarks all have ties to House Hornwood through the female line, and the Glovers are fostering Lord Harys's bastard at Deepwood Motte. The Dreadfort has no claim that I know, but the lands adjoin, and Roose Bolton is not one to overlook such a chance."

Ser Rodrik tugged at his whiskers. "In such cases, her liege lord must find her a suitable match." (COK BII)

 

The question is why is Lady Dustin's situation different from Lady Hornwood's. Wouldn't it make a huge difference if their was a direct heir and the succession was unequivocal?

The question that arises from that would be why she is still calling the shots in the Barrowlands. The direct heir would have to be a minor who doesn't have a closer relative than her to act as guardian and rule in their stead. As her husband is already more than sixteen years dead, the only possibility that comes to mind is that the first heir - maybe an orphaned nephew or niece of her husband - has died in the meantime and left the next heir, a small child right now, in the same position. He'd technically be Lord Dustin, but old Lady Dustin is still the one in charge. 

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45 minutes ago, Zapho said:

I hope it isn't considered necromancy to revive an older thread here.

The question is why is Lady Dustin's situation different from Lady Hornwood's. Wouldn't it make a huge difference if their was a direct heir and the succession was unequivocal?

The question that arises from that would be why she is still calling the shots in the Barrowlands. The direct heir would have to be a minor who doesn't have a closer relative than her to act as guardian and rule in their stead. As her husband is already more than sixteen years dead, the only possibility that comes to mind is that the first heir - maybe an orphaned nephew or niece of her husband - has died in the meantime and left the next heir, a small child right now, in the same position. He'd technically be Lord Dustin, but old Lady Dustin is still the one in charge. 

My theory, which would solve this conundrum relatively neatly, is that the links between the Dustins and Ryswells go back more than one generation. Specifically, I suggest that Lord Ryswell's mother (Lady Dustin's grandmother) or Lord Ryswell's wife (Lady Dustin's mother) was a Dustin. Meaning that when the last Lord Dustin (Lady Dustin's husband) died without issue, the Dustin line of succession reverted to Lord Ryswell's children, which would be the three quarrelsome Ryswell sons and Lady Dustin herself.

In that case, it could either be that at the request of Lady Dustin, the brothers were willing to defer taking the seat of Barrowton until after her death, or else if she was perhaps the oldest of the Ryswell children, plus having been married to Lord Dustin himself, it may have been politicaly more acceptable for her to be Lord Dustin's heir in this case. Since she does not have children, and likely cannot produce any more due to her age, the next Ryswell brother would then be content to know that he is her heir in any case, and that his children would ultimately inherit Barrowton.

In any case, some variation of this scenario, where Lady Dustin had Dustin ancestors from her mother or grandmother's line, would solve the mystery, in my view.

EDIT

Oops. This being a relatively old thread, I see I've previously posted my theory on this very same thread. Thought it was another thread. Anyway, here it is again, just worded slightly differently.

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There are other Dustins, Barbrey herself confirms as much and once Barbrey dies, they would inherit. Honorable Ned probably let her take the reins out of guilt and since those Dustin relatives are distant, everyone decided to let Barbrey be since it made things easier in the aftermath of war.

An example of this could be the Rosby succession issue.

In Hornwood case I don't think marrying Donella off was a permanant solution either; It is a temporary one to get a "strong male" figure to rule the land, after all it is war time and there are many claimants to that seat too, give it to one and you'll upset the others.

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1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There are other Dustins, Barbrey herself confirms as much and once Barbrey dies, they would inherit. Honorable Ned probably let her take the reins out of guilt and since those Dustin relatives are distant, everyone decided to let Barbrey be since it made things easier in the aftermath of war.

An example of this could be the Rosby succession issue.

In Hornwood case I don't think marrying Donella off was a permanant solution either; It is a temporary one to get a "strong male" figure to rule the land, after all it is war time and there are many claimants to that seat too, give it to one and you'll upset the others.

Would you mind linking me to the quote where Lady Dustin confirms the existence of other Dustins? I can't seem to recall it.

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34 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Would you mind linking me to the quote where Lady Dustin confirms the existence of other Dustins? I can't seem to recall it.

Here it is

Quote

"Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go. He had kin he might have sent in his stead. An uncle famed for his prowess with an axe, a great-uncle who had fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. But he was a man and full of pride, nothing would serve but that he lead the Barrowton levies himself. I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father's herds. My lord swore that he would ride him home when the war was done.

 

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4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Here it is

 

Ah yes, that quote. Of course, both are vaguely implied to be older men, even at the time of Robert's Rebellion. Interesting that Lord Dustin, in his twenties or thirties at the time, only had uncles and great uncles to send, when these men surely should have had sons of a warrior age at the time. Possibly implying that they had no children?

I would think that if any of them had a son or grandson alive today, they would surely be lined up in Barrowton to succeed Lord Dustin at his death.

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12 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ah yes, that quote. Of course, both are vaguely implied to be older men, even at the time of Robert's Rebellion. Interesting that Lord Dustin, in his twenties or thirties at the time, only had uncles and great uncles to send, when these men surely should have had sons of a warrior age at the time. Possibly implying that they had no children?

I would think that if any of them had a son or grandson alive today, they would surely be lined up in Barrowton to succeed Lord Dustin at his death.

Well his great uncle may not have any children or may have lost them but it doesn't mean he has no grandchildren who wasn't of age back then. As for his uncle, he was obviously the younger brother of previous Dustin lord so he would also possibly marry much later than him.

As for lining up for succession; If Honorable Ned says she'll rule until her death but Dustins will take back Barrowton after her, would it be wise to oppose him and risk all instead of waiting what, 30-40 years at most? Especially with her father, one of the major houses of the North who also breeds horses living next door to them? Most of the major houses are thousands of years old, I think it would be much more preferrable to them to wait some time instead of seeing their houses wiped out. After all, Dustins themselves have witnessed two of their neighbours, Ryders and Marsh Kings, get wiped by Starks, who were then Replaced by Ryswells and Reeds.

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6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well his great uncle may not have any children or may have lost them but it doesn't mean he has no grandchildren who wasn't of age back then. As for his uncle, he was obviously the younger brother of previous Dustin lord so he would also possibly marry much later than him.

As for lining up for succession; If Honorable Ned says she'll rule until her death but Dustins will take back Barrowton after her, would it be wise to oppose him and risk all instead of waiting what, 30-40 years at most? Especially with her father, one of the major houses of the North who also breeds horses living next door to them? Most of the major houses are thousands of years old, I think it would be much more preferrable to them to wait some time instead of seeing their houses wiped out. After all, Dustins themselves have witnessed two of their neighbours, Ryders and Marsh Kings, get wiped by Starks, who were then Replaced by Ryswells and Reeds.

I see zero reason or chance of Ned interfering with the normal Dustin succession. Especially after they already sacrificed their Lord for him in his Rebellion against the Iron Throne. If he owed anyone anything, it was the other Dustins (assuming they exist as you propose), rather than Lady Dustin.

Nope, I think the idea that Ned interfered in the Dustin succession is dead in the water. Lady Dustin still rules because she has some inherent reason to do so, not because of Ned's interference.

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1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

EDIT

Oops. This being a relatively old thread, I see I've previously posted my theory on this very same thread. Thought it was another thread. Anyway, here it is again, just worded slightly differently.

Lol, sorry about that. I searched for threads about Lady Dustin looking for something else entirely and found this one. The question is a good one imo and it isn't really resolved. The OP is absolutely right: Lady Dustin should have to fend off marriage proposals for her finger-clippings - and violent ones to boot - if she were in the same situation as Lady Hornwood. 

The thing I was researching initially is ideas about why the hell both Roose Bolton and Lady Dustin were telling Theon of all people all those juicy details about their history. There has to be something going on here, else it would be incredibly bad writing to have Theon as an exposition POV just because he's conveniently there. 

I dunno, maybe these themes are related. Or they aren't.

 

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4 minutes ago, Zapho said:

Lol, sorry about that. I searched for threads about Lady Dustin looking for something else entirely and found this one. The question is a good one imo and it isn't really resolved. The OP is absolutely right: Lady Dustin should have to fend off marriage proposals for her finger-clippings - and violent ones to boot - if she were in the same situation as Lady Hornwood. 

The thing I was researching initially is ideas about why the hell both Roose Bolton and Lady Dustin were telling Theon of all people all those juicy details about their history. There has to be something going on here, else it would be incredibly bad writing to have Theon as an exposition POV just because he's conveniently there. 

I dunno, maybe these themes are related. Or they aren't.

 

My view: Theon is the exposition POV just because he is conveniently there.

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

My view: Theon is the exposition POV just because he is conveniently there.

This, though if we do want to "explain it away" then it might be Roose and Barb planting the seed in Theon's mind that offing Ramsay would be doing them a favour.

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From ADWD, The Prince of Winterfell

"You," said Theon. "There is you. The Lady of Barrowton, a Dustin by marriage, a Ryswell by birth."

That pleased her. She took a sip of wine, her dark eyes sparkling, and said, "The widow fo Barrowton ... and yes, if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet."

 

She corrects Theon's calling her Lady of Barrowton. She is the widow of Barrowton. 

ADWD, A ghost in Winterfell, an enumeration of every house that hates the Freys cause they lost kin at the RW.

Quote

"Even Dustins out of Barrowton." Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. "The north remembers, Frey."

She could be referring to her bannermen. She could be referring to other members of the Dustin family. As there was a mention of uncles and such who could go in her husband's stead to Robert's rebellion, I'm inclined to assume that there are Dustin family members left. 

Then there is the letter to the LC of the NW informing Jon of the taking of Moat Cailin and "Arya's" impending marriage to Ramsay. ADWD, Jon

Quote

Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appened their own marks and seals.

People have suggested this is a typo, but what if it's not? What if technically there is a Lord Dustin? 

From Reek, ADWD

Quote

...Bolton led him toward the keep, where the banners were those of the late Lord Dustin and his widowed wife. His showed a spiked crown above crossed longaxes; hers quartered those same arms with Rodrik Ryswell's golden horsehead.

This is Theon's POV. Does he really understand the technicalities of all the powerplays among northern houses?

There is no doubt that Barbrey Dustin is a powerful person in the North. She's certainly smart enough to strengthen her hold on power and to make even Roose Bolton wary of her. The way a woman becomes powerful in Westeros is always through some male. If they are holding claims of their own, they become fodder for scavenger crows very fast: Lady Ermesande, Sansa, Lady Hornwood, fArya. Even Asha is in danger of this fate (the marriage to that old castellan on Pyke). Women who rule in the name of a male on the other hand are forces to be reckoned with: Cersei as Queen Regent, Lysa Arryn, Lady Waynwood, the mother of the last king of the Vale who gave up his kingdom for a flight on a dragon ...

All this suggests that there is a male Lord Dustin somewhere who serves as figurehead for Lady Dustin's rule. And if Lady Dustin is as smart and ruthless and scheming as I am starting to think she is, she will make sure that there will always be an underage Lord there to provide legitimacy to her rule as the widow of the Barrowlands. Someone with a clear claim, no power of his own, and lots of heirs in waiting so as to not make it feasible to just remove him.

 

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1 hour ago, Zapho said:

She corrects Theon's calling her Lady of Barrowton. She is the widow of Barrowton. 

ADWD, A ghost in Winterfell, an enumeration of every house that hates the Freys cause they lost kin at the RW.

She could be referring to her bannermen. She could be referring to other members of the Dustin family. As there was a mention of uncles and such who could go in her husband's stead to Robert's rebellion, I'm inclined to assume that there are Dustin family members left. 

Then there is the letter to the LC of the NW informing Jon of the taking of Moat Cailin and "Arya's" impending marriage to Ramsay. ADWD, Jon

People have suggested this is a typo, but what if it's not? What if technically there is a Lord Dustin? 

From Reek, ADWD

This is Theon's POV. Does he really understand the technicalities of all the powerplays among northern houses?

There is no doubt that Barbrey Dustin is a powerful person in the North. She's certainly smart enough to strengthen her hold on power and to make even Roose Bolton wary of her. The way a woman becomes powerful in Westeros is always through some male. If they are holding claims of their own, they become fodder for scavenger crows very fast: Lady Ermesande, Sansa, Lady Hornwood, fArya. Even Asha is in danger of this fate (the marriage to that old castellan on Pyke). Women who rule in the name of a male on the other hand are forces to be reckoned with: Cersei as Queen Regent, Lysa Arryn, Lady Waynwood, the mother of the last king of the Vale who gave up his kingdom for a flight on a dragon ...

All this suggests that there is a male Lord Dustin somewhere who serves as figurehead for Lady Dustin's rule. And if Lady Dustin is as smart and ruthless and scheming as I am starting to think she is, she will make sure that there will always be an underage Lord there to provide legitimacy to her rule as the widow of the Barrowlands. Someone with a clear claim, no power of his own, and lots of heirs in waiting so as to not make it feasible to just remove him.

 

The signature of Lord Dustin Jon sees on that letter is a massive revelation, if it is indeed not a typo. Well spotted!

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  • 4 weeks later...
On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:04 AM, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

@M_Tootles raised a good point on reddit: the childless widow Hornwood is expected to get married again, and quickly, and it's made plain that it's ultimately her liege lord's prerogative to choose the suitor. Nobody considers this arrangement to be particularly unusual in the Hornwood case, and yet when a similar situation occurred some 15 odd years previously, Lady Dustin was allowed to remain single.

Plainly, Ned never pressed the issue. The question is, why?

And let's consider some more interesting possibilities than "because Ned was nice", or "because Dustin and her brothers vetoed it". Ned may be nice, but he always places his duty first, and, if push comes to shove, the Ryswells and the Dustin smallfolk aren't going to rebel against Winterfell.

The Dustin lands appear to border, or at least sit near to, the lands of the Ryswells, the Tallharts, the Flints of Flint's Finger, and even the Manderlys and perhaps the Cerwyns. Lady Dustin is a Ryswell by birth and her only living relatives at the time of her husband's death were her brothers, and her sister, who was at one point married to Roose Bolton: their son served Lady Dustin for four years as a page. So we can see potential claims from the Ryswells and the Boltons, both of whom would be pleased to expand their demesnes; but just as in the Hornwood case, none of the other houses would be happy about their rivals growing so strong, and it might lead to war.

Perhaps Ned thought that the issue could be put off, since Lady Dustin was so young. But he's just seen half his family die over the course of a couple of years; if anybody should realise that things can change in the blink of an eye, it's Ned. (Contradicting this point is the fact that he let the only other adult Stark join the Night's Watch before his own sons had even survived their early, dangerous years.)

So what gives? Any fucking suggestions?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And while we're at it, let's put two and two together and see if we can't come up with five. Put on your tinfoil hats and 3D glasses, please, and let's check out some Lady Dustin quotes:

  • ...if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet.
  • Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North?
  • If I were queen...

Queen, eh? Perhaps that's how he's going to keep her sweet. I mean, come on, there's certainly something interesting going on between those two.

And they do seem to have something in common. Here's Lady Dustin again:

If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats.

Yes, Lady Dustin hates the maesters. But how does Roose feel about them?

  • My old maester insisted it was a sign of sickness, yet the boy was otherwise as strong as a young bull.
  • The maesters will tell you that King Jaehaerys abolished the lord's right to the first night to appease his shrewish queen, but where the old gods rule, old customs linger.
  • A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison.

The word "disdainful" springs to mind. And let's not forget that Roose made fast friends with Qyburn, a defrocked maester whose disdain for his old masters isn't a matter of conjecture.

Of course, Roose also makes use of the maesters as healers, and even Lady Dustin concedes that they do good medical work. But beyond that, perhaps there's a mutual antipathy towards this southron order interfering in the North.

And if Roose does aim to be king, then he'll need a queen - and having the Barrowlands and the Rills onside wouldn't hurt, either.

Edit: I actually quite want this to happen now. All hail King Roose and Queen Barbrey, the rightful rulers of winter!

It's tinfoil time , because somewhere out there is the child of Barbery  and Brandon .

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