Let's speculate wildly about Lady Dustin

[kissdbyfire]

I think she's playing a very long game. 

[acwill07]

As with most things in ASOIAF that folks chalk up to conspiracy theories, the answer to the question of why Ned didn't force Lady Dustin to remarry can be explained pretty easily.

Lord Dustin was one of Eddard's most trusted friends and confidants, which can be safely assumed since Ned chose him as one of his companions to ride with him to the TOJ.  We can also assume that Ned may have known about Brandon's relationship with Lady Dustin in the past.  I believe Ned didn't press the issue because he felt bad that she had lost 2 of the only men that she truly loved in her life and that the loss of one of them was directly his fault.  

In short, he didn't make her remarry as a way of making amends for taking her husband from her.

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Collecting a hush prize doesn't require committing treason in the home of a king known to be insane. Nor does saving face in front of Robert. Brandon was acting on his own there and being a total dumbass. Hot-headed, impulsive, wolf-blooded. 

Well yeah, but that was the only wild speculation I could come up with.  Still haven't figured out how to spin the fostering. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I love an invitation to suppose, Man.  We can do so much better than the truth, right? 

 

Well, if all we're going to do is stick to "the truth", then what the hell are we doing here?

"Hey man, check it out, what do you think happened in [scenario]?"

"I reckon it's exactly what it appears to be."

"Sweet! Awesome conversation."

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Then it was really stupid of him to ad lib going to KL screaming for Rhaegar's head just to cover his tracks.

How certain are we that that actually happened?

[The Commentator]

13 hours ago, acwill07 said:

As with most things in ASOIAF that folks chalk up to conspiracy theories, the answer to the question of why Ned didn't force Lady Dustin to remarry can be explained pretty easily.

Lord Dustin was one of Eddard's most trusted friends and confidants, which can be safely assumed since Ned chose him as one of his companions to ride with him to the TOJ.  We can also assume that Ned may have known about Brandon's relationship with Lady Dustin in the past.  I believe Ned didn't press the issue because he felt bad that she had lost 2 of the only men that she truly loved in her life and that the loss of one of them was directly his fault.  

In short, he didn't make her remarry as a way of making amends for taking her husband from her.

Ned wasn't all that considerate of Lady Dustin.  He brought back Lyanna's bones but couldn't be bothered to do the same for Lord Dustin's remains.  He brought back the red stallion but a horse is very useful on a long journey.  Bones, not so much.  Still, Ned took the effort for his sister but did not for Lord Dustin.  That was taken as an insult by Lady Dustin.  I can see her side.  

[acwill07]

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Ned wasn't all that considerate of Lady Dustin.  He brought back Lyanna's bones but couldn't be bothered to do the same for Lord Dustin's remains.  He brought back the red stallion but a horse is very useful on a long journey.  Bones, not so much.  Still, Ned took the effort for his sister but did not for Lord Dustin.  That was taken as an insult by Lady Dustin.  I can see her side.  

I am not commenting on Lady Dustin here I'm commenting on Ned and his reasoning for not making her remarry.  Her side is irrelevant to my post.

 I can totally see why she may not like Ned or the Starks at this point......although I'd argue that Ned wasn't going to have time to have five other people's bones cleaned and brought back with him to the North,  not when the war just got over and he'd already been gone for so long.  Not to mention he now has a baby to take care of and time is of the essence.  Now obviously Lady Dustin doesn't know about that last part or at least not all of it, but still.  Ned didn't do anything wrong.

[Good Guy Garlan]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think she's playing a very long game. 

Doran Martell: "Amateur"

[Luddagain]

I am sure that i posted this recently somewhere but cannot see it.

It may have got lost but here it is again.

 

The following seem to me to be crucial issues to consider re Lady Dustin

1. She seemed to Love Brandon and slept with him

2. She may well have a bastard Snow somewhere -

3. Her sister marrieds Roose Bolton. Her son was Domerik

4. Domerik Bolton is or was the right age to be her son or Brandon could also have slept with Bethany - were the sisters twins- the names are suggestive of twins.

5. She was lying to Theon re Ned (or GRRM made an error) - she claims to have wanted Ned after she lost to Catelyn BUT she also says she was married 6 months to Lord Dustin when Ned called his banners. There was not sufficient time between Brandon dying and Ned calling his banners for both of those to be true. - or perhaps there is more to the tale.

6. She has a laugh like Ramsay - she could be his mother -

7. She could also be the mother of the sad boy Reek who smelled always of fish (this is a real condition if rare)

8. She claimed to hate Ned (but this may be lies to get back to Ramsay)

9. She is the lady of the Barrowlands, where lies the Barrow King.  Her sigil has a crown. Surely she must harbour desires to be Queen of the North.

10 She is born a Ryswell  and is Rickard's girl - could she also be a wild horsewoman - like Lyanna

11. She gave her hubby a red stallion

12. She always wears black and remains celibate. This is like the NW AND like Brynden Tully. Is she is fact a secret member of the NW - as is Brynden perhaps

13. From Ned's memories I am not so sure he liked her husband - he just recalls the stallion

14. She has a rather unnatural interest in the Winterfell crypts

15. She hates maesters - suggesting she leans heavily toward magic and the old gods

16. She is one potential candidate for Jon's mother - by Brandon assuming that Jon is the same age as Robb or a fraction older or by Ned. I do not think it likely however, but it cannot be ruled out.

[Luddagain]

One other thing to note re Lady Dustin - her name and that of her sister -  they are the same as the two rivals Bethany and Barbary mothers of Bloodraven and Bittersteel.

 

Also her name Barbary seems very like that of the Babd ie the war goddess associates with CROWS and also with horses.

[Lost Melnibonean]

31 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

5. She was lying to Theon re Ned (or GRRM made an error) - she claims to have wanted Ned after she lost to Catelyn BUT she also says she was married 6 months to Lord Dustin when Ned called his banners. There was not sufficient time between Brandon dying and Ned calling his banners for both of those to be true. - or perhaps there is more to the tale.

I don't see the conflict. She lost Brandon when Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn, not when Brandon was killed. I would assume more than six months passed from Brandon's betrothal and Eddard calling his banners, which would allow sufficient time for Lord Ryswell to wed Barbrey to Lord Dustin. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Well, if all we're going to do is stick to "the truth", then what the hell are we doing here?

"Hey man, check it out, what do you think happened in [scenario]?"

"I reckon it's exactly what it appears to be."

"Sweet! Awesome conversation."

How certain are we that that actually happened?

Fairly certain. Jaime remembers it pretty clearly. It fits with what we know of Brandon's temperament. Ned flat out said the wolf's blood led his brother (and sister) to an early grave. And even Aerys wouldn't have thought up what he did based on Brandon just yelling "Where's my sister?" One could even forgive Aerys for thinking Ned might be something like Brandon and pose a threat to the realm, or at least to Rhaegar.

 

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't see the conflict. She lost Brandon when Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn, not when Brandon was killed. I would assume more than six months passed from Brandon's betrothal and Eddard calling his banners, which would allow sufficient time for Lord Ryswell to wed Barbrey to Lord Dustin. 

Considering that the betrothal was done when Catelyn was 12 years old, I'd say a lot more than six months passed between those two things.

[Therae]

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She lost Brandon when Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn, not when Brandon was killed. I would assume more than six months passed from Brandon's betrothal and Eddard calling his banners, which would allow sufficient time for Lord Ryswell to wed Barbrey to Lord Dustin. 

I think Brandon's death is meant to be the earliest point at which Cat could be said to have gotten Ned, too? Lady Dustin sounds like she's saying she didn't marry Willem until Ned was a lost cause.

Quote

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."

DWD, Turncloak

It does seem like six months from Ned's wedding to calling the banners is a stretch, but maybe six months from Ned's intention to marry Cat being generally known to the banners actually getting their men together and setting off for war...? (I don't know, it still seems like a pretty long time.)

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, Therae said:

Lady Dustin sounds like she's saying she didn't marry Willem until Ned was a lost cause.

Not necessarily. She says her father hoped for Eddard, and the Catelyn landed him, not her father hoped for Eddard until Catelyn landed him. 

[Therae]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Not necessarily. She says her father hoped for Eddard, and the Catelyn landed him, not her father hoped for Eddard until Catelyn landed him. 

Totally fair point.

[Seams]

Wow, @Luddagain. Very interesting insights.

In a lot of the Ramsay Snow / Reek imagery, there does seem to be something fishy about his paternity - but you may be right to question the maternity as well. In the puns thread, we have discussed a few clues that may help to uncover the mystery. Aside from the shared surname, Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow have a flower / flour connection: Ramsay's mother is a miller's wife and Jon Snow emerges from the Winterfell crypt covered with flour as he and Robb pull a prank on the younger Stark kids. Lyanna Stark, who is thought to be Jon's mother, is associated with winter roses. One of Ramsay's most notable features is his lips - two lips? Tulips? That may be a stretch, but there are other possible wordplay hints.

Theon / Reek says that Ramsay does not look like Roose except for his eyes. What if Rickard Stark (or his father) still observed first night rights when Roose Bolton was conceived? That could explain why Roose has "eyes like ice." There is a pun on ice / eyes and, obviously, the sword Ice. And the only clue that Ramsay is Roose's son is that his eyes are like Roose's. What if Ramsay's eyes also came from a Stark father, namely Brandon? Only the claim of the miller's wife and the eyes speak to the paternity of Roose, and both could be deceptive.

The Lord of the Dreadfort did not have a strong likeness to his bastard son. His face was clean-shaved, smooth-skinned, ordinary, not handsome but not quite plain. Though Roose had been in battles, he bore no scars. Though well past forty, he was as yet unwrinkled, with scarce a line to tell of the passage of time. His lips were so thin that when he pressed them together they seemed to vanish altogether. There was an agelessness about him, a stillness; on Roose Bolton's face, rage and joy looked much the same. All he and Ramsay had in common were their eyes. His eyes are ice. Reek wondered if Roose Bolton ever cried. If so, do the tears feel cold upon his cheeks?

(ADwD, Reek II)

Or here is another possible twist: there is wordplay around plum / lump, with the lump representing a pregnancy. (This comes form the Varamyr Sixskins prologue, but it also relates to pies.) Roose describes the miller's wife as having two plums. (Granted, he is describing her before she is pregnant, but this could be foreshadowing.) Two plums might represent twins. Or, because the reference is to breasts, could be a hint about milk brothers. I think we are going to learn more about the bond between milk brothers.

The old miller had gotten himself a new young wife, a girl not half his age. She was a tall, willowy creature, very healthy-looking. Long legs and small firm breasts, like two ripe plums.

(ADwD, Reek III)

Maybe the original Reek was the second plum / lump or milk brother. If not through literal events, maybe it was a literary kinship between Ramsay and the original Reek. I really like your notion that the original Reek might have been Lady Dustin's secret love child, although the fish aroma makes me wonder about a possible Tully connection. The fact of the strong odor itself makes me think of Tywin Lannister's sickeningly rotting corpse. Bolton's smallfolk says the smell is a sign that the soul is rotting; there are a number of comments throughout the books that lies have an unpleasant smell. So there's something going on with deception and false identity here, but I don't know what it is.

"Why? The way you smell is my son's doing, not your own. I am well aware of that." They rode past a stable and a shuttered inn with a wheat sheaf painted on its sign. Reek heard music coming through its windows. "I knew the first Reek. He stank, though not for want of washing. I have never known a cleaner creature, truth be told. He bathed thrice a day and wore flowers in his hair as if he were a maiden. Once, when my second wife was still alive, he was caught stealing scent from her bedchamber. I had him whipped for that, a dozen lashes. Even his blood smelled wrong. The next year he tried it again. This time he drank the perfume and almost died of it. It made no matter. The smell was something he was born with. A curse, the smallfolk said. The gods had made him stink so that men would know his soul was rotting. My old maester insisted it was a sign of sickness, yet the boy was otherwise as strong as a young bull. No one could stand to be near him, so he slept with the pigs … until the day that Ramsay's mother appeared at my gates to demand that I provide a servant for my bastard, who was growing up wild and unruly. I gave her Reek. It was meant to be amusing, but he and Ramsay became inseparable. I do wonder, though … was it Ramsay who corrupted Reek, or Reek Ramsay?" His lordship glanced at the new Reek with eyes as pale and strange as two white moons. "What was he whispering whilst he unchained you?"

(ADwD, Reek III)

I really like your comparison of Lady Dustin to Lyanna, and the parallels with the Bethany / Barbary parallel. This raises so many possibilities!

[Luddagain]

Not really so.

Until Ned was engaged or married, presumably he was a very real possibility for Barbary.   Since ned did NOT become engaged to Catelyn  after Brandon's death, it really is a stretch. 6 months did not pass between Brandon's death and Ned becoming engaged to Catelyn mind you there could well be a back story  ie Rickard Stark making Barbary Dustin's father aware that Ned's heart was otherwisew ie Rickard aware of Ned's wish to marry Ashara.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, Luddagain said:

One other thing to note re Lady Dustin - her name and that of her sister -  they are the same as the two rivals Bethany and Barbary mothers of Bloodraven and Bittersteel.

 

Also her name Barbary seems very like that of the Babd ie the war goddess associates with CROWS and also with horses.

You're a little mixed up here.

Bittersteel's mother was Barba Bracken. Bloodraven's was Melissa Blackwood.  

Bethany Bracken replaced Melissa and became Aegon IV's seventh mistress. Barba was fifth. Melissa was sixth.

And I don't know why you'd think (as mentioned in your previous post) that two sisters having names that begin with the same letter is indicative of their being twins. A lot of people use the same letter for more than one kid without having any twins.

Her name is Barbrey, not Barbary. Still the horses part works because she was born a Ryswell and their sigil is a horse head.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Luddagain said:

6. She has a laugh like Ramsay - she could be his mother -

Please remind me where her laugh is compared to Ramsay’s. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

7. She could also be the mother of the sad boy Reek who smelled always of fish (this is a real condition if rare)

Why? What suggestion is there in the text that she is the mother of Heke, aka Reek? 

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

12. She always wears black and remains celibate. This is like the NW AND like Brynden Tully. Is she is fact a secret member of the NW - as is Brynden perhaps

For real? 

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

13. From Ned's memories I am not so sure he liked her husband - he just recalls the stallion

Can you please point to anything in the text that suggests Eddard dislike the most recent Lord of Barrow Hall? 

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

15. She hates maesters - suggesting she leans heavily toward magic and the old gods

Does she truly hate maesters? Or does she suspect their motives? 

[acwill07]

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I am sure that i posted this recently somewhere but cannot see it.

It may have got lost but here it is again.

 

The following seem to me to be crucial issues to consider re Lady Dustin

1. She seemed to Love Brandon and slept with him

2. She may well have a bastard Snow somewhere -

3. Her sister marrieds Roose Bolton. Her son was Domerik

4. Domerik Bolton is or was the right age to be her son or Brandon could also have slept with Bethany - were the sisters twins- the names are suggestive of twins.

5. She was lying to Theon re Ned (or GRRM made an error) - she claims to have wanted Ned after she lost to Catelyn BUT she also says she was married 6 months to Lord Dustin when Ned called his banners. There was not sufficient time between Brandon dying and Ned calling his banners for both of those to be true. - or perhaps there is more to the tale.

6. She has a laugh like Ramsay - she could be his mother -

7. She could also be the mother of the sad boy Reek who smelled always of fish (this is a real condition if rare)

8. She claimed to hate Ned (but this may be lies to get back to Ramsay)

9. She is the lady of the Barrowlands, where lies the Barrow King.  Her sigil has a crown. Surely she must harbour desires to be Queen of the North.

10 She is born a Ryswell  and is Rickard's girl - could she also be a wild horsewoman - like Lyanna

11. She gave her hubby a red stallion

12. She always wears black and remains celibate. This is like the NW AND like Brynden Tully. Is she is fact a secret member of the NW - as is Brynden perhaps

13. From Ned's memories I am not so sure he liked her husband - he just recalls the stallion

14. She has a rather unnatural interest in the Winterfell crypts

15. She hates maesters - suggesting she leans heavily toward magic and the old gods

16. She is one potential candidate for Jon's mother - by Brandon assuming that Jon is the same age as Robb or a fraction older or by Ned. I do not think it likely however, but it cannot be ruled out.

As for #13, Ned clearly says that his "friends" rode with him to the TOJ.  He clearly liked her husband.