Tianzi

What 'needed to be done'?

161 posts in this topic

In this thread I want to discuss which actions committed by various characters - mostly evil or at least questionable - really needed to be done.

By that I mean:

  • 'needed to be done' from the character's point of view, their cause and situation; no 'it was so inhuman s/he'd better died!' thinking,
  • were really committed because the situation was calling for it, NOT because the character was an asshole (s/he could be one otherwise, tho),
  • still needed to be done, ie. the cause was (in our subjective opinion) big enough; for example I'd classify Tyrion ordering the murder of that what's-his-face singer so he could keep his fav whore close, as not good enough.

 

Tywin - surprisingly, I have a problem, I view most of his actions as very extreme. I guess annihilating the Tarbecks and the Reynes to the last one, since he'd decided to destroy those houses.

Tyrion - sacrificing ships during the Battle of Blackwater to lure the enemy into a trap. And the very fact of siding with the incest born, psychopathic king and fighting a war for the wrong cause.

Jaime - murder of Aerys, attempted murder of Bran, blacmailing Edmure.

Cersei - offing Robert Baratheon, imprisoning Ned Stark.

Daenerys - ordering to close the gates of... whichever Essos city it was, during the plague.

Arya - several kills in situations essential to her escape.

Sansa - sticking with Littlefinger's 'Marillion killed Lysa' story.

Olenna - killing Joffrey and making Tyrion the scapegoat.

Rhaegar - POSSIBLY that whole Lyanna's abduction circus, if he had basis to think it's essential to saving the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone is the hero of their own story, so all their actions are justified in their own minds.

Tywin had no choice by the drown the Reynes, since they could have holed up in their mines for an eternity. And the Tarbecks was more of an accident when a boulder hit their tower and brought the whole thing down on their heads.

Tyrion's strategy at the BW was brilliant, and since he is a Lannister, he was fighting for the right cause.

Jaime either had to kill Aerys or risk dying with the rest of the entire city. Bran was a conundrum, since letting him go would probably have jeopardized the lives of his own children. Edmure was necessary to take the castle without shedding blood and breaking his vow to Cat.

Cersei did everything to hold power and protect her children.

Keeping the infected out of Meereen was necessary to prevent the plague from entering the city, although it isn't likely to work.

Arya just wants to survive and reunite with her family.

Sansa just wants to survive.

Olenna didn't mean to kill Joffrey. Her real target was Tyrion, which was why the poison was in his pie.

Rhaegar is an enigma. Hard to say what he was thinking, and it is possible that he was kidnapped along with Lyanna.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Rhaegar is an enigma. Hard to say what he was thinking, and it is possible that he was kidnapped along with Lyanna.

Huh?  Not trying to be disrespectful or anything but what are you talking about?  First time I've seen this thrown out there.  Kidnapped by who?  I'm intrigued. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

In this thread I want to discuss which actions committed by various characters - mostly evil or at least questionable - really needed to be done.

By that I mean:

  • 'needed to be done' from the character's point of view, their cause and situation; no 'it was so inhuman s/he'd better died!' thinking,
  • were really committed because the situation was calling for it, NOT because the character was an asshole (s/he could be one otherwise, tho),
  • still needed to be done, ie. the cause was (in our subjective opinion) big enough; for example I'd classify Tyrion ordering the murder of that what's-his-face singer so he could keep his fav whore close, as not good enough.

 

Tywin - surprisingly, I have a problem, I view most of his actions as very extreme. I guess annihilating the Tarbecks and the Reynes to the last one, since he'd decided to destroy those houses.

Tyrion - sacrificing ships during the Battle of Blackwater to lure the enemy into a trap. And the very fact of siding with the incest born, psychopathic king and fighting a war for the wrong cause.

Jaime - murder of Aerys, attempted murder of Bran, blacmailing Edmure.

Cersei - offing Robert Baratheon, imprisoning Ned Stark.

Daenerys - ordering to close the gates of... whichever Essos city it was, during the plague.

Arya - several kills in situations essential to her escape.

Sansa - sticking with Littlefinger's 'Marillion killed Lysa' story.

Olenna - killing Joffrey and making Tyrion the scapegoat.

Rhaegar - POSSIBLY that whole Lyanna's abduction circus, if he had basis to think it's essential to saving the world.

You forgot to include the assassination of lord commander Jon Snow.  It was mutiny but it needed to be done.  Jon was willing to destroy the night's watch to save his sister. Jon already started a feud with the Boltons for the sake of his sister.  Bowen Marsh had no other choice but stop his foolish commander.  Jon had to be killed to prevent him doing more harm to Westeros.

Edited by Allardyce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

<snip

Tywin - surprisingly, I have a problem, I view most of his actions as very extreme. I guess annihilating the Tarbecks and the Reynes to the last one, since he'd decided to destroy those houses.

Tyrion - sacrificing ships during the Battle of Blackwater to lure the enemy into a trap. And the very fact of siding with the incest born, psychopathic king and fighting a war for the wrong cause.

Jaime - murder of Aerys, attempted murder of Bran, blacmailing Edmure.

Cersei - offing Robert Baratheon, imprisoning Ned Stark.

Daenerys - ordering to close the gates of... whichever Essos city it was, during the plague.

Arya - several kills in situations essential to her escape.

Sansa - sticking with Littlefinger's 'Marillion killed Lysa' story.

Olenna - killing Joffrey and making Tyrion the scapegoat.

Rhaegar - POSSIBLY that whole Lyanna's abduction circus, if he had basis to think it's essential to saving the world.

Tywin does tend to do things that are more than what is needed. He didn't have to exterminate two houses for being arrogant social-climbing, power hungry jerks. He didn't have to order the death of Rhaenys (it's arguable that Aegon had to die).

Tyrion's sacrifice of some ships is justifiable in a utilitarian sense. Fighting for his family gets him a pass in my book because it's not like he had the option of going over to Stannis' side, or staying neutral. He's not equipped to live the life of a wanderer, so he did what he had to at the time.

Jaime's killing Aerys was justifiable in defense of others. Throwing Bran out the window was not. Blackmailing Edmure? I don't remember blackmail.

Cersei didn't really off Robert. The strongwine didn't help but she did not arrange for that boar to be present. Robert could easily have been killed by a boar at his usual level of drunkenness. She lucked out on that one. Imprisoning Ned wouldn't seem so bad if it weren't for Joffrey changing the script and having him executed. At the moment she chose to have Ned arrested, she didn't really have the option of coming clean. She had to either take a firm stand against him and deny everything, or risk people catching on to the truth. So for her, it was a necessary thing. 

Arya's killings are necessary. She doesn't kill for fun. She's doing what she has to do to survive, and she's a traumatized child.

Sansa doesn't have much choice but stick with Littlefinger's story. He's made her entirely dependent on him for protection. She's a victim in this.

Olenna is tough. Killing Joffrey is wrong but it's so understandable. So while I'm fine with him being dead I have to say no, she did not need to do that. I don't think she expected Tyrion to get blamed though.

Since we don't know what all happened with Rhaegar, and certainly don't know his thoughts or whether he even abducted the girl, we can't render a fair verdict on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

You forgot to include the assassination of lord commander Jon Snow.  It was mutiny but it needed to be done.  Jon was willing to destroy the night's watch to save his sister. Jon already started a feud with the Boltons for the sake of his sister.  Bowen Marsh had no other choice but stop his foolish commander.  Jon had to be killed to prevent him doing more harm to Westeros.

That's a matter of opinion. Jon was not destroying the Night's Watch to save his sister. He couldn't meet Ramsay's terms, and if he didn't Ramsay promised (assuming Ramsay even wrote the letter) to come to him. The Bolton forces would have marched on Castle Black in all their strength and killed everyone, taking out one-third of the Watch and leaving the world far more vulnerable to the Others. Jon's decision to take a personal issue Ramsay had against him and change the field of battle to a place where the men of Castle Black wouldn't be harmed was a choice to SAVE the Watch. And he didn't ask anyone to go with him either. 

Ramsay was the one who issued the challenge. Jon was going to do what was necessary to save both the Watch and the world. 

Bowen Marsh was more concerned about the politics of Westeros than the real threat coming down from the North. Seems he forgot that the Watch is not supposed to take part in those squabbles. And don't bother saying Jon was taking part, he wasn't--he allowed Mel to send Mance, that's not the same as actively getting in the middle of things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Each and every one of Tywin's "extreme" actions are the direct result of the embarrassment that was his father...

House Lannister would NEVER be laughed at under Tywins rule, they were to be feared.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, DigUpHerBones said:

Each and every one of Tywin's "extreme" actions are the direct result of the embarrassment that was his father...

House Lannister would NEVER be laughed at under Tywins rule, they were to be feared.

<snip

Yes, but he could have accomplished that without going as far as he did.

Ordering the deaths of Rhaegar's children had nothing to do with his father. That was because he sat on his butt so long during the Rebellion that he had to do something big to get in with Robert and get his daughter to be queen. It was calculated and cold, and not remotely an emotional response to insults from the past. No one was laughing at him or his house during the rebellion, and Rhaegar never disrespected him so far as we know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's a matter of opinion. Jon was not destroying the Night's Watch to save his sister. He couldn't meet Ramsay's terms, and if he didn't Ramsay promised (assuming Ramsay even wrote the letter) to come to him. The Bolton forces would have marched on Castle Black in all their strength and killed everyone, taking out one-third of the Watch and leaving the world far more vulnerable to the Others. Jon's decision to take a personal issue Ramsay had against him and change the field of battle to a place where the men of Castle Black wouldn't be harmed was a choice to SAVE the Watch. And he didn't ask anyone to go with him either. 

Ramsay was the one who issued the challenge. Jon was going to do what was necessary to save both the Watch and the world. 

Bowen Marsh was more concerned about the politics of Westeros than the real threat coming down from the North. Seems he forgot that the Watch is not supposed to take part in those squabbles. And don't bother saying Jon was taking part, he wasn't--he allowed Mel to send Mance, that's not the same as actively getting in the middle of things.

I have to disagree with you.  Jon was responsible for starting that trouble.  He sent the wildlings to steal Arya away from the Boltons.  That's war.  Look what the Starks did when they thought the son of their king kidnapped Lyanna.  Brandon went to King's Landing and threatened the ruling family.  That trouble with the Boltons is all Jon's fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lord Hightower closing the city gates to contain the Greyplague.  It was heartless but kept the infection from spreading to more people in the Reach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

I have to disagree with you.  Jon was responsible for starting that trouble.  He sent the wildlings to steal Arya away from the Boltons.  That's war.  Look what the Starks did when they thought the son of their king kidnapped Lyanna.  Brandon went to King's Landing and threatened the ruling family.  That trouble with the Boltons is all Jon's fault.

Jon did not send Mance and the wildling spearwives. That was all Mel's idea. He allowed them to go, but since Jon had no authority over Mance or the women, he couldn't have stopped them anyway.

What "the Starks" did over Lyanna? No, that's what Brandon did. A Stark, not "the Starks." Brandon usurped his father's authority and went off on his own like the ass that he was, and screwed everything up. That's not the whole family's fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Jon did not send Mance and the wildling spearwives. That was all Mel's idea. He allowed them to go, but since Jon had no authority over Mance or the women, he couldn't have stopped them anyway.

 

Read those chapters again.  Jon was not a passive participant in that mission.  Jon agreed to the mission and even sent his man to gather the wildling women from Mole's Town.  Jon was an active participant and being the lord commander, he was very much the person to blame for that illegal mission.

"A grey girl on a dying horse.  On the strength of that vision he had set Mance Rayder loose upon the north."

Jon knowingly committed that treason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Read those chapters again.  Jon was not a passive participant in that mission.  Jon agreed to the mission and even sent his man to gather the wildling women from Mole's Town.  Jon was an active participant and being the lord commander, he was very much the person to blame for that illegal mission.

"A grey girl on a dying horse.  On the strength of that vision he had set Mance Rayder loose upon the north."

Jon knowingly committed that treason.

It's not treason either way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

I have to disagree with you.  Jon was responsible for starting that trouble.  He sent the wildlings to steal Arya away from the Boltons.  That's war.  Look what the Starks did when they thought the son of their king kidnapped Lyanna.  Brandon went to King's Landing and threatened the ruling family.  That trouble with the Boltons is all Jon's fault.

What irony. Using an example of the 'stealing' of a Stark woman being treated as a declaration of war by her big brother as evidence to condemn Jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

It's not treason either way.

Yes it was.  Jon himself knew it.  He was trying to skirt around it in his mind but it was treason.  He thought to himself that it was nothing less than treason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Yes it was.  Jon himself knew it.  He was trying to skirt around it in his mind but it was treason.  He thought to himself that it was nothing less than treason.

That still doesn't make Bowen Marsh some kind of hero. His comments throughout carry way to much worry about what the rest of Westeros, and the Iron Throne in particular, think. His loyalty is supposed to be to the Watch, not to the prevailing winds of power. And he just headed up stabbing the one man who knows best the threat that's facing them. 

Ambush and assassination as done by Marsh and company is neither necessary nor honorable. They should have found a way that didn't make them murderers and put the entire world at risk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That still doesn't make Bowen Marsh some kind of hero. His comments throughout carry way to much worry about what the rest of Westeros, and the Iron Throne in particular, think. His loyalty is supposed to be to the Watch, not to the prevailing winds of power. And he just headed up stabbing the one man who knows best the threat that's facing them. 

Ambush and assassination as done by Marsh and company is neither necessary nor honorable. They should have found a way that didn't make them murderers and put the entire world at risk.

Assassination is illegal and punishment will come to Marsh and crew.  Jon's crimes were worse.  He had already put the world at risk when he tried to get Arya out of the Boltons custody.  Starting a war with the ruling house of the north was wrong for Jon to do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Assassination is illegal and punishment will come to Marsh and crew.  Jon's crimes were worse.  He had already put the world at risk when he tried to get Arya out of the Boltons custody.  Starting a war with the ruling house of the north was wrong for Jon to do. 

I disagree about that being the same as starting a war.

Does it strike you as funny that we're debating this when we both know full well it wasn't even Arya, so all the characters involved pretty much look like idiots?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

Does it strike you as funny that we're debating this when we both know full well it wasn't even Arya, so all the characters involved pretty much look like idiots?

I've always said something similar to this. I understand the Jon committed treason discussion but I've always wondered about the people who are really hard on him about it. Does the fact that we as readers know it's not Arya shape their view. I think if it actually was Arya or if we didn't know either way bc we didnt have Arya's pov or everyone who actually sees her pointing out its not her a lot of people (not all) would be more sympathetic about Jon's decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Tianzi said:

In this thread I want to discuss which actions committed by various characters - mostly evil or at least questionable - really needed to be done.

By that I mean:

  • 'needed to be done' from the character's point of view, their cause and situation; no 'it was so inhuman s/he'd better died!' thinking,
  • were really committed because the situation was calling for it, NOT because the character was an asshole (s/he could be one otherwise, tho),
  • still needed to be done, ie. the cause was (in our subjective opinion) big enough; for example I'd classify Tyrion ordering the murder of that what's-his-face singer so he could keep his fav whore close, as not good enough.

 

Tywin - surprisingly, I have a problem, I view most of his actions as very extreme. I guess annihilating the Tarbecks and the Reynes to the last one, since he'd decided to destroy those houses.

Tyrion - sacrificing ships during the Battle of Blackwater to lure the enemy into a trap. And the very fact of siding with the incest born, psychopathic king and fighting a war for the wrong cause.

Jaime - murder of Aerys, attempted murder of Bran, blacmailing Edmure.

Cersei - offing Robert Baratheon, imprisoning Ned Stark.

Daenerys - ordering to close the gates of... whichever Essos city it was, during the plague.

Arya - several kills in situations essential to her escape.

Sansa - sticking with Littlefinger's 'Marillion killed Lysa' story.

Olenna - killing Joffrey and making Tyrion the scapegoat.

Rhaegar - POSSIBLY that whole Lyanna's abduction circus, if he had basis to think it's essential to saving the world.

I think Bloodraven would be a good addition to this list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.