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What 'needed to be done'?

161 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

Really? So this most deadly of poisons sinks to the bottom of the glass, but when the victim tips the glass up to drink it suddenly rises to the top so it can contain itself to literally the last half-swallow? So in essence, it does everything in its power to avoid being consumed, making it imperative that your victim downs his entire drink or your attempt is a bust? Sorry, but no.

 

You're missing something here. Have you ever had hot chocolate or chocolate milk and noticed when you finish drinking it there's a lot of chocolate still left in the bottom? Same thing, only more so because nobody stirred the wine.

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2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Why does everyone think Tywin came up with the Red Wedding? He let the Freys and Roose do what they wanted and promised no retribution for it. He wasn't the mastermind, he just didn't stop them. The RW was not needed. They could have arrested Robb and all of his captains and turned them over to the IT. 

Without him it wouldn't have happened though, that's what I'm saying. 

They would still have to slaughter his army to end the war, and Robb would have to be executed anyway. 

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On 2/24/2017 at 5:49 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's a matter of opinion. Jon was not destroying the Night's Watch to save his sister. He couldn't meet Ramsay's terms, and if he didn't Ramsay promised (assuming Ramsay even wrote the letter) to come to him. The Bolton forces would have marched on Castle Black in all their strength and killed everyone, taking out one-third of the Watch and leaving the world far more vulnerable to the Others. Jon's decision to take a personal issue Ramsay had against him and change the field of battle to a place where the men of Castle Black wouldn't be harmed was a choice to SAVE the Watch. And he didn't ask anyone to go with him either. 

Ramsay was the one who issued the challenge. Jon was going to do what was necessary to save both the Watch and the world. 

Bowen Marsh was more concerned about the politics of Westeros than the real threat coming down from the North. Seems he forgot that the Watch is not supposed to take part in those squabbles. And don't bother saying Jon was taking part, he wasn't--he allowed Mel to send Mance, that's not the same as actively getting in the middle of things.

:agree:

Jon was right to confront the Boltons. He was threatened by Ramsay, and Castle Black cannot be defended from the south.

Jon Snow explained multiple times about the threat from the Others, yet no one believed him.  Bowen Marsh was an idiot and most likely doomed the watch with his treasonous act. Jon is the only person at the wall that sees the big picture......Marsh and Co.,still thinks that the wildlings are the main threat beyond the wall.

IMO, Jon's only mistake was sending away most of his supporters and not keeping his direwolf close. 

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On 2/25/2017 at 0:55 PM, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey drinks multiple chugs of wine so poisoned that it has turned purple, yet he goes on for half a minute or more. He doesn't drop until seconds after he washes the pie down his throat with wine.

At risk of sounding like an idiot, I am really confused. The argument that the wine was not what killed Joffrey is that there was so much poison in the wine that it should have killed him sooner, therefore it was poison in Tyrion's pie (because Tyrion was the target) that killed him?

I can't find any indication that the Strangler does turn wine purple, only that it dissolves in wine and turns the face of its victims purple when they suffocate. There is no explicit evidence that it doesn't turn wine purple, either, but it would go unnoticed in purple wine if it did, and probably wouldn't be particularly noticeable in red wine, either, especially not served in an opaque cup by torchlight.

It turns out purple wine is a thing (Tyrion finds Redwyne's private stock, which is "a purple so dark that it looked almost black" in Illyrio's cellar, Manderly brings red, gold, and purple wines to Winterfell, Tyrion serves purple wine at Yezzan's tent party), so the wine may just have been purple because it was purple and had the same serving size of Strangler in it that Cressen's much smaller cup did, and taken longer to work because it was a lot more diluted.

Littlefinger says that the Tyrells want Joffrey dead because they want Margy to be a queen, but they don't necessarily need Joffrey. I don't see why this wouldn't be accurate. Joffrey may be nice to Margaery (so far), but there's no evidence to suggest that will last long, and he's still a vile, arbitrary, and totally worthless king, and if they want to marry her to Tommen, there needs to be no question that she's still a maid. So Joff has to go before the bedding.

 

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23 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

You're missing something here. Have you ever had hot chocolate or chocolate milk and noticed when you finish drinking it there's a lot of chocolate still left in the bottom? Same thing, only more so because nobody stirred the wine.

This is not chocolate and this is not milk. This is wine and what is supposed to be the most lethal poison known to man. So it is inconceivable that someone would pay a small fortune for a poison that does not instantly dissolve in the delivery medium so as to be undetectable and deadly with only the slightest sip.

Sorry, but the idea that the strangler would sink to the bottom of the glass and stay there despite being shaken and moved around in both instances, but then suddenly decide to float to the top when the victim tips it up to drink, is ludicrous. If this is the case:

-- why would anyone bother to put it in crystal form when it would be much more stealthy and lethal to crush it into a powder? and

-- why would they purposely give Joffrey a honking big chalice that can only serve to prevent him from getting dosed with the poison?

The way you have it, not only does Littlefinger have to know ahead of time that Joffrey and Tyrion will fight, that Tyrion will be made cup-bearer and that Joffrey will place the chalice in the exact spot where Garlan can reach it, but he also has to count on him swilling his wine around for a good couple of minutes and then draining the entire chalice in order to get to the poison that is stuck to the bottom. Come on.

 

19 hours ago, Therae said:

At risk of sounding like an idiot, I am really confused. The argument that the wine was not what killed Joffrey is that there was so much poison in the wine that it should have killed him sooner, therefore it was poison in Tyrion's pie (because Tyrion was the target) that killed him?

I can't find any indication that the Strangler does turn wine purple, only that it dissolves in wine and turns the face of its victims purple when they suffocate. There is no explicit evidence that it doesn't turn wine purple, either, but it would go unnoticed in purple wine if it did, and probably wouldn't be particularly noticeable in red wine, either, especially not served in an opaque cup by torchlight.

It turns out purple wine is a thing (Tyrion finds Redwyne's private stock, which is "a purple so dark that it looked almost black" in Illyrio's cellar, Manderly brings red, gold, and purple wines to Winterfell, Tyrion serves purple wine at Yezzan's tent party), so the wine may just have been purple because it was purple and had the same serving size of Strangler in it that Cressen's much smaller cup did, and taken longer to work because it was a lot more diluted.

Littlefinger says that the Tyrells want Joffrey dead because they want Margy to be a queen, but they don't necessarily need Joffrey. I don't see why this wouldn't be accurate. Joffrey may be nice to Margaery (so far), but there's no evidence to suggest that will last long, and he's still a vile, arbitrary, and totally worthless king, and if they want to marry her to Tommen, there needs to be no question that she's still a maid. So Joff has to go before the bedding.

 

Joffrey's wine runs red on the dais when he drops the chalice, so this is not an Arbor Purple/Black. The last dregs of wine that Tyrion dumps on the floor were "deep purple," so this is unquestionably the strangler. If the poison had been introduced way back at the cutting, and then Tyrion stirred up the wine getting the chalice, and Joffrey stirred it up more by yanking it out of his hands, and then even more by tipping it up and chugging the wine multiple times, then the crystal should have been thoroughly dissolved and completely diffused by this time. Ergo, the entire amount must have been deep purple at this point, unless we can come up with a valid reason as to how, and why, someone would add more poison to the chalice as it lay on the dais.

So if we are to think that Cressen's wine is five to six times more poisoned then Joffrey's, to account for the five- or six-fold increase in the speed at which the poison takes affect, then Cressen's wine should not only be deep purple, but almost black. And even if you don't think he would notice this, it throws the entire rational for the stranger completely out of whack because it would be next to useless as a stealthy assassination tool if just a tiny "flake" is enough to turn a normal amount of red wine black.

And all this ignores the scientific fact that with a contact poison like the strangler, increased dilution would not delay the attack, only lessen it's severity. Think of another poison that works on contact -- ammonia, bleach, poison ivy -- if you drank a straight shot, it would burn you instantly, and probably kill you. If you poured the shot into a large glass of water it would still burn you instantly, but not as badly. If you placed a small drop in a large glass of water, you probably won't feel the burn at all, but then it won't reconcentrate itself in your body after a few seconds and then come back and burn you. It's physiologically impossible.

The Tyrells want Margaery to be queen, yes, but this is not the real prize. That would be a Tyrell sitting on the Iron Throne. With Joffrey, they get that within a year or two; with Tommen, even if an offer is made, they would get a chance to try for another five years at best. In a realm at war and with diseases and other threats to children, this is trading a near-certainty for a huge unknown. If and when Joffrey becomes a threat to Margaery (and there is nothing in the text that even remotely suggests he is hostile to her in any way; in fact, it's the exact opposite) then there are plenty of ways to get rid of him privately, with no witnesses, and made to look like an accident -- and by then the Tyrell link to the Iron Throne is secure and Margaery gets to rule as regent for years to come, just as Cersei is doing now. Joffrey's death was a huge setback for Lady Olenna's Game of Thrones plan.

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59 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

This is not chocolate and this is not milk. This is wine and what is supposed to be the most lethal poison known to man. So it is inconceivable that someone would pay a small fortune for a poison that does not instantly dissolve in the delivery medium so as to be undetectable and deadly with only the slightest sip.

Sorry, but the idea that the strangler would sink to the bottom of the glass and stay there despite being shaken and moved around in both instances, but then suddenly decide to float to the top when the victim tips it up to drink, is ludicrous. If this is the case:

<snip

I didn't say that it would float to the top at any point. I'm not sure how you came up with that. It's best to go with what I say, not what you think I may have meant. I'm always happy to clarify if I've been less than clear.

You are assuming equal density of wine and poison, and that the resulting solution would carry an equal amount of poison throughout the wine. Do you have information from GRRM about the relative densities of the wine in question and the strangler when dissolved?

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Posted (edited)

On 25/02/2017 at 8:26 AM, Jon Snow is a loser said:

Huh? Is there any evidence to support this?

No!

....

@John Suburbs

As I have seen you argue your case for this this theory for several years now, on countless threads, derailing them from the OP,  I would respectfully remind you that this is not a suitable place to once again engage in this argument.

I do appreciate your commitment and passion in regards to your theory, and rest assured that should you turn out to be right, you shall receive all due credit...As there really is nobody else around to receive so. I do recall you once told me, "It's lonely out here in the woods."

Edited by Darkstream

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Baelish betraying Ned. I know everyone thinks that luring him to King's Landing was all part of his master plan but I disagree. Baelish primarily wanted to keep Stannis off the throne. He explains as much to Ned. At best he gets back to the Fingers, at worse Stannis executes him for his corruption at course. Simple preservation.

Not to mention everyone else had already betrayed Ned at this point: Sansa, Renly, Ned himself by going to Cersei. Baelish simply jumped off a drowning ship.

Not saying it was a good thing but simply self preservation.

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20 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I didn't say that it would float to the top at any point. I'm not sure how you came up with that. It's best to go with what I say, not what you think I may have meant. I'm always happy to clarify if I've been less than clear.

You are assuming equal density of wine and poison, and that the resulting solution would carry an equal amount of poison throughout the wine. Do you have information from GRRM about the relative densities of the wine in question and the strangler when dissolved?

From your post above, I get the impression that you think the reason Melisandre is unaffected by the poison while Cressen dies is that the poison had collected at the bottom of the glass, so that the final half swallow contained all of the poison in a super-concentrated form. The only way for this to happen is that after it has sunk to the bottom, it would then have to float to the top when Mel "drank long a deep."

I'm not assuming anything about the density of wine and poison. That's what the wine theory requires. All I'm doing is pointing out the inconsistency that has Joffrey's wine a "deep purple" and yet Cressen's wine, which is supposed to be five or six times more potent, doesn't appear unusual in any way even though Cressen is looking directly at it in a small cup in a brightly lit room..

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19 hours ago, Darkstream said:

No!

....

@John Suburbs

As I have seen you argue your case for this this theory for several years now, on countless threads, derailing them from the OP,  I would respectfully remind you that this is not a suitable place to once again engage in this argument.

I do appreciate your commitment and passion in regards to your theory, and rest assured that should you turn out to be right, you shall receive all due credit...As there really is nobody else around to receive so. I do recall you once told me, "It's lonely out here in the woods."

The OP asked a question: Did Olenna's killing of Joffrey need to be done?

I answered: No, which is why she wasn't trying to kill him.

If other people ask for clarification on my comments, I give them. If you don't want to participate, that's your choice.

People are also discussing Jon's action at Castle Black, and we are all being very civil here.

 

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@John Suburbs

Explain this for everyone please. How is the wine purple before Joff takes a bite of the supposedly poisoned pie?

Quote

The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us.”

“My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. “Dry, though. Needs washing down.” Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. “I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want …” His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

Do you still hold to this explanation you gave last time? 

Quote

The wine appears purple on Joff's chin because it is a thin rivulet of red wine running down his pale white skin.

 

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On 28/2/2017 at 0:49 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Tbf, if it was suggested that at some future date a pregnant teenage girl might be a threat to me, my first reaction wouldn't be to hire people to kill her. Call me old fashioned, but I consider poisoning a pregnant teen mum a tad ungentlemanly. 

When your most dangerous enemy conspire to attack your realm with hordes of barbarians you can do what you what, that doesn’t make you right though.

As for the age Dany didn’t seemed to have a problem to mass murdering, or even committing genocide, children younger than she was during AGOT.

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27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The OP asked a question: Did Olenna's killing of Joffrey need to be done?

I answered: No, which is why she wasn't trying to kill him.

Well no, you are not discussing whether the murder of Joffrey needed to be done, you are debating by  whom and how he was murdered.

Quote

If other people ask for clarification on my comments, I give them. If you don't want to participate, that's your choice.

You see that is the issue though. I have seen your argument ad nauseam, and have chosen to no longer participate in those discussions. That is why I don't click on any threads pertaining to said topic. I find it very tiresome when I have to wade through the same old argument over and over again while trying to read through the comments in a thread that I am interested in.

I civilly ask you to please move this discussion to a more suitable thread.

 

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Posted (edited)

On 2/24/2017 at 9:26 PM, John Suburbs said:

Everyone is the hero of their own story, so all their actions are justified in their own minds.

Tywin had no choice by the drown the Reynes, since they could have holed up in their mines for an eternity. And the Tarbecks was more of an accident when a boulder hit their tower and brought the whole thing down on their heads.

Tyrion's strategy at the BW was brilliant, and since he is a Lannister, he was fighting for the right cause.

Jaime either had to kill Aerys or risk dying with the rest of the entire city. Bran was a conundrum, since letting him go would probably have jeopardized the lives of his own children. Edmure was necessary to take the castle without shedding blood and breaking his vow to Cat.

Cersei did everything to hold power and protect her children.

Keeping the infected out of Meereen was necessary to prevent the plague from entering the city, although it isn't likely to work.

Arya just wants to survive and reunite with her family.

Sansa just wants to survive.

Olenna didn't mean to kill Joffrey. Her real target was Tyrion, which was why the poison was in his pie.

Rhaegar is an enigma. Hard to say what he was thinking, and it is possible that he was kidnapped along with Lyanna.

 

So far I agree with it all but the part when Olenna tries to kill Tyrion. That was LF's plan for sure and Olenna might have been in cahoots with him but Olenna earns nothing from Tyrion's death other that yes, taking the attention away from herself and her family but a trial against Tyrion would serve better.  Good post though!

If I were Olenna, LF would go next for the simple fact that he has something on her now that can get her hanged lol okay him as well (potentially hanged) but Baelish is good at getting out of these situations... If I ever consorted with the man to kill another, I would never let him live but hey that is medieval fantasy me lol

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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30 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@John Suburbs

Explain this for everyone please. How is the wine purple before Joff takes a bite of the supposedly poisoned pie?

Do you still hold to this explanation you gave last time? 

 

Yes

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13 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Well no, you are not discussing whether the murder of Joffrey needed to be done, you are debating by  whom and how he was murdered.

You see that is the issue though. I have seen your argument ad nauseam, and have chosen to no longer participate in those discussions. That is why I don't click on any threads pertaining to said topic. I find it very tiresome when I have to wade through the same old argument over and over again while trying to read through the comments in a thread that I am interested in.

I civilly ask you to please move this discussion to a more suitable thread.

 

Feel free to engage in any discussion you choose, and avoid the ones you don't.

People ask questions and I answer them.

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Posted (edited)

On 2/24/2017 at 11:02 PM, Allardyce said:

You forgot to include the assassination of lord commander Jon Snow.  It was mutiny but it needed to be done.  Jon was willing to destroy the night's watch to save his sister. Jon already started a feud with the Boltons for the sake of his sister.  Bowen Marsh had no other choice but stop his foolish commander.  Jon had to be killed to prevent him doing more harm to Westeros.

That is what is beautiful about this story; no one is absolutely right or absolutely evil (mayhaps Ramsay and Joffrey) who I believe mentally unstable, Euron for sure (to me, a combination of mental instability and huge ability lol) the others are all grey.  Jon fought against what in our world could be seen as xenophobia with people very stuck in their ways but yes I can see why they killed him... because "in their minds" it was totally necessary.  Same goes for Dany with the Masters, Tyrion in the Blackwater etc...George is brilliant at making us love a character and then showing them doing "bad deeds."  Although in our world killing is not the norm, I guess we have all done something, out of self-preservation mayhaps that we are not awfully proud of...

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Posted (edited)

On 3/2/2017 at 1:23 AM, The Pimp that was Promised said:

:agree:

Jon was right to confront the Boltons. He was threatened by Ramsay, and Castle Black cannot be defended from the south.

Jon Snow explained multiple times about the threat from the Others, yet no one believed him.  Bowen Marsh was an idiot and most likely doomed the watch with his treasonous act. Jon is the only person at the wall that sees the big picture......Marsh and Co.,still thinks that the wildlings are the main threat beyond the wall.

IMO, Jon's only mistake was sending away most of his supporters and not keeping his direwolf close. 

Trouble is when someone believes what you say is  "superstition" one cannot hope for anything else...Jon was right, of course, but we have the books... Bowen Marsh and even ser Alistair did not... they acted as their education and tradition would dictate...  Granted that given that Mormont almost got killed by an Other and Jon got his hand burnt they should have known better but it was a hard to believe thing in the first place...

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Posted (edited)

49 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Feel free to engage in any discussion you choose, and avoid the ones you don't.

People ask questions and I answer them.

I am attempting to do just so. Unfortunately, your uncivil insistence on ignoring forum guidelines and rules are preventing me from doing so.

The civil thing to do when asked off-topic questions would be to direct, or provide a link to the appropriate thread.

...

The irony is not lost on me, that I am doing the very thing I am complaining about by engaging in this childish argument. I do apologize to anyone that might be getting annoyed by this.

Edited by Darkstream

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

From your post above, I get the impression that you think the reason Melisandre is unaffected by the poison while Cressen dies is that the poison had collected at the bottom of the glass, so that the final half swallow contained all of the poison in a super-concentrated form. The only way for this to happen is that after it has sunk to the bottom, it would then have to float to the top when Mel "drank long a deep."

I'm not assuming anything about the density of wine and poison. That's what the wine theory requires. All I'm doing is pointing out the inconsistency that has Joffrey's wine a "deep purple" and yet Cressen's wine, which is supposed to be five or six times more potent, doesn't appear unusual in any way even though Cressen is looking directly at it in a small cup in a brightly lit room..

See this is what I mean about going with what you think I meant rather than what I said. Don't assume. Just read. For the record I think Mel is unaffected because she's got some magic thing and being already previously dead going on.

I think Cressen dies so suddenly because he's getting a very concentrated dose because most of the poison is sitting in the bottom of the glass, not all of it.

I'm betting the poison does not automatically and magically evenly distribute itself throughout the wine and attach itself to every molecule/drop. I think a thorough stirring would probably mix it better with the wine, which would be best for assassination attempts because it would affect the system a little at a time unless somebody was greedy and chugged the whole thing at once...Robert for example would probably do that.

I think Joffrey has to drink more of the wine to get the same effect because of this. 

To discredit the "wine theory" rather requires arguing that the poison should be equally distributed when there's no reason to think that.

Now if you'd just mentioned that before it would have made a difference. May I point out that we don't know that both were the same kinds of wine? Joffrey's wine may have been made with the skins of the grapes steeping in it for longer and thus be a darker color already.

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