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What 'needed to be done'?

161 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Her reason to marry Drogo was to go home. Well her home was Essos but that wasn't what she meant was it? Her motive was from the beginning to go to Westeros, well only a dump one would think that this doesn't mean war.

Again, no! She didn't want to marry Drogo. You cannot have a motive for wanting do so something if you don't want to do it in the first place.

And yes, later on, she wanted to go home to Westeros. At the time we are talking about, she would have been just as happy to go to where she considered to be home, the mance with the Red door that she remembered as a child.

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According to who? 

Well me for one, and I would assume, anyone that has read the books.

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The point is that someone cannot blame Robert for sending an assassin after she had already actively started to conspire against him because of how young she was when she had no problem to order genocide, mass murder of children younger than she was during AGOT.

 

Like I said, that is subjective. And it was not my intent to address whether or not it was right or wrong. You stated a motive for Dany marrying Drogo, that is simply not true, and just a product of your biased hatred towards Dany.

Edited by Darkstream

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2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Well me for one, and I would assume, anyone that has read the books.

Anyone? So you think that you and only you know what millions other readers think? You are hilarious!

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Again, no! She didn't want to marry Drogo. You cannot have a motive for wanting do so something if you don't want to do it in the first place.

She did it tho. The did it and she was ok with it knowing what was behind it.

5 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Like I said, that is subjective. 

You don't act like that.

The fact is that Dany knew what was going on and was ok with that, she may not liked it from the beginning but she stated to like it soon enough. It's like bullies, they don't like to fight but once they have others fight for them they love it.

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tyrion had to side with his family so you can't blame him for that. The sacrificing shipps is a greyzone because it was a tactical reason not one he enjoyed or did for any other reason.

 

Cersei-She didn't technically kill robert and that wasn't even in her top ten horrible things. She is the third most evil character in the show. BEhind ramsey and joffrey.

 

Daenerys-She had to close the gates but she did to things that were cruel in other situations.

 

Sansa-Sticking with littlefinger was neccesary for her and her aunt was gonna kill her.

Jaime-Killing aery's wasn't a bad thing. He has done alot worse. Although in later books he seems to seek redemption to a degree.

Tywin-He orders the killings of children and essentially told the mountain and his men to rape and pillage as much as possible. He is evil

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2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Anyone? So you think that you and only you know what millions other readers think? You are hilarious!

No,. I don't think that. I said I would assume.

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

She did it tho. The did it and she was ok with it knowing what was behind it.

No, she wasn't ok with it, she had no choice in the matter.

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You don't act like that.

The fact is that Dany knew what was going on and was ok with that, she may not liked it from the beginning but she stated to like it soon enough. It's like bullies, they don't like to fight but once they have others fight for them they love it.

Again, you are missing the point. Yes, her stance changed after the fact. That still doesn't change the fact that what you posit as her motives for marrying Drogo is factually incorrect.

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1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

No,. I don't think that. I said I would assume.

That is even worse.

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

No, she wasn't ok with it, she had no choice in the matter.

She could say no. No?

2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Again, you are missing the point. Yes, her stance changed after the fact. That still doesn't change the fact that what you posit as her motives for marrying Drogo is factually incorrect.

She knew what was going on so the motive was clear and since she said yes and no "no" she was ok with it.

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That is even worse.

Sure, please explain how so.

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She could say no. No?

No, she could not have said no.

Quote

She knew what was going on so the motive was clear and since she said yes and no "no" she was ok with it.

Being knowledgeable of what you are being forced into, does not substantiate a motive for what you are doing.

Let me ask you, what was Sansa's motives for marrying Tyrion?  Damn, if only she was smart enough to say no, what was she thinking?

Edited by Darkstream

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1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

No, she could not have said no.

Was she a hostage like Sansa or Jeyne?

4 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Let me ask you, what was Sansa's motives for marrying Tyrion?

Sansa was a hostage.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Was she a hostage like Sansa or Jeyne?

Essentially, yes.

Edited by Darkstream

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2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Essentially, yes.

Really? Who was her captor?

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Posted (edited)

On 11/03/2017 at 2:45 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Really? Who was her captor?

Viserys. What do you think would have happened if she refused Viserys, and "woke the dragon."

As the head of the house (Viserys), Dany was essentially his property, to do with her as he pleased. Just as all cases in this setting, Dany had no choice. 

Edited by Darkstream

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Just now, Darkstream said:

Viserys. What do you think would have happened if she refused Viserys, and "woke the dragon."

I knew that you were joking but I had to try. Thank you!

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2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I knew that you were joking but I had to try. Thank you!

And I knew that it was pointless to attempt to engage in a logical, unbiased discussion with you on this matter. My bad.

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1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

And I knew that it was pointless to attempt to engage in a logical, unbiased discussion with you on this matter. My bad.

Also maybe you should stop assuming that your opinion is what millions other readers think.

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Also maybe you should stop assuming that your opinion is what millions other readers think.

 

No, I think that I have every right to assume whatever I like, especially when basic logic and common sense supports my assumption.

At least I qualify my opinion as an assumption, as opposed to you putting forth your biased opinions as fact.

Edited by Darkstream

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

No, I think that I have every right to assume whatever I like, especially when basic logic and common sense supports my assumption.

Your logic, your opinion, your bias when you read not anything common. 

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Your logic, your opinion, your bias when you read.

As I am acting like a hypocrite by engaging in this pointless discussion with you on this thread, I will end it here before John Suburbs, with just cause, jumps on me.

I'm done. Get the last word in if you must. I won't reply.

Have a nice day.

Edited by Darkstream

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1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Was she a hostage like Sansa or Jeyne?

Coming in on the tail end of a conversation. I guess you are comparing Daenerys situation to Sansa & Jeyne. No comparison. Daenerys was at the whim of her mentally unstable older brother's moods, He had the power and control whereas for a while Sansa & Jeyne had freedom and protection of loving adults.

I’m going to be upfront and say I have not ever cared about the Daenerys story. I skipped or skimmed most of her chapters until about two years ago when I made myself read every one of them.

King Robert wanted someone to take out the threat to his throne.  I don't have a problem with that. That is what happens when the Throne is at stake.

Viserys, the laughed at Begger King was the Targ with the name. Dany was her brother’s toy to use and abuse. Grates at my sense of human compassion and dignity. Wake the dragon, indeed. My judgment is that he deserved his golden crown.

Like I said, I don’t actually like Dany’s story line. Given the circumstances that Martin wrote for her she survived. The young teenage girl suffered some rather disgusting trials. Given the degenerate and repulsive environment she was thrust into she did okay.

Personally, I would be okay with her staying Essos.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

snip

Everyone whould had been ok with her staying in Essos. However I don't seriously believe that you seriously believe that the Lannnisters and Ramsey is the same category with Vis, hence yes Dany was abused but nowhere near how Sansa and Jeyne were.

The point is that someone cannot blame Robert for sending an assassin after she had already actively started to conspire against him, because she knew what she was doing and she was ok with that, because of how young she was when she had no problem to order genocide, mass murder of children younger than she was during AGOT.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 2017. 02. 25. at 0:49 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's a matter of opinion. Jon was not destroying the Night's Watch to save his sister. He couldn't meet Ramsay's terms, and if he didn't Ramsay promised (assuming Ramsay even wrote the letter) to come to him. The Bolton forces would have marched on Castle Black in all their strength and killed everyone, taking out one-third of the Watch and leaving the world far more vulnerable to the Others. Jon's decision to take a personal issue Ramsay had against him and change the field of battle to a place where the men of Castle Black wouldn't be harmed was a choice to SAVE the Watch. And he didn't ask anyone to go with him either. 

Ramsay was the one who issued the challenge. Jon was going to do what was necessary to save both the Watch and the world. 

Bowen Marsh was more concerned about the politics of Westeros than the real threat coming down from the North. Seems he forgot that the Watch is not supposed to take part in those squabbles. And don't bother saying Jon was taking part, he wasn't--he allowed Mel to send Mance, that's not the same as actively getting in the middle of things.

 

On 2017. 02. 25. at 1:16 AM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

I have to disagree with you.  Jon was responsible for starting that trouble.  He sent the wildlings to steal Arya away from the Boltons.  That's war.  Look what the Starks did when they thought the son of their king kidnapped Lyanna.  Brandon went to King's Landing and threatened the ruling family.  That trouble with the Boltons is all Jon's fault.

When we analyse Jon's decision here, I think there is one factor that often gets overlooked: Jon did not send the wildlings to to steal his sister from the Boltons. The information he had was that his sister was fleeing from the Boltons, looking for him, that she was alone in a very dangerous situation, on her way to Castle Black. He allowed Mance and the spearwives to go and find her on the road. We know that neither Arya nor fake-Arya left Winterfell at the time, we know that Mance and the spearwives found fake-Arya in Winterfell and attempted to steal her from Winterfell. but what Jon knew was this:

"I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse. I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will."

This is what Melisandre told Mance:

"Did your fires show you where to find this girl?"

"I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on forever."

"Long Lake. What else did you see around this girl? "

"Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail."

He frowned. "That will make it difficult. She was coming north, you said. Was the lake to her east or to her west?"

Melisandre closed her eyes, remembering. "West."

"She is not coming up on the kingsroad, then. Clever girl. There are fewer watchers on the other side, and more cover. And some hidey-holes I have used myself from time -"

Melisandre never said that Arya needed to be rescued from Winterfell. Long Lake is almost half-way between Winterfell and Castle Black. When Alys Karstark was found, we knew it from Jon's POV that he genuinely thought his sister had been found on the road. Yes, he had qualms about letting a group of wildlings "loose upon the North" because he knew he was responsible for whatever they would be doing there (including normal "wildling behaviour"), and he had to trust them to come back (just like in the case of Val), but he never sent Mance to Winterfell to steal Arya from the Boltons, he sent them to find his sister somewhere in the great northern wilderness and rescue her - much as Ned had sent out his men to find Arya before Cersei's men did after the incident between Arya and Joffrey. Sending out wildlings was the only alternative to sending out men of the Night's Watch, who had other duties to do. The decision involved certain risks, and Jon was aware of that (and note that he only agreed to the plan when he found out that the man was Mance, who he had some reason to trust, and not Rattleshirt, who had no honour at all); but he never told anything to Mance about going to Winterfell. What is more, on page even Melisandre only told Mance that Arya was to be found somewhere near Long Lake. How Mance ended up in Winterfell is a story we don't know (though we can guess), but it wasn't on Jon's orders.   

Sending out a group of people to find a sister who is already coming to him, alone and helpless in a very dangerous area, is very different from sending out a group of people to steal his sister from her husband.

I totally agree that, when Jon receives the Pink Letter containing an open threat, he has to deal with the problem somehow, and since he could never satisfy Ramsay's demands (not even if he wanted to), he has to prepare to save the Watch and he does what is best in this situation: finding a battle ground more advantageous for them than Castle Black and excluding the Watch from the confrontation by leading an army of wildlings into the battle. Jon does his best to take full and exclusive personal responsibility for the upcoming battle between the Bolton army and his wildling army, therefore I don't think it was necessary for Bowen Marsh to assassinate him if Marsh's true purpose was to save the Watch. 

 

Edited by Julia H.

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56 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 

When we analyse Jon's decision here, I think there is one factor that often gets overlooked: Jon did not send the wildlings to to steal his sister from the Boltons. The information he had was that his sister was fleeing from the Boltons, looking for him, that she was alone in a very dangerous situation, on her way to Castle Black. He allowed Mance and the spearwives to go and find her on the road. We know that neither Arya nor fake-Arya left Winterfell at the time, we know that Mance and the spearwives found fake-Arya in Winterfell and attempted to steal her from Winterfell. but what Jon knew was this:

"I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse. I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will."

<snip

I totally agree that, when Jon receives the Pink Letter containing an open threat, he has to deal with the problem somehow, and since he could never satisfy Mance's demands (not even if he wanted to), he has to prepare to save the Watch and he does what is best in this situation: finding a battle ground more advantageous for them than Castle Black and excluding the Watch from the confrontation by leading an army of wildlings into the battle. Jon does his best to take full and exclusive personal responsibility for the upcoming battle between the Bolton army and his wildling army, therefore I don't think it was necessary for Bowen Marsh to assassinate him if Marsh's true purpose was to save the Watch. 

 

Thanks for pointing that out, Julia H. I'd forgotten it.

Per the bolded...a little slip of the keyboard? :P I'm actually good with Mance writing the PL (makes the most sense to me) but the important thing here is that Jon thinks it was Ramsay.

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