Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 14 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Fair point, I was getting ahead of myself. But I disagree that the stepmother was running the show. If she was, she wouldn't have needed to poison the Waif. She could've just announce that she was disinherited. Well, the contention is that time was of the essence: they needed to reinforce Robert's army pronto, so perhaps there wasn't time to bring anyone else in. The timeline is very fuzzy. But given the choice between doing "the right thing" and saving the life of someone he loved, what would Ned do? GRRM says a lot of things. He says he's gonna finish the books one of these days, and we don't really believe that, do we? Jon disagrees. Read the scene. And also consider Jon's relationship with Ygritte, and the extreme hang-up he has about fathering a bastard with her. Yeah, that was a bit thin. But who cares? It's interesting. And I don't think it's totally beyond plausibility that GRRM would play silly buggers with the language. He's done it before. A fair point yourself, ser. If he was married to Ashara, and assuming he loved her, she would have been the foremost person in his mind and he would never have disgraced or disrespected her by marrying another woman for political or even military advantage. There was enough time to rope Jon Arryn into marrying Lysa. That means there was enough time to find someone else for Cat, or give her to Jon and find someone else for Lysa. Hoster might well have been willing to join the rebellion with just one daughter well married and Lady to a Lord Paramount. And if they'd gotten Tywin in early it would have changed all kinds of things. It still makes the most sense that Ned married Cat because she'd been promised she would be Lady Stark, and he had no one lined up for himself so it was convenient for everyone. It's certainly not without precedent in history. I do, actually. I've read the scene. He's not happy but it doesn't permanently damage him, and it's an isolated incident. Bastards in Westeros (outside of Dorne) are not treated well by society in general. Jon gets it from Theon, from Alliser Thorne, and who knows how many others while he's growing up. Don't you think that might be part of his not wanting to father a bastard? *raises hand* I do. Words should not be subjected to more contortions than Cirque du Soleil performers are. There are people who actually believe that baloney. Playing buggers with the language is not remotely the same as mixing up narrative and character thoughts. This is a fundamental writing basic. GRRM knows the basics and then some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: If he was married to Ashara, and assuming he loved her, she would have been the foremost person in his mind and he would never have disgraced or disrespected her by marrying another woman for political or even military advantage. One's mileage may vary, I suppose, but I don't think Ned was perfect. I'm quite sure there are some skeletons rattling around in his closet. 8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: There was enough time to rope Jon Arryn into marrying Lysa. That means there was enough time to find someone else for Cat, or give her to Jon and find someone else for Lysa. Was there? I've always assumed that Jon was at Riverrun too, at the head of some Vale forces, with Ned there with his northern troops, and Hoster Tully refusing to order his own army forward until his daughters were married off. He had them by the balls. 8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Hoster might well have been willing to join the rebellion with just one daughter well married and Lady to a Lord Paramount. Apparently not. 8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: It still makes the most sense that Ned married Cat because she'd been promised she would be Lady Stark, and he had no one lined up for himself so it was convenient for everyone. Agreed. 8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: I've read the scene. He's not happy but it doesn't permanently damage him, and it's an isolated incident. I was referring to his thoughts during the scene, about how previously Catelyn would make him cry, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I think Jon was the only child of an ancient House, and that Elia's children were by Arthur Dayne, giving them some Targaryen/Dayne looks as a result. And that this riddle combines Jon's status in House Targaryen and in House Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said: I think Jon was the only child of an ancient House, and that Elia's children were by Arthur Dayne, giving them some Targaryen/Dayne looks as a result. And that this riddle combines Jon's status in House Targaryen and in House Stark. That works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 13 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: One's mileage may vary, I suppose, but I don't think Ned was perfect. I'm quite sure there are some skeletons rattling around in his closet. Was there? I've always assumed that Jon was at Riverrun too, at the head of some Vale forces, with Ned there with his northern troops, and Hoster Tully refusing to order his own army forward until his daughters were married off. He had them by the balls. Apparently not. Agreed. I was referring to his thoughts during the scene, about how previously Catelyn would make him cry, etc. I've never thought Ned was perfect either but there are some things he just won't do. Warning Cersei was decent and honorable but incredibly stupid. A perfect Ned would not have done the stupid things that real Ned did. He did have them by the balls, and you could be right about Jon Arryn being at Riverrun, but I figured the negotiations were carried out via raven while Jon was marching toward Riverrun, so that there wouldn't be any time wasted. And I still don't think Hoster would have tried to force a married man to take another wife. That would be so Targaryen. Cat "making him cry" is a loaded term. We don't know that that was ever her intent. Given Jon's temperament I'm sure he found her distance hurtful, especially when he was younger. I'm primarily melancholy myself and some things affect me deeply, probably more deeply than they should. Over time I've learned to distinguish pretty well what was intended to upset me vs what I find upsetting regardless of the other person's intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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