Certain Problems Regarding the Legacy of the Kingmaker

[The Grey Wolf]

Am I the only one who sees a disconnection between the way Ser Criston Cole is presented in ASOIAF and the way he is presented in TRP/TPATQ/TWOIAF?

1. He is said by Jaime to be among both the best and worst of the Kingsguard but nothing presented by Yandel or Gyldayn gives us a reason to believe such an assessment.

2. In the books Ser Criston Cole is implied to have been a major political figure but in that regard he seems to be completely overshadowed by Alicent and Otto.

3. Two of the possible motives ascribed to him in ASOIAF is that Aegon was more pliable than Rhaenyra and that he was defending Andal tradition but neither of these appears to rest on any proof from the histories so how and why did people reach those conclusions about him?

4. During the Dance itself he acts incompetently and then dies like a chump less than halfway through without having done anything really meaningful apart from Rook's Rest.

Seriously, as far as I can tell it really doesn't add up.

 

[Curled Finger]

While I agree there is certainly a disconnect in Cole's story we have to keep in mind that a character such as Jamie would have access to more information than the histories give us.  There is Mushroom and the White Book as well as royal scandal gossip to consider.  While Cole appeared to be quite The Dude when he was younger there is a point in his professional life where he mounts that slippery slide.   Whatever his reasons it becomes obvious that he seriously commits to Alycent's cause.  Personally I think they were lovers, but it doesn't have to be that complicated.  Our mighty Tywin died like a chump, too.  

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

@The Grey Wolf I'd say different historiography & personal predicaments:

1. Particularly in his earlier years, Cole was quite the tourney champion & LC for near two decades - particularly appealing to Jaime. Not to mention, he "championed" Rhaenyra (i.e. Cersei) & then turned to Aegon (i.e. patriarchy, especially as Tywin's son) via Alicent (another Cersei parallel), but of course played the game of thrones (something Jaime disdains for KG in an active role - of course he has his own hypocrisy her with twincest, etc, but whatever) in doing so. Jaime's main source would be the White Book (favourable to Cole until the Dance at least) & snippets of partriachal based learning from his youth. Gyldayn & Yandel meanwhile scrutinised Cole & his relationships more, i.e. Cole was actually an utter turd, but Jaime sees him as more grey (perhaps also personally coloured by his own journey).
2. He was still a massive player before & during the Dance, but Alicent overshadows him because she was perhaps the only competent Green commander. I disagree with Otto - Alicent also trumped him & the only thing he did of note during the Dance was recruit the Triarchy. Before he was right up there towards his daughter much of the time, but he was quickly cast aside & killed during the war because his power & competency had diminished. Meanwhile, Cole is particularly highlighted by Arianne, Arys, & Barristan given their specific parallels to him or those he challenged, thus portaying him as having been such a major figure.
3. Again, those with a similar predicament for or against the patriarchal model of Westerosi succession are more likely to be for or against Cole by association of his "kingmaking", instead of his relationship with (grooming of Rhaenyra). Arianne doesn't think of him in terms of the latter, because her KG is on her side. Instead, she associates Cole with Anders Yronwood (Quent's foster father, & of perhaps Dorne's most patriarchal House). She also has the far more culturally & historically apt Nymeria, instead of Rhaenyra, to disassociate from the "romantic" side of Cole - therefore the Andal tradition of brother over sister with him instead. Also for Arys, he stayed with his princess instead, so as a KG is more like to be troubled by his "game of thrones" aspect with Cole. Barristan of course only has an aspect applicable of disdain for KG playing politics - something he is thrust into by situation (& being manipulated by Skahaz).
4. He was a steward's son (only for the Dondarrions, so not even on the level of the Pooles & certainly not the pre-Conquest Tyrells), so despite his natural (& developed) martial prowess, he didn't have the development into an actually skilled battle commander like say Daemon (royal learning privilege, dragonrider, plus experience). He was also blinded by his arrogance & hate for Rhaenyra & the Blacks - like how Tywin is controlled by his emotions & is rather average commander. Rook's Rest was a stupid plan that got lucky more dragons didn't come (it'd be very easy for a raven to have been sent to Daemon to help at the very least), whilst denuding KL of defenses (dragons, projectiles, & men) as Cole & Aemond would again later. Even still consolidating, the Blacks had the power to crush the Greens at Rook's Rest or take the capital earlier instead - even if they had of known about Rhaenyra being crushed by Luke's murder, it was a massive gamble. One that didn't pay off for them with ~1000 potential KL defenders killed (the gold cloaks would've had a harder time later if they were still around) & Aegon & Sunfyre almost killed. But yeah, it's just one of the Green commanders problems with what we know about the Dance, nevertheless.

@Curled Finger Interesting, I argue the opposite for Jaime in point 1 - he has less information than the historians, not to mention his own life colouring his perception.

[The Grey Wolf]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

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On Jaime: Its true the characters in-setting will have more knowledge than we do but still the histories available to us should give enough to understand why Jaime cites Cole as a bit of both the best and the worst.

On Tywin: The thing is with Tywin we get to see him be competent and dangerous and win before his inglorious death whereas with Cole he dies lamely less than halfway through the Dance after waltzing around being outsmarted at every turn without really contributing much to the Greens' war effort. Then again this is part of a larger problem in that the Greens are unbelievably incompetent.

13 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

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1: That still doesn't really explain how he is amongst the "best" and the "worst" of men. I mean the best of the Kingsguard were men like the Dragonknight and Ser Duncan the Tall and the worst were men like Ser Orivel and Ser Gyles Greycloak yet Cole fits neither extreme.

2. Going by the text he really wasn't actually. Apart from being Alicent's champion and tutoring Aemond we don't see him act in a political manner much.

3. My point was that people like Jaime, Arianne, and Arys are all highborn and educated yet none of them in ASOIAF mention Cole's relationship with Rhaenyra as part of his motives. In fact that came whole-cloth from TRP/TPATQ.

4. What I was trying to get at was that given his legacy over a century later it would have made more sense if Cole actually had success on the battlefield and proved to be a dangerous thorn in the Blacks' side rather than the idiot he and the rest of the Green leadership appear to have been.