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Is there any military unit in Game of thrones that can withstand an undead charge ?


MilesJames

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On 2/28/2017 at 6:18 AM, Nocturne said:

Well last season we have seen the Boltons use shield wall tactics, coupled with spears  and that's a good start. We know from Robert's rebellion that siege weapons like scorpions and trebuchet exists.

The human side could use a very basic roman tactic to defeat huge piles of undead: flaming war pigs. Use trebuchet to throw oil at them, use the pigs to set them on fire.

The advantage of the pig vs a boulder on fire is that the pigs move/make sounds and can cause chaos inside the undead ranks. The WW would have to at least try and focus on them, and not risk their armies set ablaze.

A disciplined 100k human army, could very well obliterate the wights with relative ease if they anticipate were the Others are going to strike. Problem is they are probably going to be taken by surprise, and they won't organise very well against them.

Then there's the fact that the Others can do magic, especially storm like magic...if they can conjure up tornados...Westerosi are pretty much fucked bar dragons.

I am not convinced. For starters it will be brutally cold, and stormy when the others attacks. There will be wights, animals(which include birds) and giants. Even the bravest army ever is going to not be fearless at the sight of that. In addition wights are harder to out down than men, even head shots do not nesicarly bring them down. They will mot charge a shield wall one at a time they will charge in a hivenet way. Maybe a shield wall could stop one per man but not a hive fearless formation. 

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On 2/28/2017 at 9:01 AM, Ser Wun Wun said:

I don't think so.  A human army will usually break and flee after suffering a certain level of casualties, but the undead will literally fight to the last man every time.  You'd need a Unsullied type of army to stand their ground to the last man against the undead.  Westerosi peasants ain't gonna do that.  

Just thinking about the sort of tactical advantages a wight army has....They don't eat.  No supply lines.  They probably don't sleep or rest, so they could march 2-3 times as much ground in a day as a human army.  Depending on how many of your own people die, the wight army might be larger at the end of a battle than it was at the beginning, once they turn your own dead against you.  Fire hurts them, but the weather gets pretty bad when they come around, so keeping it going ain't easy.  

Basically, I don't know how the hell you beat an army with those sort of tactical advantages without the use of dragons and/or other magical weapons.   

Edit: Thinking about it some more...what's to stop the Walkers from raising your dead against you pretty much instantly?  I mean, imagine you're in a shield wall, the man next to you dies....then quickly gets back up and starts killing from within your ranks?  It would be impossible to maintain a disciplined line under those circumstances.  

So yeah, without magical help, I'd say humans are completely fucked.  

I don't even think the unsullied would be brave enough to hold. A shield wall would not work in real life if evreyone fearless charged the shield wall at once in a hivemind tatic. Now these wights can do that and being stabed through the stomach will barely even delay them. This does not even take into account the others giants and animals.  Once the shield wall gets annialated even the unsullied will breal. 

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1 hour ago, MilesJames said:

I am not convinced. For starters it will be brutally cold, and stormy when the others attacks. There will be wights, animals(which include birds) and giants. Even the bravest army ever is going to not be fearless at the sight of that. In addition wights are harder to out down than men, even head shots do not nesicarly bring them down. They will mot charge a shield wall one at a time they will charge in a hivenet way. Maybe a shield wall could stop one per man but not a hive fearless formation. 

It crossed my mind the most creepy and disturbing image,  the WW coming down Westeros from the Wall, and all the dead rising and leaving their tombs along their walk down. The living can not stop them, they do their best and take down many, but they can not reach the Night King and  have to yield ground and retreat, and each fallen from the side of the living is one more that joins the WW army; there's no time to burn them. When they reach Winterfell, there is an underground tremor, and all the Stark corpses that are not yet dusty come out of the Crypt, first Rickon, then Ned (where is Robb?) ... Lyanna... Brandon... their mother...

The living are doomed without magic, unless they come up with a good plan to take down the Night King. Formations, and shields, and battle tactics, are hopeless.

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17 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Get an army of elves from the LOTR and they'll make quick work of any wights

Yes, they would. But the armies of Westeros just arent as skillful as the Elves of Middle Earth, nor are they as tough and resilient as the Dwarves. An army of Legolas' or Gimlis' would crush the wights.

But then, even the likes of Ser Arthur Dayne or Ser Barristan Selmy would only be of average (or maybe even below average) skill in a Middle Earth Elven army.

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5 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Get an army of elves from the LOTR and they'll make quick work of any wights

Movie elves get wrecked fast. Book elves wreck depending on which eves. Ie elves who fought before events in books utterly destroy. Normal book elves not so much.

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6 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

It crossed my mind the most creepy and disturbing image,  the WW coming down Westeros from the Wall, and all the dead rising and leaving their tombs along their walk down. The living can not stop them, they do their best and take down many, but they can not reach the Night King and  have to yield ground and retreat, and each fallen from the side of the living is one more that joins the WW army; there's no time to burn them. When they reach Winterfell, there is an underground tremor, and all the Stark corpses that are not yet dusty come out of the Crypt, first Rickon, then Ned (where is Robb?) ... Lyanna... Brandon... their mother...

The living are doomed without magic, unless they come up with a good plan to take down the Night King. Formations, and shields, and battle tactics, are hopeless.

I don't think a good plan without magic or at least dragons can be enough unless Night king makes very stupid choices like intentionally fighting Jon snow is one to one combat.  There is no possible way you can charge through wights formation to get to others. Any formation that tries will die. Maybe if you have enough wildfire to torch all the wights in the way. Even than though Night's king can use magic and can most likely stop wildfire explosion/put it out. Another problem is the Night's king is superior to a human fighter in every way. Even Sir Author Dayne should get wrecked by him in combat. There is also the strong possibility that killing the Night's king would accomplish nothing as all others can raise dead. 

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Without dragons, there is no chance, unless there's some other type of magic that can work against the Walkers and wights, but so far there's been no hint of that. Both the novels and the show have maneuvered Westeros to the point where it can't win without Mary Sue Dany. Armies with dragonglass and incendiary weapons, fortresses, siege engines, wargs, Arya, Bran can only support Dany. They can't lead the charge. What made last week's Dany-Jon debate so ridiculous was that it was obvious Dany held every card. Jon had nothing going for him, nothing to bargain with; she even has the dragonglass. Given all that, and all he knows of the Walkers, why Jon wouldn't bend the knee was a tad incomprehensible. Why she didn't force the issue was less incomprehensible: the show might flirt with having her turn fire-blood cruel, but it'll never go all the way with it.

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15 hours ago, kimim said:

Without dragons, there is no chance, unless there's some other type of magic that can work against the Walkers and wights, but so far there's been no hint of that. Both the novels and the show have maneuvered Westeros to the point where it can't win without Mary Sue Dany. Armies with dragonglass and incendiary weapons, fortresses, siege engines, wargs, Arya, Bran can only support Dany. They can't lead the charge. What made last week's Dany-Jon debate so ridiculous was that it was obvious Dany held every card. Jon had nothing going for him, nothing to bargain with; she even has the dragonglass. Given all that, and all he knows of the Walkers, why Jon wouldn't bend the knee was a tad incomprehensible. Why she didn't force the issue was less incomprehensible: the show might flirt with having her turn fire-blood cruel, but it'll never go all the way with it.

Jon may of refused to bend the knee becuase he thought Dynerias may of ordered him to help attack Cersi. If I were Jon I would think the only chance humanity has is holding the wall. There is where my real desperate final stand to the last man would be. After that its a losing battlr. 

The show may go the whole Jon/Dynerias marriage route, which could be why he refused to bow the kner. 

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On 2/25/2017 at 7:38 PM, MilesJames said:

How could any military in Westroes without dragons withstand a single undead charge ? 

I would work on making dragonglass shrapnel explosives, maybe using wildfire as the propellant. Setup minefields. Flak cannons for when/if the Others field ice dragons. Apparently there's a literal mountain of dragonglass under Dragonstone, so making a shitload of the things shouldn't be a problem, and the pyromancers said they're making the wildfire at a much higher rate now as well.

What would be best would be a shotgun, shells filled with dragonglass shrapnel and wildfire. I don't really see why such a device would be implausible. I'd pay good money to see Bronn kill zombies with a shotgun, belching green fire with every discharge.

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22 hours ago, kimim said:

Without dragons, there is no chance, unless there's some other type of magic that can work against the Walkers and wights, but so far there's been no hint of that. Both the novels and the show have maneuvered Westeros to the point where it can't win without Mary Sue Dany. Armies with dragonglass and incendiary weapons, fortresses, siege engines, wargs, Arya, Bran can only support Dany. They can't lead the charge. What made last week's Dany-Jon debate so ridiculous was that it was obvious Dany held every card. Jon had nothing going for him, nothing to bargain with; she even has the dragonglass. Given all that, and all he knows of the Walkers, why Jon wouldn't bend the knee was a tad incomprehensible. Why she didn't force the issue was less incomprehensible: the show might flirt with having her turn fire-blood cruel, but it'll never go all the way with it.

I think that the key point here is magic, not particularly  dragons: They are, but because they are magical creatures. The Others were already bested once, or at least contained, without dragons. There  are not Weterosi myths or ancient stories about dragons prior to Aegon's arrival; yet there are ancient stories about the Others, and how the Wall was built, same stories that state the builder as a Stark. We know the Wall has magic in it, not only ice, and it is the magic what prevented the Others to pass. I don't think that Arya's, and particularly Bran's role would be only as Dany supporters.

Given all Jon knows about the WW and which  the real threat is, he can not waste time with a girl/s conquest games. Why she didn't force the issue? How would she do it? "I won't give you anything if you don't bend the knee, I'll let the WW take everyting"?

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wildfyre launched from catapults. its doesnt quench in water, and when it burns, it would melt the snow, spreading the wildfyre more. flaming arrows in the dead. they catch more easily then regular corpses, and as the flail about, then will spread the flames to others zombies.

use a shield wall armed with pikes and tridents, not spears. the cross bars at the heads will physically hold the dead away, forcing the them to pile together in bunches as they try and reach living flesh.

let knights of acceptable skill move about, cutting down the dead, and have men move in behind them with torches to light every corpse on the ground, use cavalry to crush down swathes of the enemy, and then let foot men rush to haul bodies to nearby bonfires, or light them on the spot with torches.

once large enough dead are massed, let dragons make strafing runs, light large numbers on fire.

make heavy use of large maces and hammers, these would effective at smashing the bonier older dead to pieces, which are less dangerous than a whole corpse. the fleshy dead would be more durable, need to cut them to pieces.

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Imagine how pissed off the Night King would get. If they created an army of Mechanical men to fight the dead. Like in the Hellboy 2 movie. They wouldnt be able to raise them and being made of metal would be even less immune to damage. And whats more if the metal army breathes fire. Heck even an army of Tin Men from the Wizard of Oz could beat the army of the dead.

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8 hours ago, pinoyathletics said:

Imagine how pissed off the Night King would get. If they created an army of Mechanical men to fight the dead. Like in the Hellboy 2 movie. They wouldnt be able to raise them and being made of metal would be even less immune to damage. And whats more if the metal army breathes fire. Heck even an army of Tin Men from the Wizard of Oz could beat the army of the dead.

Yes the humans in a show set in medevial tech should be able to build more advanced robotics that we can today and they should breathe fire  

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18 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I would work on making dragonglass shrapnel explosives, maybe using wildfire as the propellant. Setup minefields. Flak cannons for when/if the Others field ice dragons. Apparently there's a literal mountain of dragonglass under Dragonstone, so making a shitload of the things shouldn't be a problem, and the pyromancers said they're making the wildfire at a much higher rate now as well.

What would be best would be a shotgun, shells filled with dragonglass shrapnel and wildfire. I don't really see why such a device would be implausible. I'd pay good money to see Bronn kill zombies with a shotgun, belching green fire with every discharge.

Medevial time period 

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the armies cant use the same tactics on the dead that they would use on the livng, especially tactics that are supposed to counter heavy number advantages. if this was a living army, the westerosi could pull a Thermopylae, and hold them at t arelatively narrow point of terrain, as it would hinder the enemies ability to fully utilize their numerical superiority.

but against the dead, this tactic would not only be useless, but be worse than useless. we have seen that to the dead, vertical and parallel horizontal surfaces are no hindrance. the dead wouldnt simply pile agianst a shield wall like what was used by the spartans, anchored and secured on its flanks be steep canyon walls; the dead can scale and move about on those canyon walls like spiders or cockroaches. they can easily crawl past the foremost lines of defending soldiers and fall upon their unguarded rear, simply drop onto the soldiers from a above, opening holes in the line. 

so the main huiman tactic of using a confined space to limit numerical superiority will simply back fire on them. their best bet is to simply engage the dead in the open field, deny them the use of unconventional mobility.

cavalry would be of limited use. the main power of a cavalry charge is the shock value. while we love the mental image of the glorious charge, like what we see in the Return of the King, in real life, a horse isnt going to throw itself into a wall of long , sharp, pointy things that they have little chance of jumping over. not even steeple chasers are going to do that without incredible amounts of chasing, and there is a limit to the height the chaser can jump over. by nature horses are prey animals, and their only natural defense against predators and other threats is to run away, not at. while they are perfectly willing to run down a fleeing opponent, a foe standing firm is going to deter a committed charge from the horse, regardless what the rider wants. the dead are not going to be shocked or scared, so no shock value. and even if the cavalry does managed to force itself into the dead's lines, at that point the zombies become more a ocean tide or flood that the horse and rider are trying to ford. and this flood is going to reach out with bony clawed hands to grab at the horse and rider, ripping out handfuls of horse flesh and pulling both the rider and animal down into a sea of rotting, grasping bodies.

were the cavalry would most useful would be to taking slicing attacks at thin areas of the enemy's flanks, places where the numbers arent great enough to bog down the horses, and smash into the bodies, using the horses hooves to smash bones and bodies til the dead can no longer physically move.

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and you cant use the same sort of weapons as normal. these things are already dead, so you arent trying to kill them, not like you would a living man. the goal is to do as much physical damage to their bodies as possible, preferably destroying the bodies ability to move. break legs and arms, remove head to they dont bite. the older bony guys can be smashed to relatively harmless pieces with maces, hammers, larges axes and greatswords. the fleshy ones, hew the arms and legs from their torsos  spears are useless, desgined to kill a person with relatively little damage to the body, more for reaching the vital organs or causing wounds the will lead to blood loss. a dead man would simply impale himself, and keep going, pulling himself along the shaft to reach the guy holding it. but pikes, halberds, and tridents usually have something like a crossbar at the head of the weapon. that enough of an impediment to hold a corpse beyond arm's reach.

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On 2/27/2017 at 1:35 PM, Nyala said:

Pretty sure only the dragons are capable of defeating them, I feel like it's the major reason they're in the plot to begin with.

Also wildfire might be an option, but I feel like it's too much of a risk. Many people will probably die as result, plus the undead army has millions of soldiers. I think they won't be able to make enough wildfire on time to kill them all.

Winterfell was built by Brann the builder, the same that built the Wall, as such I would expect some form of magic protection from the WW's. Second of all, it has two large granite walls, with a moat between them. The moat would be an excellent place for wildfire. 

 

In open combat the Humans don't have much a chance, however, it is about picking your places of engagement to increase your odds. Two walls with a moat of wildfire, some Winterfell magic, archers with dragonglass arrow heads, and a few dragons burning the wights, increases humankind chances for survival substantially. 

 

The Vale is another defendable position, as is Moat Callin. 

We have already seen multiple scenes with ships throwing flaming balls, so naval support is another option. 

 

As for the peasants choosing to run and not fight, they would fight to the death if they were fighting for their wives and children, who were also at WF. 

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