Arya will become Queen

[zandru]

No comment on Arya's question (desire, maybe?) on becoming a King's Councilor? Maybe Hand of the King?

Really, I think her development is giving her a good background in that regard. The traditional Westerosi "queen" is merely the King's Consort. Her role is to pump out pedigreed sons, look pretty, and do the whole "manners" thing. That's Sansa. It's always been Sansa.

If we're looking at Arya as "female King", on the other hand, her identification with the common folk and in depth understanding of their concerns is a liability - look at Aegon the Unlikely. Bad end. Bad, bad end for him and his closest friends and family (see "Summerhall"). You don't necessarily want the "micro" approach as much as the "macro", political point of view in a sovereign. We haven't seen that Arya is moving in that direction, and Sansa definitely isn't. But Sansa is tapped as a King's Consort, not a reigning monarch. Dany is the one who's consciously and carefully prepping herself for Queenship.

Arya's learning of other cultures, languages; learning to read people, detect lies, lie successfully herself; collect and evaluate information; become and blend in to other social classes; learning to kill a thousand different ways, with or without the use of sight - these would be good characteristics for a Hand - or Master of Whispers. Which would be a real gig, as opposed to being an ornament.

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

I'm curious what you think is or isn't foreshadowing? 

I think it's very hard to tell at this point in the story since it isn't finished. Essentially, for me to call something foreshadowing right now, it has to be something that might not catch your attention at first, but once an idea takes hold you can go back and see all the hints pointing towards it and it's hard to see how it could be something else. R+L=J is one of those for me. Aegon being an imposter is another. It's not about predicting the details of the story, but rather how it all fits together as a narrative and the shape of it. Sansa is being groomed for a role, but I don't know exactly what it will be. Her arc speaks of being a powerful and successful lady, but her exact position I couldn't say. Arya as queen doesn't make as much sense as these other things, so I find it hard to call it foreshadowing at this point.

Quote

 

One of the biggest clues would be Varys' Speech. You talk of Arya's growth and experiences and we see an overlap with the things George highlights in this speech. She is more than fury and vengeance - This was what the OP meant: so much of Arya's story is overlooked and simplified. She speaks like a Lord's daughter and her identity as such has endured throughout her story. Arya is learning to be anyone, adapt and thrive in difficult situations. No lie will be safe from her - how useful will this be? She can speak multiple languages and has lived amoung fisherfolk in a port city where she is exposed to all kinds of people from all over the world.

 

I agree with a later poster that Arya's training fits more with her being a valuable operative for some Lord or Lady, but not the Lady herself. Her training is not aimed towards leading.

I guess my problem with taking specific lines and singling them out is that some of it may just be an artistic choice. An example used earlier was Ned saying 'father of queens'. Well, ok, he said queens, but that is more elegant and artistic than just saying 'the father of a queen'. I'm sure some of what people are seeing is foreshadowing (not just this theory, many others too), but I'm also equally sure that some of it is not. I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to something being foreshadowing if it fits the overall narrative as I understand it. I just don't understand how Arya's arc culminates in her becoming a queen, and specifically Jon's queen.

We shall see indeed. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

No comment on Arya's question (desire, maybe?) on becoming a King's Councilor? Maybe Hand of the King?

Really, I think her development is giving her a good background in that regard. The traditional Westerosi "queen" is merely the King's Consort. Her role is to pump out pedigreed sons, look pretty, and do the whole "manners" thing. That's Sansa. It's always been Sansa.

If we're looking at Arya as "female King", on the other hand, her identification with the common folk and in depth understanding of their concerns is a liability - look at Aegon the Unlikely. Bad end. Bad, bad end for him and his closest friends and family (see "Summerhall"). You don't necessarily want the "micro" approach as much as the "macro", political point of view in a sovereign. We haven't seen that Arya is moving in that direction, and Sansa definitely isn't. But Sansa is tapped as a King's Consort, not a reigning monarch. Dany is the one who's consciously and carefully prepping herself for Queenship.

Arya's learning of other cultures, languages; learning to read people, detect lies, lie successfully herself; collect and evaluate information; become and blend in to other social classes; learning to kill a thousand different ways, with or without the use of sight - these would be good characteristics for a Hand - or Master of Whispers. Which would be a real gig, as opposed to being an ornament.

I agree with this almost entirely. It is very telling which of the proposed futures for Bran Arya picks up on and asks Ned if she could do the same.

I would say Egg's biggest problem was that he lacked the ability to force the changes he desired through - a situation that a restored and independent Stark kingdom in the North might not face. I don't think Arya has the ruthlessness required to be Master of Whispers, she would be better suited to Laws or Hand on a council. Maybe Coin if she brushes up on her maths again.

[Protagoras]

4 hours ago, TyrionTLannister said:

Sacrifice all her agency? She would be one of the most powerful people in Westeros... 

And as Cersei showed us, that doesn´t mean you will be able to fulfill your ambitions nor even the possibility to make own decisions. She was a glorified baby-maker. And so will Arya be.

If you want to force this marriage and this new title on Arya despite what she think and then argue that you do Arya a favor then you are delusional. At least admit that you don´t give two shits about what Arya want.

Edit: To make my point even clearer that it is all about Jon, lets assume Arya will become queen but her husband will not be Jon but someone else. Would you still want her to become queen?

Yeah - didn´t think so.

[Roswell]

I don't believe Arya will be Queen of Westeros.  She would make for an awful queen.  However, there is reason to believe that the north will regain independence temporarily and the Starks will temporarily regain the title "kings of winter".  Jon will marry ARya and they will rule for a while practicing the religion of the ancient First Men.  Spring will return and the Targaryens will take the north back, Jon and Arya will die.

 

[sweetsunray]

I can see Arya as a queen, but only in one particular situation: an exodus queen, leading thousands of sails with survivors westward to find a new continent.

As for some book quotes cited:

"Already in love": while this can be a foreshadowing quote, it is more a foreshadowing of Arya as character in relation to love, rather than Arya already in love with Jon. At the time Arya falls in love with her wolf puppy at first sight. This could imply that when Arya falls in love with a boy/young man, it will be love at first sight. The only boy I can see that apply to is Gendry. Because if Arya is a love-at-first-sight kinda girl, and you recognize she is attracted to Gendry (in a manner appropriate for her age), then he can't be a foil for Jon at all.

Giving Needle: Jon is NOT giving his own sword to Arya. He's giving Arya her own sword. So, if you want to see that in any sexual context, it means that Jon empowers Arya to a) have her own symbolic balls b ) enables her to make up her own mind, choose whomever she wants for herself. When a man gives his "own sword" to a girl/woman, he's symbolically pledging faithfulness to that girl. And if Jon giving Needle to Arya was to be taken that way, then he wouldn't have slept with Ygritte, nor daydream of children with Val.

[Nevets]

I doubt that she will become of Westeros, but I like the idea of her being Queen or other ruler of the North.  I can imagine it happening, and it would be a perfect bittersweet ending.  She gets to be a ruler, something that she never wanted, but that gives her a chance to do something worthwhile.

She has shown leadership potential with the children from the NW (certainly more than Gendry, who I keep seeing a candidate for leader of BwB or Lord of Storms End).  And in the preview chapter

she is practically holding things together at the theater.

   She is currently only 11, and hasn't even gone through puberty.  It is possibly, maybe even likely, that her interests could change drastically.

@DutchArya's suggestion that the similarities between her conversation with Ned and the one between Cersei and Maggy are foreshadowing is interesting, as well.   Maybe Ned's statements will be true, as Maggy's were.  Fortunately, nothing Ned says is all that bad.  And she didn't really reject the idea, she just says that it's Sansa's destiny.  Which, at the time, it was.  

47 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

And as Cersei showed us, that doesn´t mean you will be able to fulfill your ambitions nor even the possibility to make own decisions. She was a glorified baby-maker. And so will Arya be.

If you want to force this marriage and this new title on Arya despite what she think and then argue that you do Arya a favor then you are delusional. At least admit that you don´t give two shits about what Arya want.

Edit: To make my point even clearer that it is all about Jon, lets assume Arya will become queen but her husband will not be Jon but someone else. Would you still want her to become queen?

Yeah - didn´t think so.

Being married to a king wouldn't necessarily be bad.  She would need to be married to someone who respected her, and would listen to her.  That might have been the case had Robert married Lyanna.  It definitely wasn't with Cersei - which probably reflects on both of their personalities.  On the other hand, Catelyn did quite well with Ned, because he respected and listened to her.  And Arya is, I think very much like her mother.  She has a sense of honor and duty, leavened with a sense of pragmatism and ruthless, which Ned lacked.

One thing I expect is that the fight against the Others will decimate the leading famiies, meaning that those members who are left are pretty much all going to have to take leadership posts, whether they want them or not - Arya included, if she's still alive.

[zandru]

21 minutes ago, Nevets said:

One thing I expect is that the fight against the Others will decimate the leading famiies, meaning that those members who are left are pretty much all going to have to take leadership posts, whether they want them or not - Arya included, if she's still alive.

Good observation! If the coming of winter is bad enough, followed by the spring sicknesses, having a war with the Others during the winter is sure to wipe out tens of thousands. And this after the assorted wars of the 5 would-be kings had already decimated 6 of the 7 kingdoms. Let's not even mention the dragon-borne devastation that will result, assuming Daenerys ever gets there. Many an old house will be completely destroyed. New ones will rise (unless Dany has some highly progressive ideas about government...)

[PCK]

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I think it's very hard to tell at this point in the story since it isn't finished. Essentially, for me to call something foreshadowing right now, it has to be something that might not catch your attention at first, but once an idea takes hold you can go back and see all the hints pointing towards it and it's hard to see how it could be something else. R+L=J is one of those for me. Aegon being an imposter is another. It's not about predicting the details of the story, but rather how it all fits together as a narrative and the shape of it. Sansa is being groomed for a role, but I don't know exactly what it will be. Her arc speaks of being a powerful and successful lady, but her exact position I couldn't say. Arya as queen doesn't make as much sense as these other things, so I find it hard to call it foreshadowing at this point.

I agree with a later poster that Arya's training fits more with her being a valuable operative for some Lord or Lady, but not the Lady herself. Her training is not aimed towards leading.

I guess my problem with taking specific lines and singling them out is that some of it may just be an artistic choice. An example used earlier was Ned saying 'father of queens'. Well, ok, he said queens, but that is more elegant and artistic than just saying 'the father of a queen'. I'm sure some of what people are seeing is foreshadowing (not just this theory, many others too), but I'm also equally sure that some of it is not. I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to something being foreshadowing if it fits the overall narrative as I understand it. I just don't understand how Arya's arc culminates in her becoming a queen, and specifically Jon's queen.

We shall see indeed. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Sansa's experiences are training her to either be a queen or a strategist like Olenna. She's been exposed to viscious monarchs who don't amount to more than pawns (Joffrey & Cersei) and the real schemers and adept players of the game of thrones (Littlefinger and Olenna).

I've started to like Sansa more than I did originally. There's much more to her than it first appears. She's like a deconstruction of a typical fairy tale princess. Plus, she's exposed to some of the better characters in her POV. Without her, who would we get to see Littlefinger's machinations with?

[Lord Wraith]

Considering the amount of supposed foreshadowing of Arya being dead and a Queen I subscribe to the theory that Arya will die and live a second life in Nymeria. A second life worthy of a Queen. She will finally have her pack and can still unleash revenge as Big Nyms.

[Gertrude]

50 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Considering the amount of supposed foreshadowing of Arya being dead and a Queen I subscribe to the theory that Arya will die and live a second life in Nymeria. A second life worthy of a Queen. She will finally have her pack and can still unleash revenge as Big Nyms.

OK, so you found the one theory of Arya being a queen that I like - Queen Nymeria! the Queen in the So .. er, NORTH!

[GhostNymeria]

I think there's definitey a possibility. Nymeria was named after a queen and is a leader of a giant pack of wolfs after all. Out of the Stark sibling's wolfs, I don't see why the name "Nymeria" would be the only wolf name that doesn't mirror the owners story/fate. I like to add two quotes from AFFC ad ADWD.

In AFFC, when Brienne is looking for Sansa at the Crossroads Inn she encounters Willow, who she suspects being Arya.

Quote

"Gendry was the closest thing to a man grown, but it was Willow shouting all the orders, as if she were a queen in her castle and the other children were no more than servants. If she were highborn, command would come naturally to her, and deference to them. Brienne wondered whether Willow might be more than she appeared. The girl was too young and too plain to be Sansa Stark, but she was of the right age to be the younger sister, and even Lady Catelyn had said that Arya lacked her sister's beauty. Brown hair, brown eyes, skinny . . . could it be? Arya Stark's hair was brown, she recalled, but Brienne was not sure of the color of her eyes. Brown and brown, was that it? Could it be that she did not die at Saltpans after all?"

Here, a character mistaken for Arya is described as "a queen in her castle".

Similarly in ADWD, Alys Karstark, another character mistaken for Arya gets queen imagery:

Quote

"The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. "

So we got two small characters being mistaken for Arya and getting queen imagery in their descriptions.

[Jon Snow is a loser]

4 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Considering the amount of supposed foreshadowing of Arya being dead and a Queen I subscribe to the theory that Arya will die and live a second life in Nymeria. A second life worthy of a Queen. She will finally have her pack and can still unleash revenge as Big Nyms.

and maybe rules with Jon in Ghost's body. I would love to see the look on  Arya-Jon shippers' face when their ship materialize in the way that they probably don't like. LOL 

[Therae]

11 minutes ago, Jon Snow is a loser said:

and maybe rules with Jon in Ghost's body.

So dead Arya, dead Jon, but Ghost <3s Nymeria 4eva and together they rule whatever is left of the Riverlands after the war for the dawn?

Well, it would be bittersweet.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow is a loser said:

I would love to see the look at  Arya-Jon shippers when their ship materialize in the way that they probably don't like.

Well, there's that... On the other hand, if you think a half brother and sister were incestuous, and cousins not that much better, litter mates would be another Cersei/Jaime-style abomination.

[Luddagain]

I think it is pretty obvious that Arya will be queen of somewhere - or at least princess.

 

The names of the wolves describe their role and their futures

 

grey wind, powerful strong but short lived

Ghost - important  - just now sure how

Lady - obviously Sansa's personality and halso her future

Nymeria - Arya will have a future that in some sense parallels that of Nymeria - perhaps she will lead the enslaved wildings home or perhaps she will lead the company of the Blue rose home to the North.

Summer is a critical name - Bran will bring the return of Summer and defeat the others

Shaggy - well I expect rickon always to be wild and unpredicatable and not very civilized.

 

 

[GhostNymeria]

36 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

I think it is pretty obvious that Arya will be queen of somewhere - or at least princess.

 

The names of the wolves describe their role and their futures

 

grey wind, powerful strong but short lived

Ghost - important  - just now sure how

Lady - obviously Sansa's personality and halso her future

Nymeria - Arya will have a future that in some sense parallels that of Nymeria - perhaps she will lead the enslaved wildings home or perhaps she will lead the company of the Blue rose home to the North.

Summer is a critical name - Bran will bring the return of Summer and defeat the others

Shaggy - well I expect rickon always to be wild and unpredicatable and not very civilized.

Yep I agree. Grrm named her wolf after a leader for a reason, wether or not she will be queen of Westeros.

[Gertrude]

I just thought Nymeria was named because she was a fierce warrior woman in a land that lacks many examples of that. It could be that there's more to it, specifically the queen part, but I think it's a pretty good fit already without adding more to it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Shaggy - well I expect rickon always to be wild and unpredicatable and not very civilized.

Or it could had something to do with shaggy dog story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story

 

[GhostNymeria]

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I just thought Nymeria was named because she was a fierce warrior woman in a land that lacks many examples of that. It could be that there's more to it, specifically the queen part, but I think it's a pretty good fit already without adding more to it.

I agree that this interpretation fits as well. But why I think it will also mirror her fate as a leader is because the names Grey Wind and Summer isn't really mirroring Robb's and Bran's personalities. Wouldn't you agree that the name Grey Wind represents Robb's fate? And we have Jon who probably died and will be ressurected, who have a direwolf named Ghost.