Arya will become Queen

[Springwatch]

All the Stark kids are losing their identities, and none of them have turned the corner yet - none of them have pulled their thoughts together and decided 'I am Stark, my values are Stark values. I will not violate Hodor / help Littlefinger / kill on command.' Something must happen to set them on the right path, I don't know what.

 

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

...

Though I like your idea of Arya perhaps being forced to accept some of her society's norms when it comes to gender roles, but without giving herself up in the process. Not because I have anything against tomboys (I positively LOVE Brienne) but because it would indeed be a very interesting process to watch and would indeed be a sign of maturity on her part as she accepts that, in the end she will have to work within the society she lives in and the expectations that society places on her. She could grow up into something like a more benevolent version of  Magaret of Anjou....

I like this, yet I can't let go the idea of Arya as the 'maiden of the tree' - maybe because of the acorn dress, maybe because it seems so like her to only accept a man on her own terms. I don't see her becoming 100% a courtier, I think she will define her own role in life.

 

18 hours ago, Springwatch said:

... So Gendry must be king because he's young and good-looking and the nearest thing to a republican in the books...

@The Fattest Leech 'republican' does look a bit weird now I come to re-read it. I was aiming at liberté, égalité, fraternité - not so much modern political thought.

 

18 hours ago, Nevets said:

Nice to see that you agree with me!  

I think the series is as realistic as it can be- given the strictures of the setting.  I will admit it has more coincidences and contrivances that would be nice, but the characters for the most part act in a realistic manner to the situations they are presented with.  Irrational, maybe, but not entirely unrealistic.  Gendry being selected to rule anything is not a realistic action on anybody's part....

On this one point, we are totally in disagreement, and that's fine. Generally though, it's not a case of one correct interpretation, it's more that the reader chooses how much weight to give to realism, foreshadowing, and dramatic effect. Nowadays, I'm reading the books as pure theatre; before, I think I was trying for alternative history. Different ideas became possible, and my reading stops tripping up over odd stuff.

(eg, Arya's sword has a scabbard of supple leather. [Old thinking:] No, seriously?? Why would it be made to be supple? Is it not the essence of a scabbard to be rigid?? What, does she have to pull it on like a sock? And why doesn't the pointy end tear holes in it? [New thinking:] Arya is defined visually here - though skinny and small, she is true steel beneath the skin.

[zandru]

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

And why doesn't the pointy end tear holes in it?

Because the hilt on the sword stops it from going all the way to the end of the scabbard and poking its way out. (Then, the next problem might be in not snagging the scabbard while you put the sword away... Could be a a design flaw, as you noted!)

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Though I like your idea of Arya perhaps being forced to accept some of her society's norms when it comes to gender roles, but without giving herself up in the process.

Good point! I wonder why Ned never suggested to Arya that it was enough for her to learn to ACT the lady, when circumstances required it, but otherwise be free to be herself. Just add "ladiness" as another skill she had to learn, like horseback riding, tending wounds, or hunting. Although, in her Faceless Man training and latest, in traveling with the mummers, she's really become familiar with playing the role that's required, while remaining at core Arya of House Stark.

[GhostNymeria]

4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Arya's first though about killing a woman because she was being inconvenienced is not just an over-reaction, it's disturbing. And yes, Arya is fully capable of fitting in with society - that's what a large part of her training is, blending in. In the Mercy chapter, does Arya actually seem like she is making friends and forming bonds, or does she just go through the motions? In the news when there's a killing, how often do you hear people saying they never suspected, he was such a nice guy. Someone who can kill with such ease and with such little regard or reason is not safe to have loose in society at large.

The woman took all her money, which was all Arya had. It was also her only safe way out of the Riverlands at that point. Then the woman treathened to kill her.

Arya didn't think about killing her because "she was inconvenienced" by her. More things were at stake here for Arya. She thought about killing her because the woman stole her only escape plan and hope to get back to the north and to Jon. When Arya left Sandor, her only goal was to reach Jon because she thought she literally had nowere else to go. From Arya's perspective, the woman stealing her money also ment her stealing Arya's only hope that drove her forward at that point. Of course she would think about a way to get her money back. 

[a black swan]

7 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

I have not looked into all the history of Westeros in detail I admit, but there were child queen regnants? In any case an underage ruler would be placed under a regent, who would be the actual ruler.

An older Arya, IF she were to become queen and IF that title would be queen regnant and not queen consort, would be capable of ruling in her own right, as well as marry and, in that way, secure her succession.

A Queen that has some interesting parallels with Arya - who was married to the King who also happens to be her brother. Queen Alysanne Targaryen was 12 years old when she became Queen, she became the King's most trusted Councillor, a builder of castle(s) and had the love of the smallfolk. She was a hunter, an archer and a free spirit. Not to mention she also shares similar views to Arya regarding women's importance and status in Westerosi society. Arya was told she would possibly give birth to a future High Septon. Alysanne gave birth to a girl that went on to become a Septa and another daughter promised to the Faith who later ran away across the narrow sea to Essos. 

I propose that whatever Queen Arya becomes, she has the skills to manipulate things from the background. Several times while on her journey since escaping KL, she has assumed roles that help her go unnoticed. A Queen consort was what Queen Alysanne technically was, but she still wielded influence over her King and husband despite her position. 

Quote

Though I like your idea of Arya perhaps being forced to accept some of her society's norms when it comes to gender roles, but without giving herself up in the process. Not because I have anything against tomboys (I positively LOVE Brienne) but because it would indeed be a very interesting process to watch and would indeed be a sign of maturity on her part as she accepts that, in the end she will have to work within the society she lives in and the expectations that society places on her. She could grow up into something like a more benevolent version of  Magaret of Anjou.

 

 

I love this topic and it's interesting that you bring it up  

Have you noticed that Arya is already showing signs of these growing changes since arriving to Braavos? She has betrayed a certain bias that offers some insight into the direction she could be headed towards in Winds. 

First there is this admission from Arya:

Some of the women tried to put her in a dress and make her do needlework, but they weren't Lady Smallwood and she was having none of it. - Arya, ASoS

 

Suggesting Lady Smallwood (Ravella from House Swann who told Arya she was pretty) was someone Arya would conform and be a Lady for. How inclined would Arya be if she had a positive female role model move her in the direction you described? You saw how dedicated Arya was to Syrio and everything he taught her she took to heart. Then we see Arya's interest in courtesans and a bias she clearly holds for them that is contrary to her typical views on femininity. The fact that she feels proud in how graceful she can be both in mind and behavior in Mercy chapter is another nod in that direction. 

Again, it’s interesting what Arya thinks of The Satin Palace while begging on the streets completely blind as Beth: 

The Satin Palace with the perfumes of pretty young girls who dreamed of being courtesans. - The Blind Girl

Arya never thinks a single negative thing about these ladies and girls. 

I think her next phase of training will involve learning from a courtesan, either becoming a mermaid under the Merling Queen or with the Black Pearl who Arya has already shown particular interest in. 

 

This moves perfectly into Arya's own flowering and maidenhood. Will she be the same Arya? 

 

 

 

[Philokles]

I don't think Arya ever has anything against traditional femininity. Even in AGOT she wishes that she has Sansa's grace and ability to please Septa Mordane. What she likes about Ravella and the courtesans is their autonomy - that it is they who make the decisions for themselves rather than being reliant on a man. That matters a lot more to her than what they do with it.

I don't see her becoming, for want of a better phrase, a 'girly girl', but she does like some of the more traditional feminine attributes whilst also valuing some traditionally masculine ones. It is not very helpful to see a strict dichotomy between the two - that a character must either be like Sansa or a complete tomboy.

[Orphalesion]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

 

Good point! I wonder why Ned never suggested to Arya that it was enough for her to learn to ACT the lady, when circumstances required it, but otherwise be free to be herself. Just add "ladiness" as another skill she had to learn, like horseback riding, tending wounds, or hunting. Although, in her Faceless Man training and latest, in traveling with the mummers, she's really become familiar with playing the role that's required, while remaining at core Arya of House Stark.

I think that would have been an idea Ned would have introduced slowly and gradually as Arya got older. For now he saw her as a child who to some extend, enjoys freedom from the rigid norms of society. And Ned seems inclined to indulge the whims of his children quite a bit.

39 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

.

I love this topic and it's interesting that you bring it up  

Have you noticed that Arya is already showing signs of these growing changes since arriving to Braavos? She has betrayed a certain bias that offers some insight into the direction she could be headed towards in Winds. 

First there is this admission from Arya:

Some of the women tried to put her in a dress and make her do needlework, but they weren't Lady Smallwood and she was having none of it. - Arya, ASoS

 

Suggesting Lady Smallwood (Ravella from House Swann who told Arya she was pretty) was someone Arya would conform and be a Lady for. How inclined would Arya be if she had a positive female role model move her in the direction you described? You saw how dedicated Arya was to Syrio and everything he taught her she took to heart. Then we see Arya's interest in courtesans and a bias she clearly holds for them that is contrary to her typical views on femininity. The fact that she feels proud in how graceful she can be both in mind and behavior in Mercy chapter is another nod in that direction. 

Again, it’s interesting what Arya thinks of The Satin Palace while begging on the streets completely blind as Beth: 

The Satin Palace with the perfumes of pretty young girls who dreamed of being courtesans. - The Blind Girl

Arya never thinks a single negative thing about these ladies and girls. 

I think her next phase of training will involve learning from a courtesan, either becoming a mermaid under the Merling Queen or with the Black Pearl who Arya has already shown particular interest in. 

 

This moves perfectly into Arya's own flowering and maidenhood. Will she be the same Arya?

You give me a lot to think about Yes a good role model/teacher would work wonders. Would be interesting to see who that might be.

I never actually had the impression that Arya specifically looks down on femininity (in the books at least, she does a bit on the show imho). She is, after all, envious of Sansa for being able to do all the ladylike things, not looking down on her because of it. And when she learns that Joffrey chose to combine the symbols of house Baratheon and Lannister she thinks it is right because "the mother is important as well" even when that mother is someone she absolutely hates.

Compare that with Cersei who IS a very loud misogynist.

With Arya it's more, at least I see it that way, that traditionally feminine things just don't come easy or natural to her, at least not at her current age. And thinking about it, yes, I agree. She didn't have particularly good role models until now, particularly not Septa Mordane.

I always had the theory that if House Stark hadn't fallen Arya would eventually have grown up into a second Lyanna, maybe she still can.

11 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

 

I don't see her becoming, for want of a better phrase, a 'girly girl', but she does like some of the more traditional feminine attributes whilst also valuing some traditionally masculine ones. It is not very helpful to see a strict dichotomy between the two - that a character must either be like Sansa or a complete tomboy.

I don't think anybody is advocating a dichotomy or that Arya will become a pinnacle of Westerosi femininity. But that she will find more balance between her martial interests and the femininity society expects of her, like Lyanna. That she will learn that "ladylike" things are just another useful skill.

[Violet]

  Arya is a foil to her sister Sansa, they mirror each other and both of them carry some aspects of their aunt Lyanna. They also foil another set of sisters, Catelyn and Lysa, considering how they were both compared to each other. Lysa being jealous of Catelyn's appearance just like Arya wishes to have Sansa's grace and beauty and Sansa was jealous of Aryas freedom and how she could be friends with everyone. Sansa felt close to Margery, because she is what Sansa wishes to have as a sister, funny thing Margery is what Arya would become if events in the books didn't happened.

 Honestly, I don't see her as a Queen, she is more suited to be a King or a spy, in my opinion she and Sansa will become Wardens of the North and prove, you don't have be feminine or a tomboy to be powerful.

[zandru]

40 minutes ago, Violet said:

Sansa was jealous of Aryas freedom and how she could be friends with everyone

I never saw Sansa as being "jealous" of Arya. More like "deploring". Sansa repeatedly described Arya's "freedom" as "wickedness." She looked with contempt at Arya associating with, talking with, making friends with the lower orders like stableboys and tradesmen. And Sansa has to remember that what messed everything up between impending Queen Sansa and Crown Prince Joffrey was Arya playing with a - gasp!!! - mere butcher's boy. Remember, Sansa even down on her half brother Jon because he's a bastard.

No, the way Sansa thinks it, everything Arya does is bad. Jealous? I don't think so.

[GloubieBoulga]

2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

A Queen that has some interesting parallels with Arya - who was married to the King who also happens to be her brother. Queen Alysanne Targaryen was 12 years old when she became Queen, she became the King's most trusted Councillor, a builder of castle(s) and had the love of the smallfolk. She was a hunter, an archer and a free spirit. Not to mention she also shares similar views to Arya regarding women's importance and status in Westerosi society. Arya was told she would possibly give birth to a future High Septon. Alysanne gave birth to a girl that went on to become a Septa and another daughter promised to the Faith who later ran away across the narrow to Essos. 

Heh, it could be pretty funny that Arya finishes with Tyrion as a new Jaehaerys I, and that Sansa finishes as Gendry's wife (all credits to Jaime ^^), queen of orphans ! 

Frankly, I'm very curious about an encounter between Arya and Tyrion, even if for the moment I prefer bet on Sansa-Tyrion as a couple after the "Dawn"

[a black swan]

48 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Heh, it could be pretty funny that Arya finishes with Tyrion as a new Jaehaerys I, and that Sansa finishes as Gendry's wife (all credits to Jaime ^^), queen of orphans ! 

Frankly, I'm very curious about an encounter between Arya and Tyrion, even if for the moment I prefer bet on Sansa-Tyrion as a couple after the "Dawn"

Interesting. Care to explain a little more about all of this? 

[GloubieBoulga]

11 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Interesting. Care to explain a little more about all of this? 

Well, about an encounter between Arya and Tyrion : 

- both are actually in Essos. I know, Braavos is very, very far from Meereen, and Westeros is nearer, but in Essos there is Daenerys, the Mother of dragons and... the Faceless Men were created (according to their legend) by valyrian slavers, as Braavos was. In slaver bay, Daenerys seams to be reconstructing a little empire and she has dragons for that. Euron has the ambition to take at least a dragon (if not the queen dragon too) and I think to build a new empire, perhaps not in Westeros for the beginning, because if you pay little attention, you see that he left at the iron Islandsand at the Shields his concurrents or opponent : it is not to thank them for their non-support nor to buy them : it is to trapp them : they will be isolated against their ennemies; nor he will let Victarion a chance to take a dragon or Dany : as he has already done, Victarion will do the hard and bad labor, and Euron will take the fruits : 

Spoiler

I think the sacrifice in the Forsaken chapter is to obtain specials winds for him and his lieutenants (the rest of the fleet will have the battle with the Redwyne but not Euron), to fly to Meereen. 

In Essos, there is Volantis, whi had few chapters and where the reader learns that slaves are ready to have a rebellion, and where the Rhllor'ist are super actives. At Volantis, there is a Wall, who is a mirror of the Wall in the North : he is huge, he segregates, he is all black, aso... (he seams an evil version of the Wall for what we know yet, but the Wall has his evil part segregating the Wildlings). In Essos, there are the Dothrakis, and Daenerys is actually in Dothraki's sea with Drogon. At Meereen, the Tattered Prince promized to help dany's armies, but he wants Pentos as a price. 

So a huge conquest of Essos from Slavers bay to Pentos, with Volantis as the "center" wouldn't be too surprising. And now, Braavos could fear to fall, or the Faceless Men could receive a demand for Daenerys's or Euron's death, or both. 

Spoiler

Add to this Euron's will to vainquish "all the gods", and the fact that Arya serves the "many-faced god"

On her side, Arya has encountered some dragons. If we don't count Jon Snow, the first time was at the Red Keep, where purchasing the cat Balerion (Rhaenys' cat, and said the bastard or the real king of the Red Keep) she arrived to the crypt where are all the dragon's skeletons. 

When she is with Yoren, when they are trapped by Amory Lorch, remember that Lorch blaze is a chimera (a valyrian mythic animal; let's say it the mythical version of the little venomous and real animal) and that the fire in the Riverlands are his special mark. When Arya escapes, the text describes the fire as "red wings" "beating at her back" (Arya IV, ACoK). After that, she stays long time at Harrenhal, the castle burnt with dragonfire, and she plays the part of the slaves. There is also the ex-Jaqen at Old Town, and the fact that the facelessmen probably received a dragon egg from Euron to pay Balon's death. At the beginning, I took these elements as clues that she could ride a dragon in the future, but it is really conter-intuitive : Arya is affraid by the dragons and the text places her always in the side of those who are victims of dragons and dragonlords. If Arya must encounter dragons in the future - as I think she will - it will be as dragonlord and/or dragon killer. 

Here are some speculations : at Harrenhal, Jaqen offers her 3 death, and I like speculate that these 3 death mimic 3 futures death she will give herself as "incarnation" of the Many-faced god :

Chiswyck falls => will Euron try to fly and really fall and die, as the "dreamers" that Bran see's in his coma ? Euron is obsessed by the fly, and his brother Balon is dead falling in the sea (and Euron had paid FM for that).

Weese eated by the dog he has as his child => Daenerys killed by his own dragon (Drogon) and finally Drogon killed by an arrow ?  

Jaqen identity definitly abandoned => Arya herself will abandon the identity she had to kill Euron and Dany, and perhaps keep the real Arya's face

Of course, in that speculative scenario, Euron's death would permit to Dany accomplish what she must accomplish as Azor ahai, and "encounter" Jon Snow; and Dany's death would arrive after the "accomplishement"

Huh... if nobody is lost : for all these reasons, I think Tyrion and Arya will meet together. But I really have no idea of what can happen between the two. 

 

On the other side, Arya is strongly linked to Gendry, and she even developp with him same complicity that she had with Jon. Robert wanted to marry his son with Ned's daughter : Joffrey isn't his son, but Gendry is, and he is bastard. So Robert and Ned wish could accomplish with Arya and Gendry. Arya could be a queen like Nymeria : a really queen of orphans. No throne nor crown, but ironically real power on people ^^

In Sansa's arc, there are a lot of links with Tyrion's arc : the Eyrie, for example; the fact that LF wants absolutely that Tyrion dies; one time she think that she prefer marry again to Tyrion than marry to sweet Robin; and a lot of other little details (like the gargoyles in the Winterfell of snow, that LF can't exactly reproduct; and when Tyrion appears (and speaks) for the first time in first Jon's chapter (I don't count the arrival at Winterfell), Jon sees him like a gargoyle). And the Rhoyne, where Tyrion travels, is a mother who has lost her children - the ruined cities - and she has 2 daughters, one turbulent, one sweet ^^

 

According to the fact that Sansa and Arya are two faces of the same coin, why Sansa couldn't for example find Arya's wolf and "adopt" her ? Why couldn't she meet with Gendry and really fall in love with and/or take him as her "prince promised" (he is sane, courageous and loyal). After all, Sansa and Arya have already shared Sandor Clegane. Why not other characters (during a bit time - in fact before the reading of the Aeron's chapter "the Forsaken" - I even thought that Arya would be the one to "kill" LF and his lies^^) ? Through LF, Alayne could be heir of Harrenhal, so Sansa/Gendry is a possible way.

And finally, why coudn't Arya marry Tyrion (but I confess that the way seams very hard before Tyrion can be king, but not impossible : in AGOT, he has a royal shadow, and in the first chapter where we see him live as a character) ? 

 

[Luddagain]

I think that Gendry will be proclaimed as Stannis's heir and will inherit the iron throne. After all if you exclude the actual Targs, (Dany, Aegon, children of Aerion and the feeble minded girl and any Blackfyres)  Stannis has the best claim and after him Shireen then the bastard sons of Robert. As the eldest son, Gendry WOULD be proclaimed by Stannis. Remember Stannis elevates Davos and gives no great weight to birth. Mind you I think he would first marry Edrik Storm to Shireen, but after her would come Gendry

Gendry is also a true knight - like Duncan the tall, with a genuine committent to doing good. He would make a fine ruler, especially if he has wise councillors eg Arya and maybe Tyrion.

Everyone sees Arya as a psychopathic killer, but if she had been a young man, her deeds would not seem so strange. Compared with Jaime, Sandor etc she is small change. 10 year old Pod kills a man too - to save Tyrion.

[a black swan]

8 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

At the beginning, I took these elements as clues that she could ride a dragon in the future, but it is really conter-intuitive : Arya is affraid by the dragons and the text places her always in the side of those who are victims of dragons and dragonlords. If Arya must encounter dragons in the future - as I think she will - it will be as dragonlord and/or dragon killer. 

Great stuff

Only thing is, the dragon bones no longer frighten her and the next time she sees the dragon skulls they feel like old friends. Arya goes on to wish to see a dragon several times - as recently as her Mercy chapter after noticing the Black Pearl again - a courtesan who also happens to be a Targaryan descendant.  Arya seems fascinated by dragons, but not afraid. 

 

 

[Nevets]

7 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I think that Gendry will be proclaimed as Stannis's heir and will inherit the iron throne. After all if you exclude the actual Targs, (Dany, Aegon, children of Aerion and the feeble minded girl and any Blackfyres)  Stannis has the best claim and after him Shireen then the bastard sons of Robert. As the eldest son, Gendry WOULD be proclaimed by Stannis. Remember Stannis elevates Davos and gives no great weight to birth. Mind you I think he would first marry Edrik Storm to Shireen, but after her would come Gendry

Gendry is also a true knight - like Duncan the tall, with a genuine committent to doing good. He would make a fine ruler, especially if he has wise councillors eg Arya and maybe Tyrion.

Everyone sees Arya as a psychopathic killer, but if she had been a young man, her deeds would not seem so strange. Compared with Jaime, Sandor etc she is small change. 10 year old Pod kills a man too - to save Tyrion.

First you suggest that Stannis will choose Gendry based solely on his birth, then say that Stannis doesn't put great weight on birth.  Which is it?  To be honest,, the only thing Gendry has going for him is that his mother once slept with Robert Baratheon and got pregnant as a result.  Come to think of it he doesn't even know himself that he's Robert's bastard, much less have any proof.  He has no education, experience or much else.  And during his time with Arya, if he has any great leadership skills or intelligence, he certainly didn't show it.  At least Davos had significant accomplishments when Stannis elevated him.

Podrick (who is 12, by the way) killed a man to save Tyrion.  Arya's killings in defense of herself and others aren't what trouble readers.  It's her killings of people like Dareon

and Raff as Mercy

that bother readers.  Self-defense is one thing.  Killing people because you don't like them is quite another.  I will say, though, that while I am troubled by the path that she is on, I expect her to turn away before she goes too far.  Her moral compass may be shaky, but it is not gone. 

[zandru]

50 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Killing people because you don't like them is quite another.

Well really, it's beyond "not liking." If this were the 20th century, Raff would be wanted for war crimes, crimes against humanity, murder, torture, and probably rape (including statutory). It's not like he's without sin, and Arya's "dislike" for the Sweetling is based on actual crimes the man has committed in her presence. She even has witnesses (in Gendry and Hot Pie, at least). Also, Arya's execution of the renegade Night's Watch guy in Braavos was based on what she had observed her own father do, and she clearly felt it was simple justice, not revenge or some kind of joy-killing.

I agree with you about Gendry. There is no way he'll be declared King. Who would favor this? The Lannisters want their own offspring on the Iron Throne (and have merely adopted the "Baratheon" name for that purpose.) Daenerys Targaryon and Aegon Targaryon (or Blackfyre?) consider any Baratheon to be of the family of the Usurper; they want the throne for themselves. Jon Connington is with Aegon, and was always a Targ supporter. Dorne is for the Targaryons. The other Baratheon (let's not forget Stannis, like EVERYONE always has; poor middle child!!) is waging a war to claim the throne for himself. And further north, they frankly have better things to do than indulge in sothron games; Winter has come.

Gendry Waters(?) doesn't figure anywhere in this. Nor is he a romantic interest for Arya, and thus not a potential Queen's Consort. She always regarded him as a kind of surrogate older brother, and his dismay when he left her to join the Brotherhood w/o Banners was because she had been thinking of him as "family" - not "flame."

Nor should Gendry be considered a "knight", regardless of Beric Dondarion's magic touch. As Sandor Clegane sarcastically noted, Gendry's less qualified for knighthood than his horse. The horse, at least, was trained in battle, is highly skilled, and has extensive experience. Gendry can hit things with a hammer, and not a "warhammer" at that. One hopes Gendry will survive the series, but at best, he could become a middle class merchant artisan.

[Brother Seamus]

I just read the first and last pages, so maybe it was already mentioned, but the best evidence for Jon and Arya getting together is the GRRM letter to his publisher setting out the broad plot points, before he even wrote the first book. Arya and Jon hooking up based on the revelation Jon isn't her brother was part of the plan from the beginning.

That said, my tentative prediction is that GRRM abandons that idea, and Arya ends up having a role somewhere in the neighborhood of a combination of Bloodraven and Varys, a hand/master of whisperers/J. Edgar Hoover/head of MI5 type of character; head of internal security for the Jon Snow/Targaryen/Stark regime; the Lavrenty Beria of westeros.

 

[Lord Wraith]

14 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I think that Gendry will be proclaimed as Stannis's heir and will inherit the iron throne. After all if you exclude the actual Targs, (Dany, Aegon, children of Aerion and the feeble minded girl and any Blackfyres)  Stannis has the best claim and after him Shireen then the bastard sons of Robert. As the eldest son, Gendry WOULD be proclaimed by Stannis. Remember Stannis elevates Davos and gives no great weight to birth. Mind you I think he would first marry Edrik Storm to Shireen, but after her would come Gendry

Gendry is also a true knight - like Duncan the tall, with a genuine committent to doing good. He would make a fine ruler, especially if he has wise councillors eg Arya and maybe Tyrion.

Everyone sees Arya as a psychopathic killer, but if she had been a young man, her deeds would not seem so strange. Compared with Jaime, Sandor etc she is small change. 10 year old Pod kills a man too - to save Tyrion.

Why no love for Edric Storm?

[sweetsunray]

13 hours ago, zandru said:

Nor is he a romantic interest for Arya, and thus not a potential Queen's Consort. She always regarded him as a kind of surrogate older brother, and his dismay when he left her to join the Brotherhood w/o Banners was because she had been thinking of him as "family" - not "flame."

So,

• thinking of his eye color as "deep blue"
• noticing how he smells of soap lying next to her behind a bush while hiding from Gold Cloaks
• studying his face so often that she knows what each facial expression of his means
• spying on him to see his muscles work and think how strong he is
• totally liking it that he finishes her thoughts like Jon could
• thinking of him as "dangerous" (aka thrilling and exciting)
• being uncomfortable when he smells her and says she looks nice in a dress
• caring that he doesn't like Ned Dayne
• having a hissyfit over him suggesting he might ring Bella's bells
• feeling betrayed (more than disppointed or sad) over him choosing to separate from her
• thinking of going back to the BwB to be like the Fawn beside Gendry and considering that a fantasy more in line with the romantic stories Sansa prefers...

Yeah, right. She only thinks of him as an "older brother"? She knows he's not actual family, but she wants him to be her family. Only way that works is if they marry, as husband and wife form a family, while not being actually related. 

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

So,

• thinking of his eye color as "deep blue"
• noticing how he smells of soap lying next to her behind a bush while hiding from Gold Cloaks
• studying his face so often that she knows what each facial expression of his means
• spying on him to see his muscles work and think how strong he is
• totally liking it that he finishes her thoughts like Jon could
• thinking of him as "dangerous" (aka thrilling and exciting)
• being uncomfortable when he smells her and says she looks nice in a dress
• caring that he doesn't like Ned Dayne
• having a hissyfit over him suggesting he might ring Bella's bells
• feeling betrayed (more than disppointed or sad) over him choosing to separate from her
• thinking of going back to the BwB to be like the Fawn beside Gendry and considering that a fantasy more in line with the romantic stories Sansa prefers...

Yeah, right. She only thinks of him as an "older brother"? She knows he's not actual family, but she wants him to be her family. Only way that works is if they marry, as husband and wife form a family, while not being actually related. 

She clearly had a crush on him, but I don't see him as a long term romantic interest. She barely thinks of Gendry in AFFC and not at all in ADWD.

[Orphalesion]

On 01/03/2017 at 2:44 PM, Luddagain said:

Everyone sees Arya as a psychopathic killer, but if she had been a young man, her deeds would not seem so strange. Compared with Jaime, Sandor etc she is small change. 10 year old Pod kills a man too - to save Tyrion.

Bullpoop.

If Arya was a boy and was still going around reciting her creepy revenge "prayer" each night before falling asleep and joined an assassin's guild that's blindly devoted to the act of killing I'd find that just as unnerving and uninteresting.

You are also assuming that everybody excuses Sandor and/or Jaime and not taking circumstances into account.

Personally I find Sandor pretty pathetic, he played Joffrey's bloodhound, killing children for the little psychopath and only stopped because he wanted into Sansa's small clothes.

While Jaime has been on a redemption quest since he has been released by Catelyn. A redemption quest which he thinks is impossible anyways and still he's trying.

And Podrick, as you write, killed in defense of somebody important to him.

Arya meanwhile appoints herself Jury, Judge and Executioner when she kills Dareon, for the sole crime of breaking the batshit Night's Watch vows. She is not a judge and has no business doing that. And NO I wasn't fond of Ned doing the same either in the first book, but at least he had juridical power to do so. With that she is enforcing her own personal code of living on others and that's a bit hypocritical from someone who herself rebels against the norms of her society.