Arya will become Queen

[Nevets]

9 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Pretty much all the nobility and even their bastards are. Walder Rivers was sent to judge cases. If he has the right to, then there is no reason why the daughter/sister of Lord Stark (and as far as she knows, rightful owner of Winterfell) should not.

Actually, even if she were the Lady of Winterfell (she isn't) and lived there (she doesn't), she couldn't judge anything.  She's 11 years old.  ELEVEN!  She can't do anything without a regent signing off. And even Ned couldn't have executed anyone in Braavos.

In any case, I am not a fan of vigilante action, and I have a big problem with an 11 year old child killing basically anybody who is not a serious and direct threat.  I don't think her murders make her a bad person, necessarily, but I do find them troubling.  While she is one of my favorites, if she goes too much farther down this path, she won't be.  But I doubt that will happen.  I think she will leave the FM and pull out of her spiral before too long.

I still can't see the love for Gendry.  I agree that she had a crush on him, but think that she has moved on.  In any case, I can't see a basis for a long-term relationship.  They have vastly different backgrounds, life experiences, and education levels.  Other than their Riverlands experiences (and much of that was separated at Harrenhal), the have nothing in common.

[Philokles]

44 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Actually, even if she were the Lady of Winterfell (she isn't) and lived there (she doesn't), she couldn't judge anything.  She's 11 years old.  ELEVEN!  She can't do anything without a regent signing off. And even Ned couldn't have executed anyone in Braavos.

I wonder where Dany's regent got to. And Robb's for that matter. Or maybe you stop needing a regent when you are mature enough to make decisions for yourself, even if it's technically before you come of age.

As I said above, nobody seems to care about whether they have any legal right to act internationally.

 

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

In any case, I am not a fan of vigilante action, and I have a big problem with an 11 year old child killing basically anybody who is not a serious and direct threat.  I don't think her murders make her a bad person, necessarily, but I do find them troubling.  While she is one of my favorites, if she goes too much farther down this path, she won't be.  But I doubt that will happen.  I think she will leave the FM and pull out of her spiral before too long.

I find it strange that anyone would think that one of the very few people who actually cares about justice in this world is 'troubling' for doing so. Let alone someone who is not self appointed as they are high in the succession to rule the North.  Or at least no more self appointed than everyone else in the feudal system. Out of interest, do you condemn Daenerys for taking it upon herself to try and end slavery?

[The Prince who was not pro]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Actually, even if she were the Lady of Winterfell (she isn't) and lived there (she doesn't), she couldn't judge anything.  She's 11 years old.  ELEVEN!  She can't do anything without a regent signing off. And even Ned couldn't have executed anyone in Braavos.

In any case, I am not a fan of vigilante action, and I have a big problem with an 11 year old child killing basically anybody who is not a serious and direct threat.  I don't think her murders make her a bad person, necessarily, but I do find them troubling.  While she is one of my favorites, if she goes too much farther down this path, she won't be.  But I doubt that will happen.  I think she will leave the FM and pull out of her spiral before too long.

I still can't see the love for Gendry.  I agree that she had a crush on him, but think that she has moved on.  In any case, I can't see a basis for a long-term relationship.  They have vastly different backgrounds, life experiences, and education levels.  Other than their Riverlands experiences (and much of that was separated at Harrenhal), the have nothing in common.

Where does Arya fall in love with Gendry?

[Lilypad]

On 2/26/2017 at 10:09 AM, Gertrude said:

What I really think is that we need the next book real damn quick.

I'm sure we all agree on this. We are looking to hard for meaning in any and everything while we wait. 

I don't see Arya as queen in her own right or as the wife of a king. It holds none of her interests. I also find her to be too selfish to rule a kingdom.

[a black swan]

5 minutes ago, Lilypad said:

I'm sure we all agree on this. We are looking to hard for meaning in any and everything while we wait. 

I don't see Arya as queen in her own right or as the wife of a king. It holds none of her interests. I also find her to be too selfish to rule a kingdom.

Do elaborate. 

[Damon_Tor]

On 2/25/2017 at 11:26 PM, TyrionTLannister said:

there's a lot of foreshadowing that Jon and Dany will marry and have a child.

 

On 2/26/2017 at 5:15 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't know where you get those foreshadowings from.

It's difficult to interpret the House of the Undying prophecy in any other way.

[Lilypad]

For me it's mostly her list. It consumes her every thought for months/years. Her need for vengeance is the most important thing to her. Also, if she managed to kill everyone on her list it leaves the kingdom on shaky ground which is good for no one.

Then at the House of Black and White when she is supposed to give up all of her possessions and devote herself to becoming "no one" she can't do it and hides "Needle" under the steps in case she has the desire to get back to her vengeance.

[a black swan]

29 minutes ago, Lilypad said:

For me it's mostly her list. It consumes her every thought for months/years. Her need for vengeance is the most important thing to her. Also, if she managed to kill everyone on her list it leaves the kingdom on shaky ground which is good for no one.

Then at the House of Black and White when she is supposed to give up all of her possessions and devote herself to becoming "no one" she can't do it and hides "Needle" under the steps in case she has the desire to get back to her vengeance.

Wow. OK, where to start? 

I dunno if the bolded part is just an exaggeration or a serious statement? It's demonstrably false. There are too many quotes to post. But to putbit simply: When Arya had the chance to offer up her prayer list to the MFG by following Jaqen and learning how to be a Faceless Man... do you recall Arya's choice? Finding her family. 

Most of the people on her list are there for actions committed against others. Not Arya. So this isn't even self-serving. 

Majority of the people on her list have died by other means. But the Kingdom was already unstable before her list and would be after it. 

Needle was saved because it represented her last real link to Arya Stark and things most important to her. It's the most obvious sign that Arya will never become No One and will return to Needle (Arya Stark) and her home. 

As shown with the Mercy chapter and others: Arya doesn't need Needle to cross people off her list. And when she did kill the NW deserter - what she got in return was a reward and not punishment. 

 

Lady Evolett did a great summation on Arya's name and the trajectory her story could go in:

Quote

 

In Buddhist teachings, The Noble (Pali: ariyo aṭṭhaṅgikomaggo, Sanskrit:āryāṣṭāṅgamārga), originally taught by Buddha, is a path which leads the practitioner toward self-awakening and ultimately liberates him or her from the cycle of rebirth and death. It incorporates methods designed to develop insights into the true nature of reality and to eliminate greed, desire, hatred and delusion. The denial of self is a key component in this process. GRRM has borrowed aspects of this concept – it is the underlying principle behind Arya’s training in the House of Black and White as well as the idea of becoming ‘faceless’ or ‘no one’.

In Buddhism, the self is seen as an eternal substance that persists beyond death. Eliminating the self (or becoming No One, having no-self) is thus essential to breaking the cycle of reincarnation. The Sanskrit term ‘arya sacca’ means ‘noble truths’, the Four Nobel Truths, a doctrine on how things are seen by a Buddha, how things really are when seen correctly (The "true seeing" Syrio taught Arya), the truthful way of seeing. ‘Arya’ itself means: noble, valuable, not ordinary and the Aryas are the noble ones, those who have attained the fruits of the pathleading to higher wisdom and enlightenment. Arya is walking the Patternmaker’s Maze.

She let their footsteps be her guide, but when they made their descent she counted. She knew the counts of all the steps by heart. Under the temple was a maze of vaults and tunnels where even men with two good eyes were often lost, but the blind girl had learned every inch of it, and she had her stick to help her find her way should her memory falter. - ADWD, The Blind Girl

 

Arya's development isn't complete yet. But you see where this going. 

[Winter's Cold]

51 minutes ago, Lilypad said:

For me it's mostly her list. It consumes her every thought for months/years. Her need for vengeance is the most important thing to her. Also, if she managed to kill everyone on her list it leaves the kingdom on shaky ground which is good for no one.

How would removing Cersei leave the kingdom on shaky ground? She is directly responsible for the current state of Westeros due to her cuckoldry of King Robert. She is also further destabilizing the kingdom by empowering the Faith and attacking the Tyrells. 

Other than Cersei, the only other person of political significance on Arya's list is Walder Frey. If Walder Frey dies, then that would lead to internal conflict within the Frey House but I don't think it's something that would leave the kingdom on shaky ground.

Also, her list is not everything to her. Her family and loved ones are everything to her. After her father died, she tried to get to her brother and her mother but they were butchered at the Red Wedding. Then she tries to get to her aunt Lysa in the Eyrie but that doesn't work out either. Finally she tries to go to the Wall to get to Jon but the ship captain won't take her there.

Arya has consistently tried to reunite with her family members during her entire journey and she has been unsuccessful every time. What Arya wants most is not vengeance but to reunite with her family members.

[Lilypad]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Way to make the new comers feel welcome.

 

[JonSnow4President]

 

58 minutes ago, Lilypad said:

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Way to make the new comers feel welcome.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbxLbDdfhbY

Country warning.

[teej6]

5 hours ago, Lilypad said:

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Way to make the new comers feel welcome.

 

I'm sorry you feel unwelcome but if you make a statement like Arya hid needle under the steps "in case she has the desire to get back to her revenge" you are going to get several responses opposing that statement because it is factually incorrect. This is the passage from the books describing why Arya kept Needle: 

"At the water ... All but Needle. She stood on the end of the dock, pale and goosefleshed and shivering in the fog. In her hand, Needle seemed to whisper to her. Stick them with the pointy end, it said, and, don’t tell Sansa! Mikken’s mark was on the blade. It’s just a sword. If she needed a sword, there were a hundred under the temple. Needle was too small to be a proper sword, it was hardly more than a toy. She’d been a stupid little girl when Jon had it made for her. “It’s just a sword,” she said, aloud this time . . . . . . but it wasn’t. Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes. Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain’s men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father’s gods, the gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can’t have this. 

Needle to Arya is NOT about revenge, it represents her identity as Arya Stark, her home, her parents, her siblings, and above all, it represents Jon's love for her. This is why she does not want to give up Needle. And as long as Arya has Needle she will not lose herself completely and become no one. Arya will find herself again in the end and her pack and Needle will be a big part of her regaining her identity. 

If your impression of what Needle means to Arya is coming from the show then that is understandable cause the show cannot portray Arya's inner thoughts and people are bound to misinterpret.  But in the books, we are clearly told what Arya is thinking and she is not thinking about revenge, or her list, or death when she hides Needle, instead she is thinking of family, of home, and of love.  

[GhostNymeria]

10 hours ago, Lilypad said:

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Way to make the new comers feel welcome.

 

Sorry you feel unwelcome, but have you been on an internet forum before? Everyone here have different opinions and interpretations of the books. Your arguments will be met by counterarguments.

[Meera of Tarth]

On 26/2/2017 at 9:03 PM, sweetsunray said:

I can see Arya as a queen, but only in one particular situation: an exodus queen, leading thousands of sails with survivors westward to find a new continent.

As for some book quotes cited:

"Already in love": while this can be a foreshadowing quote, it is more a foreshadowing of Arya as character in relation to love, rather than Arya already in love with Jon. At the time Arya falls in love with her wolf puppy at first sight. This could imply that when Arya falls in love with a boy/young man, it will be love at first sight. The only boy I can see that apply to is Gendry. Because if Arya is a love-at-first-sight kinda girl, and you recognize she is attracted to Gendry (in a manner appropriate for her age), then he can't be a foil for Jon at all.

Giving Needle: Jon is NOT giving his own sword to Arya. He's giving Arya her own sword. So, if you want to see that in any sexual context, it means that Jon empowers Arya to a) have her own symbolic balls b ) enables her to make up her own mind, choose whomever she wants for herself. When a man gives his "own sword" to a girl/woman, he's symbolically pledging faithfulness to that girl. And if Jon giving Needle to Arya was to be taken that way, then he wouldn't have slept with Ygritte, nor daydream of children with Val.

I find difficulties in seeing Arya ending as a Queen, but other things from the books have been more surprising so it could happen, and the more I think of it, reading this thread, the least strange it feels. But the example you put of the exodus Queen, I think  that would fit her narrative very well.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 5/3/2017 at 3:58 AM, Damon_Tor said:

It's difficult to interpret the House of the Undying prophecy in any other way.

I still don't know where you get that from.

[Damon_Tor]

11 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I still don't know where you get that from.

The "Bride of Fire" quatrain is likely predictive of the three fathers of Dany's three children (which is why Hizdahr is excluded), and the third stanza is a clear reference to Jon Snow. If you have a different interpretation I'd be interested to hear it.

[Arya-Jon]

On 3/4/2017 at 4:55 PM, sweetsunray said:

Where does it say that POV characters can only end up together? Where does it say that only POV characters will be some type of ruler?

You have a valid point. However, if Grrm does have a endgame king or endgame kings, he would not like to make the same mistake he criticized Tolkien for.

Quote

Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles? -QUOTE FROM GRRM

Can he provide detailed info without a POV from the ruler. Yes, he can. But it would still be a bit incomplete as you dont know his motivations.

Further he has always talked about his endgame being the same since 1991. So it would be tough to pair that up with Gendry being the endgame king.

I do agree that it is possible that Gendry ends up being king of some small kingdom which is not as significant as being king like Aragorn was. But if he is the significant endgame king , then I would expect to see a lot of his POVs.

And honestly, Arya's main priority is protecting her pack, her wolves. So the bond between Jon and Arya is not necessarily of lovers , but more of impossiblity/unwillingness of staying away from each other and the desire to be just together (from Arya's perspective)  If they do marry it would be because they would go mad (After all the carnage) without each other.  

As far as Gendry is concerned. If Arya was a normal person, that would be the route to go. But she is different in her connection to her family. Being a real wolf through her warging. Do real wolves marry stags? Her family and especially Jon being a major motivation and one of the things preventing her from going mad and thinking only about venegance. Its her desire to see Jon, which provides her a goal other than venegance . She still hopes to somehow reach the wall. I dont think this intense longing would ever go away. If Jon dies, she would wreak venegance on those who killed him and just ride away rather than going with Gendry. 

But again same story different interpretations so lets see how it pans out :).

[sweetsunray]

30 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Can he provide detailed info without a POV from the ruler. Yes, he can. But it would still be a bit incomplete as you dont know his motivations.

Ah, so you have difficulty comprehending Tywin's and Joffrey's and Robert's and Stannis's motivations so far about their political

 

30 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Further he has always talked about his endgame being the same since 1991. So it would be tough to pair that up with Gendry being the endgame king.

IIRC he says he had the same end-game since 1994 or 1996. Perhaps dig up the SSM for that.

Gendry appears in aGoT, definitely in relation to Baratheon lineage, even though he's not even a recognized bastard. And the tourney has a particular scene with Renly's antlers getting broken up, that he hands to Sandor who then tosses it into the crowd, and Renly making them peaceful. Sounds like a possible hint of one of the Baratheon descendants ending up fighting amongts the common people through the help of Sandor and becoming someone the common folk follow. Which is roughly what happens. Gendry begs to become a member of the BwB after Sandor's trial.

I'm not saying it will happen, or that it should happen. But I don't see it as easily dismissable as you seem to think it is.

30 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

And honestly, Arya's main priority is protecting her pack, her wolves. So the bond between Jon and Arya is not necessarily of lovers , but more of impossiblity/unwillingness of staying away from each other and the desire to be just together (from Arya's perspective)  If they do marry it would be because they would go mad (After all the carnage) without each other.

Sure, wolves have tight sibling relations, but the females in heat tend to pick strangers for partners, especially when they start a new pack. Neither of them are "going mad" without each other now. So why would they in the future. And I find that a horrible idea - people marrying to prevent going mad. That's not a love or affectionate bond, but pretty much toxic.

 

30 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

As far as Gendry is concerned. If Arya was a normal person, that would be the route to go. But she is different in her connection to her family. Being a real wolf through her warging. Do real wolves marry stags? Her family and especially Jon being a major motivation and one of the things preventing her from going mad and thinking only about venegance. Its her desire to see Jon, which provides her a goal other than venegance . She still hopes to somehow reach the wall. I dont think this intense longing would ever go away. If Jon dies, she would wreak venegance on those who killed him and just ride away rather than going with Gendry. 

Oh please! More of the "Arya is abnormal human being!" If you go by that reasoning of "real wolves" we get into sick Cersei-Jaime crap about lions. They are humans, not wolves, not stags, and there are layers of other animals in there too. Humans get it on with another human. Apparently a symbolic wolf can finish the sentences of a symbolic stag/bull/bear, and thus can perfectly bond in a typical human fashion with another human being.

Arya isn't "mad" and isn't going mad. Arya has a desire to reunite with the only family she believes is left to her. And Arya seeks more than vengeance. She seeks justice, albeit a very deadly justice. She doesn't go on a rampage against people she's not sure of how they are involved in doing harm, and not just for her family but for other people as well. Didn't she desire to see Robb and her mother too, Bran and Rickon, until she learned they were dead?She didn't hope to reach the wall until after the Red Wedding. It's normal to long to see her brother again. And it's highly emotionally intelligent to try and seek justice. No need to make it into some "she'll go mad without him" reasoning.

[Arya-Jon]

@sweetsunray My other argument is based on direwolves. Reed in one of his greendreams says that direwolves will last for some more time (direwolves will outlast them all if I remember correctly). Summer may die in the books as his name is summer. So either he will live the longest and see summer come after winter and spring. Or he will die very soon. As soon as the winds of winter start blowing. My educated guess in on the latter.  

So if direwolves are to outlast them all, they need someone to breed, right? As of now the only two direwolves that probably will survive the longest are Ghost and Nymeria, assuming that Summer dies as predicted and Shaggydog dies too. So if I understand their genetics correctly , direwolves do not mate with normal wolves. A reason why Nymeria never allows anyone to mate with her, maybe? So they have to for survival's sake mate with each other . It is incest. But is the same incest the first of our species carried out. If that happens, can you consider the feelings Arya and Jon will go through? They control them. But there are also times when they do things without their permission. So how will they feel when the intercourse is happening. Its a dirty way for them to connect. But Grrm has been gross often. I dont think this is past him.

You seem to be misunderstanding my point. I never said kings have to have POVs . I am just saying the endgame king like Aragorn would be properly fleshed out . As to your other point, atleast Jon is a bastard recognized by the father (its a lie of Ned but still). Gendry's situation in that sense is much worse than Edric Storm or Jon who have both remained bastards, but with their father's open recognition. So if people have to rally behind a bastard, it would be unlikely to be him.  Talking about the show is not fine here. But in general, Dany will be more likely to recognize Edric Storm when she finds him in Dragonstone, or wherever his boat went than Gendry  Gendry being recognized as a bastard and the noblemen accepting the same is very tough as I see it.

[Arya-Jon]

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

 

Oh please! More of the "Arya is abnormal human being!" If you go by that reasoning of "real wolves" we get into sick Cersei-Jaime crap about lions. Arya isn't going mad.

You know, I dont mean Arya to be abnormal in a bad way. I meant her abnormality as in she is a warg and her tendency to think like a wolf, behave like a real wolf even. She is not a fake wolf , ie a wolf only with wolf as a banner. Her consiousness is merged with an actual wolf. 

I was not calling her abnormal because of her tendency of vengeance.

All people seek vengeance.  I just wanted highlight how important family is when you go through the ravages of war. Especially for a girl of 12. And because of her intense connnection to her wolfishness (in the books and  not in the show), she will mostly see people like Bran and Jon as her  main pack. 

PS Dont underestimate Grrm and his ability to create trouble for his POVs and keep their heart in conflict.