Academy Awards 2017 - Oscar Night: In the Pale Moonlight

[The Killer Snark]

1 hour ago, Week said:

Also at investigating things like Pizzagate on twitter (purportedly, one of the first investigators of the child sex ring in the basement of a pizza joint with no basement). Turns out it was much ado about nothing (KS pro-tip).

I'm completely ignoring polishgenius.  But has anyone seen anything I've said in this thread that suggests racism and misogyny? And misogny? One of my favourite films last year was by a female director. In fact, scrap that, because I'd been referring to Andrea Arnold's American Honey, but just realised Toni Erdmann was also written and directed by a woman, and for my money that was the best film of 2016. I tend to go and see movies based on what actress whose movies I generally go and see as opposed to having favourite actors. Since your comments are also off topic, Week, when I mentioned Pizzagate before, I also mentioned that I didn't take it seriously. I'd been alerted to it becoming a topic among those covering the Podesta leaks before a number of people jumped on the bandgwagon. There was no concrete evidence to it. I said so the last and only time I ever mentioned it. I have been clear on that. I'm ignoring Dr Pepper's comments also. Now, none of this is on topic, so I'll get back on topic before anyone else comes out with further personality based attacks.

The controversy among "progressives" concerning La La Land, regarding white people being presented as the saviours of jazz, and the main black character being a 'sellout', to me, is a misrepresentation of the movie. But when one thinks of popular black music now one tends to think of modern R and B and hip hop. Jazz has died a death among black music audiences generally, in not just my opinion, over a period of decades. It's my belief that it appeals more now to white music journalists as opposed to a black audience. And this is entirely demonstrable when you look at modern music. It is not a contentious statement, or in any way a partisan one. 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I dunno, if someone called me something that I disagree with or thought was wrong, I'd (1) ask how they came to that conclusion and (2) endeavor to stop being that thing I was called instead of doubling down on the rhetoric that lead to it.  I mean, seems pretty simple to me.  But, in my book it's worse to actually be something than to be called something.  For example, lots of people are bizarrely scared of being called racist instead of actually being, ya know, racist.  

It appears you are very adamant about discussing this despite your quoting a mod warning against it.  My inbox is always open should you wish to change your stripes or learn why I perceive your stripes as such.

No thanks, you've worn your ignorance on your sleeve here for all to see. I know who I am, thanks. Don't need you to provide that information for me. You'd do well to take your own advice here, methinks. Take a look in the mirror and try to glean some small measure of comprehension as to why so many people on this board react to you in a negative way. After a while I'd think you'd recognize this as a "you" problem. Peace.

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No thanks, you've worn your ignorance on your sleeve here for all to see. I know who I am, thanks. Don't need you to provide that information for me. You'd do well to take your own advice here, methinks. Take a look in the mirror and try to glean some small measure of comprehension as to why so many people on this board react to you in a negative way. After a while I'd think you'd recognize this as a "you" problem. Peace.

What advice would I need to take?  I'm not confused at why people react negatively to me, nor am I upset by it.  Being called out makes people uncomfortable.  

If you know who you are then I'd think you wouldn't have a problem being identified as such.  Peace.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Again, you display behaviors that you advise myself and others to modify. "Endeavor to stop being that thing instead of doubling down." You are a hypocrite who's incapable of following your own good advice. 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, The Killer Snark said:

I'm not discussing positions for or against BLM. Sorry if people thought I was trying to steer the conversation in that direction. I intended to point out to Pepper that I'm watching that film anyway, regardless of my preconceived views on it. I was making an example of how it's best to actually watch a movie before judging it based on political bias.

 

 

That remark was remarkably ill-considered, particularly in the wake of certain arguments that are currently being make in this topic that people who aren't white are reading things into films that cannot be there because -- it takes years to produce, make and market a film, and BLM as an idea of a movement hadn't started when the film was being fund-raised and all the rest.

Which then tends to support other commentary (here) that all too often white people do not recognizing their own (unconscious) biases, yah?

 

[Zorral]

22 minutes ago, The Killer Snark said:

I'm completely ignoring polishgenius.  But has anyone seen anything I've said in this thread that suggests racism and misogyny? And misogny? One of my favourite films last year was by a female director. I tend to go and see movies based on what actress whose movies I generally go and see as opposed to having favourite actors. Since your comments are also off topic, Week, when I mentioned Pizzagate before, I also mentioned that I didn't take it seriously. I'd been alerted to it becoming a topic among those covering the Podesta leaks before a number of people jumped on the bandgwagon. There was no concrete evidence to it. I said so the last and only time I ever mentioned it. I have been clear on that. I'm ignoring Dr Pepper's comments also. Now, none of this is on topic, so I'll get back on topic before anyone else comes out with further personality based attacks.

The controversy among "progressives" concerning La La Land, regarding white people being presented as the saviours of jazz, and the main black character being a 'sellout', to me, is a misrepresentation of the movie. But when one thinks of popular black music now one tends to think of modern R and B and hip hop. Jazz has died a death among black music audiences generally, in not just my opinion, over a period of decades. It's my belief that it appeals more now to white music journalists as opposed to a black audience. And this is entirely demonstrable when you look at modern music. It is not a contentious statement, or in any way a partisan one. 

 

That -- that is just wrong!  I don't where you live, but I tell ya, where I live, jazz is more than alive and kicking -- it's hot, it sizzles and as many African Americans are active in the scene as are Africans, Afro-latins, latins, and -- hooboy white people, including Jews.  And I'm talking about contemporary forms of jazz, not our glorious jazz heritage (with some great museums too!) reaching back into the late 19th, early 20th century through the white guys cerebrality erasing of rhythm from the music of the 1950's -- effectively killing it off because it couldn't be danced to anymore, and women like to dance. And women don't turn out for a music form, means it dies.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Again, you display behaviors that you advise myself and others to modify. "Endeavor to stop being that thing instead of doubling down" You are a hypocrite who's incapable of following your own good advice. 

You asked me how you should react about something.  I didn't ask anything similar, nor am I interested in being someone different.  

[The Killer Snark]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

That -- that is just wrong!  I don't where you live, but I tell ya, where I live, jazz is more than alive and kicking -- it's hot, it sizzles and as many African Americans are active in the scene as are Africans, Afro-latins, latins, and -- hooboy white people, including Jews.  And I'm talking about contemporary forms of jazz, not our glorious jazz heritage (with some great museums too!) reaching back into the late 19th, early 20th century through the white guys cerebrality erasing of rhythm from the music of the 1950's -- effectively killing it off because it couldn't be danced to anymore, and women like to dance. And women don't turn out for a music form, means it dies.

 

Well, I can take your point on that. I'm British. And I've never come across a black Brit who was into jazz music. It really is more of a thing that white people like more over here, at least in my experience.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

You asked me how you should react about something.  I didn't ask anything similar, nor am I interested in being someone different.  

Yeah, that's what is typically called a rhetorical question. I wasn't actually soliciting advice from you.

[DanteGabriel]

9 minutes ago, The Killer Snark said:

Well, I can take your point on that. I'm British. And I've never come across a black Brit who was into jazz music. It really is more of a thing that white people like more over here, at least in my experience.

It's amazing how well qualified you are to lecture us on the current state of race and music in America.

If you truly take the point on that, maybe you should revisit the criticism that La La Land presents a white savior to rescue an art form created by black people.

Lord grant me the confidence of a mediocre white man!

[The Killer Snark]

1 minute ago, DanteGabriel said:

It's amazing how well qualified you are to lecture us on the current state of race and music in America. Lord grant me the confidence of a mediocre white man!

Thank you. I'm glad you feel enlightened. I always aim to please.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

British Jazz...*SNERK*

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

It's amazing how well qualified you are to lecture us on the current state of race and music in America.

If you truly take the point on that, let's revisit the criticism that La La Land presents a white savior to rescue an art form created by black people.

Lord grant me the confidence of a mediocre white man!

He's not presented as a white savior rescuing the art form.  He is presented as a white guy/jazz purist.  Kind of like, oh let me think, Eric Clapton was an actual real life white guy blues purist.  The two things:  purist and savior are not the same.  Just as nostalgia for Old Hollywood musicals is not the same as white supremacy.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

What advice would I need to take?  I'm not confused at why people react negatively to me, nor am I upset by it.  Being called out makes people uncomfortable.  

If you know who you are then I'd think you wouldn't have a problem being identified as such.  Peace.

Just stop DP. You've been totally unfair to Manhole and have misrepresented what he said. All he ever said is that you have to accept the most disgusting types of speech if you want to truly have free speech. I'm Jewish and I think Neo-Nazis should have the right to spew their garbage, because it's a necessary part of free speech, no matter how vile it is. Frankly I think you owe him an apology, but either way, give it a rest...

[Dr. Pepper]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Just stop DP. You've been totally unfair to Manhole and have misrepresented what he said. All he ever said is that you have to accept the most disgusting types of speech if you want to truly have free speech. I'm Jewish and I think Neo-Nazis should have the right to spew their garbage, because it's a necessary part of free speech, no matter how vile it is. Frankly I think you owe him an apology, but either way, give it a rest...

No, that's not what he's said. Can't and won't apologize for what was actually said.  One would think that if that person were so sure he was actually misrepresented, that anything I had to say about it wouldn't matter....

I've already acknowledged that I was wrong by bringing in grievances from other threads and allowing those to inform how I interpreted Manhole's defense of white nostalgia as it relates to discussions in this thread.  I've offered him multiple outs.  He continues to litigate this topic.  

But sure, I'll give it a rest. Let's see if others are willing to do the same.  

Moving on, is there a situation comparable to a film like Suicide Squad being able to toss an "Oscar Winner" sticker on the box?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Moving on, is there a situation comparable to a film like Suicide Squad being able to toss an "Oscar Winner" sticker on the box?

Star Wars, I suppose. Although I'd say it was a better film than Suicide Squad. I think there have been many examples of usually really popular films that clean up on the technical and special effects type of categories where they might not otherwise be considered Oscar worthy films.

[Dr. Pepper]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Star Wars, I suppose. Although I'd say it was a better film than Suicide Squad. I think there have been many examples of usually really popular films that clean up on the technical and special effects type of categories where they might not otherwise be considered Oscar worthy films.

I guess I feel like at least with Star Wars it has a multi-generational cult following (or maybe not even cult at this point, but popular following). I wonder if Suicide Squad will enjoy a revival of sorts, or at least more viewership in general.  

(Full disclosure, I had some serious comic book tv/film fatigue and did not watch this movie after all my fellow comic book movie nerds declared it terrible.)

[Zorral]

42 minutes ago, The Killer Snark said:

Well, I can take your point on that. I'm British. And I've never come across a black Brit who was into jazz music. It really is more of a thing that white people like more over here, at least in my experience.

Actually I know both musicians and lovers of Jazz who happen to be British.  You are just in the wrong circles. But then, there are all these people in the US who don't think black people play bluegrass either . . . . and get very upset that they do and claim this is white music, despite, of course that instruments such as banjos have their origins in West Africa as well as do several other of the bluegrass musical traditions, and that the areas out of which it came here in the US were fully populated by people of African descent - - whose ancestors of course did not come there voluntarily . . . .

Tomorrow night we're going to hear Donald Harrison.  He and his group (which includes women, omighod!) are in the same venue all week -- and all the shows are sold out.

Last week we were at Lisa Fischer, who was at the same venue and all the shows were sold out.

We were at Arturo O'Farrill (who also has some young women in his group omighod) and it was sold out.

We also heard this month Harold Lopez Nussa, Pedrito Martinez, Dafnis Prieto and Esmerald Spaulding. They too were all sold out, and tix ain't cheap. The audiences are diverse and international.  And if you tell any of these people they aren't black you'd better duck and run.  Fast.

 Among other kinds of music as well.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I guess I feel like at least with Star Wars it has a multi-generational cult following (or maybe not even cult at this point, but popular following). I wonder if Suicide Squad will enjoy a revival of sorts, or at least more viewership in general.  

(Full disclosure, I had some serious comic book tv/film fatigue and did not watch this movie after all my fellow comic book movie nerds declared it terrible.)

I didn't see it either, and I'm a huge comic book geek. For many of the same reasons. Will probably catch it on streaming eventually as I was a big fan of the John Ostrander run of that comic. It seems like they drew enough from that iteration of the comic for me to be interested enough to check it out.

[The Killer Snark]

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Actually I know both musicians and lovers of Jazz who happen to be British.  You are just in the wrong circles. But then, there are all these people in the US who don't think black people play bluegrass either . . . . and get very upset that they do and claim this is white music, despite, of course that instruments such as banjos have their origins in West Africa as well as do several other of the bluegrass musical traditions, and that the areas out of which it came here in the US were fully populated by people of African descent - - whose ancestors of course did not come there voluntarily . . . .

Tomorrow night we're going to hear Donald Harrison.  He and his group (which includes women, omighod!) are in the same venue all week -- and all the shows are sold out.

Last week we were at Lisa Fischer, who was at the same venue and all the shows were sold out.

We were at Arturo O'Farrill (who also has some young women in his group omighod) and it was sold out.

We also heard this month Harold Lopez Nussa, Pedrito Martinez, Dafnis Prieto and Esmerald Spaulding. They too were all sold out, and tix ain't cheap. The audiences are diverse and international.  And if you tell any of these people they aren't black you'd better duck and run.  Fast.

 Among other kinds of music as well.

 

Re jazz, what a lot of people forget is that though it technically is of black origin, a lot of its antecedents were actually in the innovations into syncopated rhythm of some Western classical composers. Bach, for instance, or Beethoven, especially in the latter's last piano sonata, which now sounds uncannily prophetic. A number of the  most important jazz musicians, bandleaders and arrangers of the twentieth century were white people. There were also white composers working in a jazz idiom at various points in their career such as Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, and of course Gershwin. It isn't as if the director of La La Land decided, "Hey, let's make a movie pretending white people ever had anything to do with jazz.' Plus, most of the jazz musicians in that film are black people, so I cannot see what people are arguing about.

I'm taking a tea break during Moonlight. I'm enjoying it, but it's a slow burner, so I'm not deciding how good I think it is right now.