US Politics: Everyone's Manipulating Everyone

[Xray the Enforcer]

I'm sure that rant made you feel really good. Too bad it added nothing to the conversation.

[DMC]

5 hours ago, mormont said:

Make it so that technically Democrat supporters can vote if they really want to, by going through a bureaucratic process to obtain a form of ID that they won't actually use for anything else: meanwhile accept forms of ID that Republican voters have in their pocket already. This won't stop any individual from voting but will lower turnout overall, and best of all you can blame the voters themselves for being too lazy to get the required ID! (Never mind that your voters didn't have to bother.)

Yep, people who care enough to discuss the merits of voter ID laws are never going to identify with people that are disenfranchised by voter ID laws.  While turnout in the U.S. has been consistently lower than virtually all other advanced democracies for a half century, when you calculate turnout as the percentage of registered voters, American turnout is right around everybody else (and actually one of the highest in recent years - take a look at the gap in the graph here). The issue is getting voters already disengaged with the political process to register.  Such people are not going to have as high of a 'D' term than pretty much anyone posting on this thread, which requires a quick poly sci primer to explain:

The 'calculus of voting' has been an aspect of rational-choice models since at least Downs.  The basics of it are V = pB - C, where V is the decision to vote, B is the benefit from voting, C the costs, and p is the probability the vote matters.  Obviously, in any election larger than the Dixville Notch turnout, the p term is going to be infinitesimally low, dragging down the B term.  Thus, if there's any discernible cost of voting, it is rendered irrational.  However, Riker & Ordeshook (1969) introduced the D term into the equation that most commonly represents citizen duty but operationally can represent any "non-rational" (in the economic definition of utility) reason or satisfaction an individual retains from voting.

Now, the point of all that is for those that have been disengaged from the political process - many with very valid historical or practical reasons - their D term is going to much lower than those who are engaged.  Thus, the efforts of most registration efforts is to lower the cost of voting for this group of citizens.  The Republican party of the United States is the only institution in the democratized world that actively is trying to increase the cost of voting to the disenfranchised.

And make no mistake, the U.S. is unique in the amount of costs placed on voting:  from limiting automatic or same-day registration, to limiting early voting dates (or disallowing the practice entirely), to refusing to have a national holiday for the election, to restricting ex-cons (coupled with the highest incarceration rate in the world), we are the only country that seems intent on perpetuating disengagement for a large - and very specific - portion of the population.  

When voter ID laws are added on top of everything mentioned above, it is no surprise that the disengaged are unmotivated to take the extra effort.  It's a clear message that they're not wanted.  This is why regardless of ideology, rhetoric, or conduct, Republicans are going to hell.

[Toth]

24 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Sorry, I can only repeat that the US is messed up in ways I admittedly can hardly imagine, if it is considered a major problem to provide everyone with IDs. How come that almost every civilized country on earth can do this but one of the richest and most powerful can't?

And now some of you seriously claim that it would be futile to do anything about no IDs and no transportation options and the main problem is that some people might not vote because of this? And to avoid low turnout lax rules are needed so no ID is necessary? How about changing some of the root causes? Or organize efforts by local groups to take people without cars to the offices that they can get IDs? Isn't the US also the country with the most volunteers for public or charitable causes?

I think you think too much in the terms of Germany. Just look at the map: Germany is about as large as California and much, much more densely populated. Butterbumps argument about the rural landscape rings quite true to me, given that. Here in Germany you can go to nearly every town hall of every tiny ass village to get your ID-card. These centers seem to be far more centralized in the US and therefore it is far more of a hazzle to get there and even more difficult to just get your ID on time, considering how many people those centers have to serve.

Imagine the following situation: Next week is election. You live in the middle of nowhere and realize that you forgot to renew your ID because it never came up. So you have to get to the nearest large town. Imagine having no car and the public transportation being pretty much garbage in the area to live in. So you lose some days just by planning the right day to make that trip. Then you arrive, waste hours in a queue and then you have to wait a few more days for them to get out of their asses and issue you your ID. With a little luck you get it before election day. But since a whole lot of people will demand a new card before an election... well, chances are it will be too late and you have just burned your vote.

And that is the situation if you really, really want to vote. Now imagine if you already have been frustrated by the system in the past and give up before you try. At least that's the picture I get from these restrictions.

[Tempra]

16 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Sorry, I can only repeat that the US is messed up in ways I admittedly can hardly imagine, if it is considered a major problem to provide everyone with IDs. How come that almost every civilized country on earth can do this but one of the richest and most powerful can't?

And now some of you seriously claim that it would be futile to do anything about no IDs and no transportation options and the main problem is that some people might not vote because of this? And to avoid low turnout lax rules are needed so no ID is necessary? How about changing some of the root causes? Or organize efforts by local groups to take people without cars to the offices that they can get IDs? Isn't the US also the country with the most volunteers for public or charitable causes?

People who complain about the 'challenges' of obtaining ID cards by some individuals are really only criticizing the implementation process.  There are means of providing an ID card to anyone facing a reasonable challenge by extending office hours, having an option to obtain a card by mail, offering a no-cost option, etc.  Of course, those who oppose ID laws know that no amount of reasonable accommodation will encourage a certain unmotivated segment to obtain ID cards.  And, since Democrats perceive that unmotivated segment as potential Democratic voters, the Democrats will fight tooth and nail over what is seen as common sense in many/most democracies.

[Savannah]

23 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Sorry, I can only repeat that the US is messed up in ways I admittedly can hardly imagine, if it is considered a major problem to provide everyone with IDs. How come that almost every civilized country on earth can do this but one of the richest and most powerful can't?

And now some of you seriously claim that it would be futile to do anything about no IDs and no transportation options and the main problem is that some people might not vote because of this? And to avoid low turnout lax rules are needed so no ID is necessary? How about changing some of the root causes? Or organize efforts by local groups to take people without cars to the offices that they can get IDs? Isn't the US also the country with the most volunteers for public or charitable causes?

Of course they could, they just don't want to. 

[Mexal]

28 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Sorry, I can only repeat that the US is messed up in ways I admittedly can hardly imagine, if it is considered a major problem to provide everyone with IDs. How come that almost every civilized country on earth can do this but one of the richest and most powerful can't?

And now some of you seriously claim that it would be futile to do anything about no IDs and no transportation options and the main problem is that some people might not vote because of this? And to avoid low turnout lax rules are needed so no ID is necessary? How about changing some of the root causes? Or organize efforts by local groups to take people without cars to the offices that they can get IDs? Isn't the US also the country with the most volunteers for public or charitable causes?

These issues aren't solved because the states that make it hard to get an ID don't want them to vote. That's the whole point. Just like Texas registration rules. They're there to make it hard for some people to vote. I get it doesn't make sense to you but that's the way it is here in the US. Republicans win when less people vote and Democrats win when more people vote so instead of making it easier to vote, Republicans, who control 34 States, pass laws to make it harder and with Voting Rights Acts that's gutted, they don't have to make sure the law isn't discriminatory anymore.

[Dr. Pepper]

3 hours ago, Savannah said:

Can one really open a bank account or have access to a community library, without verifying identity in the US? 
That seems necessary. 

Obviously there's plenty of upper middle class folks in the country who do enjoy paying their housekeepers below minimum wage, so they don't want their maids to have an id.

Do you think most poor people have a bank account?  Hint, they don't.  

40 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

So every single person in the US without ID has a really tough life and doesn't have the time or resources to go get an ID card?

 

That's a BS line of thought.  I'll admit things could be easier but every adult living and working in the US should have a form of ID.  Stop with the excuses already.

This is ignorance to the extreme.  

[the Greenleif Stark]

10 minutes ago, Tempra said:

People who complain about the 'challenges' of obtaining ID cards by some individuals are really only criticizing the implementation process.  There are means of providing an ID card to anyone facing a reasonable challenge by extending office hours, having an option to obtain a card by mail, offering a no-cost option, etc.  Of course, those who oppose ID laws know that no amount of reasonable accommodation will encourage a certain unmotivated segment to obtain ID cards.  And, since Democrats perceive that unmotivated segment as potential Democratic voters, the Democrats will fight tooth and nail over what is seen as common sense in many/most democracies.

Well said

[the Greenleif Stark]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Do you think most poor people have a bank account?  Hint, they don't.  

This is ignorance to the extreme.  

Yupp, just soooo ignorant, thanks for pointing that out for me ;-)

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, Tempra said:

And, since Democrats perceive that unmotivated segment as potential Democratic voters, the Democrats will fight tooth and nail over what is seen as common sense in many/most democracies.

That's just completely ass-backwards.  In most democracies, citizens are automatically registered.  In many, there's compulsory voting.  What the Democrats are trying to do is get the U.S. to approach the common sense voting laws seen in the rest of the democratized world.

[IheartIheartTesla]

48 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

That's a BS line of thought.  I'll admit things could be easier but every adult living and working in the US should have a form of ID.  Stop with the excuses already.

No they shouldnt. Any 'originalist' reading of the constitution will also support the thesis that citizens of the US should not be required to carry an ID.

[Commodore]

voter ID laws are wildly popular, opposing them is about as politically wise as opposing the 2nd Amendment

[the Greenleif Stark]

4 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

No they shouldnt. Any 'originalist' reading of the constitution will also support the thesis that citizens of the US should not be required to carry an ID.

I never said REQUIRED, I said should have one, this is the 21st century, we should have a form of ID

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Commodore said:

voter ID laws are wildly popular, opposing them is about as politically wise as opposing the 2nd Amendment

So are automatic registration and early voting laws.  Opposing any of the three has muted costs because they're not salient issues to the vast majority of voters. 

[zelticgar]

52 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Sorry, I can only repeat that the US is messed up in ways I admittedly can hardly imagine, if it is considered a major problem to provide everyone with IDs. How come that almost every civilized country on earth can do this but one of the richest and most powerful can't?

And now some of you seriously claim that it would be futile to do anything about no IDs and no transportation options and the main problem is that some people might not vote because of this? And to avoid low turnout lax rules are needed so no ID is necessary? How about changing some of the root causes? Or organize efforts by local groups to take people without cars to the offices that they can get IDs? Isn't the US also the country with the most volunteers for public or charitable causes?

Just want to hop in here to assure you that you are not crazy. Sometimes it is better to just smile and nod. Smile and nod. 

[Tempra]

11 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

That's just completely ass-backwards.  In most democracies, citizens are automatically registered.  In many, there's compulsory voting.  What the Democrats are trying to do is get the U.S. to approach the common sense voting laws seen in the rest of the democratized world.

Automatic registration and ID laws aren't mutually exclusive.  I am in favor of everyone being automatically registered upon their 18th birthday.  

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, zelticgar said:

How about changing some of the root causes?

In process.

[Savannah]

25 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Do you think most poor people have a bank account?  Hint, they don't.  

Now that would be a reason to wear a pussyhat for. 

 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tempra said:

Automatic registration and ID laws aren't mutually exclusive.  I am in favor of everyone being automatically registered upon their 18th birthday.  

Of course they're not conceptually, but they're inextricably linked in the Republican strategy to suppress turnout of the disengaged - as well as Democratic efforts to counteract this.  That's what you were talking about.

[Tempra]

7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Of course they're not conceptually, but they're inextricably linked in the Republican strategy to suppress turnout of the disengaged - as well as Democratic efforts to counteract this.  That's what you were talking about.

No, they aren't.  Personally, I think democrats are better off pushing for automatic registration, a voting holiday, early voting initiatives, etc, then fighting the ID laws, which are wildly popular.