Jump to content

The unhooded man


Illyrio Mo'Parties

Recommended Posts

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but I just twigged that the hooded man might not actually be hooded:

Quote

Outside the snow was coming down so heavily that Theon could not see more than three feet ahead of him. He found himself alone in a white wilderness, walls of snow looming up to either side of him chest high. When he raised his head, the snowflakes brushed his cheeks like cold soft kisses. He could hear the sound of music from the hall behind him. A soft song now, and sad. For a moment he felt almost at peace.
Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."
"I'm not. I never … I was ironborn."
"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"
"The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsay is not done with me."
The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

It's not actually clear from the text whether the hood is up or down, and the fact that the cloak is flapping behind him, and that they meet face-to-face... well, it's possible that we've been describing him wrong all these years.

And that has its own implication, for if there's no hood, then perhaps Theon could be expected to recognise the man. Or perhaps not.

Also, I'd just like to say that "the hooded man" could make a good nickname for an uncircumcised penis.

Carry on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for bringing this up!

Yes, I read that before. Calling him the "hooded man" is a misnomer and a source of confusion but fine for lack of a better name. Unhooded man should be better.

My take is that Theon recognized the man even if not immediately. It is interesting he was not ashamed of showing him his hands, contrary to other scenes.

I'm almost on the Theon Durden theory if it wasn't for the "Theon Kinslayer" accusation which is repeated by two more persons afterwards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Thanks for bringing this up!

Yes, I read that before. Calling him the "hooded man" is a misnomer and a source of confusion but fine for lack of a better name. Unhooded man should be better.

My take is that Theon recognized the man even if not immediately. It is interesting he was not ashamed of showing him his hands, contrary to other scenes.

I'm almost on the Theon Durden theory if it wasn't for the "Theon Kinslayer" accusation which is repeated by two more persons afterwards.

I can't get on board with Theon Durden. Unreliable narrators are one thing, but that's taking the piss.

And what's also taking the piss is if Theon recognised him at the time and that's why he was comfortable showing him his hands. That's playing a little unfair from GRRM if that's the case. By describing him merely as a man, no name, it's plain Theon doesn't recognise him at first; if, once they were face-to-face and talking, Theon twigged, then we ought to get some internal monologue acknowleding that fact. But we don't, so I have to conclude that if it's someone Theon knows, he doesn't realise it at the time of the conversation.

Also, if the man's not wearing a hood then he's not trying to hide his identity, which means he's someone who's supposed to be in Winterfell at that moment. The putting the hand on the dagger is perhaps a tell, but I forget who people think that means. Alliser Thorne, IIRC.

So... whoever he is, he's not undercover and he's not someone that Theon recognised immediately, if at all. He thinks Theon's a dick, but if Theon's a turncloak then so is Roose Bolton and so is, therefore, anybody supporting Roose... so he's either a Northman who isn't loyal to Roose, or he's someone from some other faction who happens to be in Winterfell for some reason.

I kind of like the idea that he's Alliser, actually. He's there to inform on Jon Snow and try to get him deposed, but he doesn't actually like or respect the people he's turning to, all of whom fought on the other side of the Rebellion that landed him on the Wall in the first place.

Or, maybe, just maybe... he's absolutely nobody important, and GRRM is just fucking with us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'm almost on the Theon Durden theory if it wasn't for the "Theon Kinslayer" accusation which is repeated by two more persons afterwards.

I’m not agreeable with the Durden theory. What struck me in your post was the Kinslayer thing. I had not noticed that until you mentioned it. The other two people were Rowan, speculated to be an Umber and Crowsfood after Theon’s & Jeyne’s escape. Is that correct?

2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Also, if the man's not wearing a hood then he's not trying to hide his identity, which means he's someone who's supposed to be in Winterfell at that moment. The putting the hand on the dagger is perhaps a tell, but I forget who people think that means. Alliser Thorne, IIRC.

My impression of the man with the cloak is that he has an air of authority about him. I agree that putting his hand on the dagger is a tell. To me he seems like a man on a mission or a man that has completed a task. Perhaps a Manderly knight?

Theon and the man cross paths after the death of YD but before the death of the Walder kid (?).

One of the things that nag at me in these Reek/Theon chapters is that Martin has Theon describe the condition of the gates at WF. Theon also says Bolton has WF locked down and no one goes or comes without Roose’s okay. If that is true it throws a crinkle into whether the man with the cloak came from outside WF.

I have changed my mind on who this man with the cloak is so many times I have lost track. I considered Thorne, Benjen, Davos, and Robett Glover just to name a few.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It says their eyes meet and they're face-to-face. That means Theon totally saw his face but didn't know him, or that's some sloppy writing on George's part. 

So, if it was someone Theon knows, we can rule out people like:

- Benjen

- The Blackfish

- Mikken

- Harwin

- Septon Chayle

- Robett Glover

Then we can rule out Davos because he knows Theon didn't kill the Stark boys. We can rule out Howland Reed because the HM is not described as being noticeably short. 

So that leaves us with people like:

- Alliser Thorne, but I really don't think he gives a fuck about any murdered Starks.

As random as it is, my guess is the HM is one of the very secondary members of the Brotherhood whose whereabouts are unknown. Lady Stoneheart sent him (or them) to infiltrate Winterfell like Tom o' Sevens infiltrated Riverrun, as soon as she heard that "Arya" was headed that way. It explains why the HM has such hatred of Theon, if he shares Lady Stoneheart's thirst for vengeance. 

As to which member of the Brotherhood, I'd say Anguy if GRRM had dropped a hint about the guy carrying a bow. But the wiki tells me there are a lot of members of the Brotherhood unaccounted for other than Anguy and Edric, like:

-Merrit O'Moontown, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

-Watty the Miller, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

-Swampy Meg, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

-Jon O'Nutten, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

-Melly, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

-Puddingfoot, not currently with Lady Stoneheart's group.

Therefore, the HM is obviously Puddingfoot. I just cracked the case, everyone can go home now, you're welcome. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but I just twigged that the hooded man might not actually be hooded:

It's not actually clear from the text whether the hood is up or down, and the fact that the cloak is flapping behind him, and that they meet face-to-face... well, it's possible that we've been describing him wrong all these years.

And that has its own implication, for if there's no hood, then perhaps Theon could be expected to recognise the man. Or perhaps not.

Also, I'd just like to say that "the hooded man" could make a good nickname for an uncircumcised penis.

Carry on.

The hood is something picked up on by readers and has zero to do with anything. It is winter in the north, and people will wear hoods to cover their heads. Every.Single.Person.Is.Hooded.   The fact that the "man" recognizes Theon and Theon does not recognize him is very out of sorts.  Theon recognizes folks he has met after a time. Like when Ramsey parades Theon in front of the Dreadfort's northern supporters. This is why Theon Durden is so popular

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’m not agreeable with the Durden theory. What struck me in your post was the Kinslayer thing. I had not noticed that until you mentioned it. The other two people were Rowan, speculated to be an Umber and Crowsfood after Theon’s & Jeyne’s escape. Is that correct?

Yes, and that sole fact rules out the Theon Durden theory. The accusation is odd, though. It is the first time we heard it and it is speculated that at least one of the Miller's wife sons is Theon's, but who could know that for certain? It also points out to the sharing of information between Mance, the Umbers and whoever the (un)hooded man is.

Now, I believe that Theon recognized the man, maybe not at first. Also, being unhooded indicates that he is not afraid of being recognized... Weird.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

I can't get on board with Theon Durden. Unreliable narrators are one thing, but that's taking the piss.

And what's also taking the piss is if Theon recognised him at the time and that's why he was comfortable showing him his hands. That's playing a little unfair from GRRM if that's the case. By describing him merely as a man, no name, it's plain Theon doesn't recognise him at first; if, once they were face-to-face and talking, Theon twigged, then we ought to get some internal monologue acknowleding that fact. But we don't, so I have to conclude that if it's someone Theon knows, he doesn't realise it at the time of the conversation.

Also, if the man's not wearing a hood then he's not trying to hide his identity, which means he's someone who's supposed to be in Winterfell at that moment. The putting the hand on the dagger is perhaps a tell, but I forget who people think that means. Alliser Thorne, IIRC.

So... whoever he is, he's not undercover and he's not someone that Theon recognised immediately, if at all. He thinks Theon's a dick, but if Theon's a turncloak then so is Roose Bolton and so is, therefore, anybody supporting Roose... so he's either a Northman who isn't loyal to Roose, or he's someone from some other faction who happens to be in Winterfell for some reason.

I kind of like the idea that he's Alliser, actually. He's there to inform on Jon Snow and try to get him deposed, but he doesn't actually like or respect the people he's turning to, all of whom fought on the other side of the Rebellion that landed him on the Wall in the first place.

Or, maybe, just maybe... he's absolutely nobody important, and GRRM is just fucking with us.

Why and how Alliser would be at WF? To inform on Jon? No, they have Clydas for that.

Again, my take is Theon recognized him because he suspects he may be behind the murders. So, he is not the regular northmen despising Theon. Even Walton Steelhanks calls Theon, turncloack.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Apologies if this has been brought up before, but I just twigged that the hooded man might not actually be hooded:

It's not actually clear from the text whether the hood is up or down, and the fact that the cloak is flapping behind him, and that they meet face-to-face... well, it's possible that we've been describing him wrong all these years.

And that has its own implication, for if there's no hood, then perhaps Theon could be expected to recognise the man. Or perhaps not.

Also, I'd just like to say that "the hooded man" could make a good nickname for an uncircumcised penis.

Carry on.

Whether the "hooded man" was wearing the hood doesn't matter. What matters is that cloak was hooded, like the one Theon was wearing in his first POV, back when Theon was striding in the opposite direction compared to Reek. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Thanks for bringing this up!

Yes, I read that before. Calling him the "hooded man" is a misnomer and a source of confusion but fine for lack of a better name. Unhooded man should be better.

My take is that Theon recognized the man even if not immediately. It is interesting he was not ashamed of showing him his hands, contrary to other scenes.

I'm almost on the Theon Durden theory if it wasn't for the "Theon Kinslayer" accusation which is repeated by two more persons afterwards.

The ghost of Theon's former self knows Theon thought of Robb as a brother, fantasized of being Eddard's son an Sansa's husband, so that Bran and Rickon were like his own brothers. Theon Kinslayer. When he denied the charge, saying he was Ironborn, the ghost of his former self knew better, saying false is all he ever was. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The ghost of Theon's former self knows Theon thought of Robb as a brother, fantasized of being Eddard's son an Sansa's husband, so that Bran and Rickon were like his own brothers. Theon Kinslayer. When he denied the charge, saying he was Ironborn, the ghost of his former self knew better, saying false is all he ever was. 

What I don't understand about the "I was Ironborn" statement is that the other time he uses it in this chapter it seems to carry no contradiction to the idea he was kin to the Starks:

Quote

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

The Ghost in Winterfell, ADWD

So in the Theon Durden interpretation, both he and his subconscious agree that being Ironborn and a kin to the Starks is mutually exclusive, but then in one of his most self-reflective moments shortly afterwards he seems to be of the opinion that they are not. Unless I am totally misreading this, of course.

 

Besides, Theon knows that he did not kill Bran and Rickon so would not be a kinslayer even if he were their kin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

 

- Alliser Thorne, but I really don't think he gives a fuck about any murdered Starks.

 

Thorne dislikes turncloaks of any kind. He considers the Starks themselves, or Ned at least to be traitors for 1) fighting in the rebellion, and 2) what happened in KL.

I'm intrigued by the idea of him being there for some kind of covert mission. Maybe he could accidentally stumble on the proof that Jon is Rhaegar's son. I really, really want Thorne to live to learn that he's been hassling Rhaegar's boy. Also I'd like to see what he did when Mance showed up pretending to be a singer. It's very possible that Mance and Alliser knew each other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

What I don't understand about the "I was Ironborn" statement is that the other time he uses it in this chapter it seems to carry no contradiction to the idea he was kin to the Starks:

So in the Theon Durden interpretation, both he and his subconscious agree that being Ironborn and a kin to the Starks is mutually exclusive, but then in one of his most self-reflective moments shortly afterwards he seems to be of the opinion that they are not. Unless I am totally misreading this, of course.

 

Besides, Theon knows that he did not kill Bran and Rickon so would not be a kinslayer even if he were their kin.

I would say the passage you cited shows how conflicted he was. And how the guilt he felt was overwhelming. He betrayed his "friends and brothers" as he admits to Eddard's gods, gods he is rain to quite naturally notwithstanding his pathetic excuse that he is Ironborn. But here, when he says he was Ironborn, a son of Pyke, it shows how desperately he wants to be Theon again rather than Reek. 

The ghost of his former self calls himself Kinslayer to prove the denial, which the ghost of his former self points out the lie, false is all he ever was. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was down with the HM being Hallis Mollen until @Illyrio Mo'Parties posted a link to a theory that the first body they found with its face eaten away was Roger Ryswell, and now the HM is glamoured to look like Rog using the ruby that Mance took with him when he left Castle Black.

Maybe Illyrio could repost it if anyone is interested. I can't find it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I was down with the HM being Hallis Mollen until @Illyrio Mo'Parties posted a link to a theory that the first body they found with its face eaten away was Roger Ryswell, and now the HM is glamoured to look like Rog using the ruby that Mance took with him when he left Castle Black.

Maybe Illyrio could repost it if anyone is interested. I can't find it.

For real? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Yeah, check with Illyrio. He probably still has it.

I was skeptical at first because we would have yet another glamoured secret identity, but the more I read it the more it made sense.

Roger Ryswell was not killed, it was one of his men-at-arms. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...