Theon Durden and Dissociative Identity Disorder

[halfmanhalfwolf]

Hi folks,

Just throwing my two cents into the pot in regards to this Hooded Man theory, and apologies if this has already been brought up elsewhere. Contrary to what "Fight Club" would have us believe, in a true case of DID, while auditory hallucinations are common, the primary (or original) personality does not see, communicate with, or interact with any of the others. Essentially, one distinct personality presents itself at any given time, and while the switches can be rapid and unpredictable, there is no overlap. 

This does not necessarily mean that the theory is incorrect, as this type of slightly inaccurate portrayal is often used for dramatic effect. I guess in my heart of hearts I like to think the George is the kind of fellow who would do his homework and try to stick to it.

Food for thought, cheers. 

 

[rotting sea cow]

It is hard to ask to an author to be scientifically correct in all aspects of world building.

Not long ago, there was here a boring thread regarding how blood behaves in freezing temperatures and whether this can rule out Big Walder as author of the killing of Little Walder. Do people think that GRRM is going to phone a forensic expert so he can write that scene correctly?

Same here, whatever lasting psychological injuries Theon suffers due to Ramsay's torture, do not necessarily need to be a known disorder if it furthers the plot.

I'm kind of fan of the Theon Durden theory, except for the accusation of "Theon Kinslayer", which is unheard before the (un)hooded man and repeated two times more afterwards by two different seemingly unconnected persons.

 

[kissdbyfire]

I don't know, Martin seems to actually do his homework. He has also said that he likes for things to make sense (paraphrasing). That said, there are a number of things that could be seen as weird if examined through a "real world" lens. And we simply don't have enough info to be sure either way, and as of now I could go either way. Personally I don't buy the Theon Durden theory. 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

Regarding Theon having Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), someone pointed something out about Theon that I think is very interesting:

We find out in Aeron's sample chapter in Winds of Winter, that Euron molested both Aeron and Urrigon, who was the brother between Euron and Aeron. This person here speculated, that since Euron had molested his younger brothers, why not also his nephew?

The reason why this person believed that was because when Theon was rescued by Mors Umber outside of Winterfell, Theon sees Mors and wants to tear off his eyepatch to make sure that there is no dark eye "shining with malice" underneath the patch. Although we do not know what opinions Teon truly has of Euron, we do know that when Euron is mentioned, Theon has very little to say about him and also the fact that Theon has seen Euron dark eye "shining with malice" , which might hint that he doesn't have a particularily high opinion about his uncle.

(We the readers also KNOW that Euron is a very bad person, so Theon having a bad opinion about Euron is very much a possibility.)

There is also the fact that you mentioned DID, which is a very common disorder by people who were molested in their childhood.

 

Just saying.

[bent branch]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 4:49 AM, rotting sea cow said:

It is hard to ask to an author to be scientifically correct in all aspects of world building.

Not long ago, there was here a boring thread regarding how blood behaves in freezing temperatures and whether this can rule out Big Walder as author of the killing of Little Walder. Do people think that GRRM is going to phone a forensic expert so he can write that scene correctly?

Same here, whatever lasting psychological injuries Theon suffers due to Ramsay's torture, do not necessarily need to be a known disorder if it furthers the plot.

I'm kind of fan of the Theon Durden theory, except for the accusation of "Theon Kinslayer", which is unheard before the (un)hooded man and repeated two times more afterwards by two different seemingly unconnected persons.

 

Did you know that GRRM was one of the writers on the 1987-1990 Beauty and the Beast TV show? GRRM definitely has a history of combining forensics and fantasy. I wouldn't dismiss the properties of blood at the freezing point so quickly as evidence.

[halfmanhalfwolf]

On 2/27/2017 at 0:15 PM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Regarding Theon having Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), someone pointed something out about Theon that I think is very interesting:

We find out in Aeron's sample chapter in Winds of Winter, that Euron molested both Aeron and Urrigon, who was the brother between Euron and Aeron. This person here speculated, that since Euron had molested his younger brothers, why not also his nephew?

The reason why this person believed that was because when Theon was rescued by Mors Umber outside of Winterfell, Theon sees Mors and wants to tear off his eyepatch to make sure that there is no dark eye "shining with malice" underneath the patch. Although we do not know what opinions Teon truly has of Euron, we do know that when Euron is mentioned, Theon has very little to say about him and also the fact that Theon has seen Euron dark eye "shining with malice" , which might hint that he doesn't have a particularily high opinion about his uncle.

(We the readers also KNOW that Euron is a very bad person, so Theon having a bad opinion about Euron is very much a possibility.)

There is also the fact that you mentioned DID, which is a very common disorder by people who were molested in their childhood.

 

Just saying.

Good catch! Wow, good catch. I'm still pissed off at Theon, but this may help me cut him a bit of slack. 

[Renly's Banana]

I always kind of assumed this hooded man was someone working for either the Manderlys or Dustins. We're sort of led to believe it's Abel and his women doing all the killings, but I would not be surprised if it was a combination of both parties. Not working together, but simultaneously. 
Think about it, I don't think Abel or his washerwomen would kill a little Frey boy no matter what his bloodline was; they have no reason to, that's not what they're there to do. But you know who does? The same guy that's mercilessly baking them into pies. 

As for the Theon/multiple personality thing, I think it's a fun idea to throw out, but we just don't have a lot of evidence on it. Seems like a weird plot twist to throw in so late into his narrative.

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

I always kind of assumed this hooded man was someone working for either the Manderlys or Dustins. We're sort of led to believe it's Abel and his women doing all the killings, but I would not be surprised if it was a combination of both parties. Not working together, but simultaneously. 
Think about it, I don't think Abel or his washerwomen would kill a little Frey boy no matter what his bloodline was; they have no reason to, that's not what they're there to do. But you know who does? The same guy that's mercilessly baking them into pies. 

As for the Theon/multiple personality thing, I think it's a fun idea to throw out, but we just don't have a lot of evidence on it. Seems like a weird plot twist to throw in so late into his narrative.

The spearwives pretty much admit to the killings, all but Little Walder. 

[bemused]

On 2/27/2017 at 5:22 AM, halfmanhalfwolf said:

Essentially, one distinct personality presents itself at any given time, and while the switches can be rapid and unpredictable, there is no overlap.

Yes, and Theon always knows that he's someone other than Reek, even when we meet Reek in his worst condition in his first chapter. When the Walders ask who he is ,he's terrified of giving the wrong answer. "You have to remember your name" shows he knows "Reek" is a pretense that must be kept up for fear of horrific consequences.

Was he molested by Euron? I don't know .. maybe just tormented (bad enough) like Egg was by Aerion..

".. And Aerion . . . I remember, when I was little, he used to come into my bedchamber at night and put his knife between my legs. He had too many brothers, he'd say, maybe one night he'd make me his sister, then he could marry me. He threw my cat in the well too. He says he didn't, but he always lies." ... Egg to Dunk in The Hedge Knight

As to the Walders..

On 3/1/2017 at 10:30 AM, bent branch said:

GRRM definitely has a history of combining forensics and fantasy. I wouldn't dismiss the properties of blood at the freezing point so quickly as evidence.

Big yes,to this.. But that doesn't rule Big Walder out.. he was just kept indoors until it was time to make the grand entrance. He was either complicit with Roose or complicit with Ramsay.. (If Roose, removing the only one of "the Bastard's Boys" who wasn't Roose's man.. If Ramsay because maybe Roose had got to Little Walder, too)

That prospect did not appear to please Lord Ramsay. "I laid waste to Winterfell, or had you forgotten?"

"No, but it appears you have … the ironmen laid waste to Winterfell, and butchered all its people. Theon Turncloak."...Reek III

Ramsay is ferocious, I will grant you, but he swings that sword like a butcher hacking meat." ...Reek III

"My brother Merrett's son." Hosteen Frey lowered the body to the floor before the dais. "Butchered like a hog and shoved beneath a snowbank. A boy." ... Theon I

On 3/2/2017 at 1:46 AM, kissdbyfire said:

The spearwives pretty much admit to the killings, all but Little Walder. 

We're often in agreement, but not in this. I think Theon was right when he thought, about the murders ...

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak. ... A Ghost in Winterfell

In other words, Ramsay is the killer. Yellow Dick's end was particularly vicious because Ramsay has cottoned to the fact that his men are Roose's.(See the arguement on the dais.) The spearwives are willing to let Theon suspect them, if it helps to get them what they want, but being suspected of killing a child is a step too far.

I hope this wasn't too big a derailment.

[Faereth]

15 minutes ago, bemused said:

 

We're often in agreement, but not in this. I think Theon was right when he thought, about the murders ...

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak. ... A Ghost in Winterfell

In other words, Ramsay is the killer. Yellow Dick's end was particularly vicious because Ramsay has cottoned to the fact that his men are Roose's.(See the arguement on the dais.) The spearwives are willing to let Theon suspect them, if it helps to get them what they want, but being suspected of killing a child is a step too far.

I hope this wasn't too big a derailment.

Do you know I'd never even considered Ramsay as being the one committing the murders, I just took it at face value that it was the Spearwives but I love how you've set it our here that it is Ramsay, I think you've actually sold me on this one, so thank you for your post. This, for me, takes the Roose/Ramsay relationship to a whole new level. Is Roose aware do you think? Or is he going to underestimate Ramsay? Certainly adds a whole other element to Winterfell, if it wasn't already complicated enough. 

[Damon_Tor]

On 2/27/2017 at 5:22 AM, halfmanhalfwolf said:

Hi folks,

Just throwing my two cents into the pot in regards to this Hooded Man theory, and apologies if this has already been brought up elsewhere. Contrary to what "Fight Club" would have us believe, in a true case of DID, while auditory hallucinations are common, the primary (or original) personality does not see, communicate with, or interact with any of the others. Essentially, one distinct personality presents itself at any given time, and while the switches can be rapid and unpredictable, there is no overlap. 

This does not necessarily mean that the theory is incorrect, as this type of slightly inaccurate portrayal is often used for dramatic effect. I guess in my heart of hearts I like to think the George is the kind of fellow who would do his homework and try to stick to it.

Food for thought, cheers. 

 

This is a world where telepathy, or a magical equivalent, is a very real thing. That means that psychology from our world might not necessarily apply.

Full disclosure: I've been watching Legion, and I'm familiar enough with the comics to know where it's going. Possible spoilers ahead.

Spoiler

So in Legion, the main character has really advanced psychic powers. At least in the comics, he develops something akin to both Dissociative Identity Disorder and schizophrenia, where whenever someone dies while he's in telepathic contact with them (and at first he can't NOT be in psychic contact with them because he can't control it), that person continues to live on as a part of him, and can speak with him or take over his body and use his powers (though each personality can use only a subset of his powers because of the way his mind becomes divided between them).

The point is, something that looks like schizophrenia or DID in ASoIaF might be a malady that comes from the awakening of a psychic gift of some sort, or to exposure to someone else's psychic gift. Consider that Hodor (at least in the show) was left mentally impaired by psychic contact with Bran under stressful circumstances.

I don't think Theon is psychic: in fact I think the opposite is true, that most Ironborn carry a gene that makes them resistant to psychic contact which is why a near-death experience (drowning) is the only way they can speak with their God. However, it's entirely possible that Ramsay is, even if he isn't entirely aware of it, and the prolonged torture served to weaken Theon's natural resistance and eventually allow Ramsay to really get in there and fiddle with things.

[bemused]

3 hours ago, Faereth said:

Is Roose aware do you think? Or is he going to underestimate Ramsay? Certainly adds a whole other element to Winterfell, if it wasn't already complicated enough. 

Oh, I think Roose is aware. Here's Theon, from Reek III ...

"As you wish." Bolton's pale eyes looked empty in the moonlight, as if there were no one behind them at all. "I mean you no harm, you know. I owe you much and more."

"You do?" Some part of him was screaming, This is a trap, he is playing with you, the son is just the shadow of the father. Lord Ramsay played with his hopes all the time.

... and of course, a real person is more substantial than his shadow. Unless we're in Peter Pan territory, when has a person's shadow done anything the person didn't expect ? It's just the result of light cast on the person's actions.

I think the way Roose raised Ramsay guaranteed Ramsay would become the person he is. Roose must know the full story of how Ramsay took WF from Theon, so he would suspect Ramsay of the killings before yellow Dick.. YD was probably tasked with trying to get Rams. to cool it..

Barbrey tells Theon, in regard to "Arya" crying..

"Roose is not pleased. Tell your bastard that." 

Theon is far too afraid of Rams. to attempt such a thing, but YD as Roose's man, and Ramsay's favourite, would pass on a message from Roose .. he doesn't have Theon's reasons to be afraid.

51 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

I don't think Theon is psychic: in fact I think the opposite is true, that most Ironborn carry a gene that makes them resistant to psychic contact which is why a near-death experience (drowning) is the only way they can speak with their God. However, it's entirely possible that Ramsay is, even if he isn't entirely aware of it, and the prolonged torture served to weaken Theon's natural resistance and eventually allow Ramsay to really get in there and fiddle with things.

I think Theon is psychic,to a degree ... certainly by the end of ADWD, or rather, psychically receptive. That's why he senses the ghosts, hears Bran, sees Bran's face. I agree that the torture has broken down what natural resistance he had... But I still reject Theon Durden.

Where I think this will become more evident is if when he's taken before the tree in TWOW.

In our world, when people become psychic channels, it's often as a result of a near death experience, or something else psychologically traumatic. Theon may have shown the first signs of receptiveness in ACOK, Theon V, when he had his true dream of the dead.

The Ironborn may not be blocked, they just don't try to speak to their god any other way.

[Faereth]

@bemused thanks for your reply. I find the relationship between Roose and Ramsay so fascinating it's great to read another's insight on it. If Roose didn't know the story of how Winterfell before he certainly got the gist of it when Ramsay let slip about how he said they put Winterfell to the torch and Roose had to correct him and remind him it was the Ironborn that were supposed to have done it. 

I find Roose such a difficult character to read though. You consider he's had interactions with quite a few pov characters and he's still so hard to understand. I think Theon weirdly does get him though, and as you and others have been saying Theon is becoming very receptive to reading things below the surface. That might be why he hears Bran so easily from the Godswood whispering his name. 

[three-eyed monkey]

I think the case for Theon Durden is extremely weak. Certainly Theon is struggling with his identity, and traumatised, etc. But there is nothing in the books that supports a fight club like split.

Besides, the hooded man is Halis Mollen, who has returned to Winterfell with Ned's bones as part of the contingent from White Harbour.

 

[John Suburbs]

I was solidly in the Halis Mollen camp too, until I read this:

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-hooded-man-uncloaked/

Now I'm not so sure.