Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

[Black Crow]

16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That crown is symbolic of an overthrow, but to me it doesn't make sense that it was an overthrow of the Nights King, because he was Lord Commander of the Wall not Lord of Winterfell. What I'm wondering is if there was a bastard that overthrew his father and then claimed the Stark name and the title King in the North?

According to Old Nan's version of the story the Nights King was overthrown by his brother the Stark of Winterfell - who may well have been his younger brother since he's not referred to as a king.

Something worth considering is that if the Long Night and the Long Winter are synonymous then the Nights King and King of Winter may be too.

[LynnS]

47 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I guess that would depend upon whether or not Jon was older than Robb. If Robb is the elder and you have to be dead to be King of Winter, then Robb would take up that position, right?

As for the Kings of Winter title, something definitely happened with a Lord of Winterfell being ousted by someone with an iron sword as signified by the crown of the King in the North with the bronze circlet surrounded by iron swords. That crown is symbolic of an overthrow, but to me it doesn't make sense that it was an overthrow of the Nights King, because he was Lord Commander of the Wall not Lord of Winterfell. What I'm wondering is if there was a bastard that overthrew his father and then claimed the Stark name and the title King in the North?

I think we are getting some hint of birth order when the direwolves are discovered.  Ghost's eyes are opened and this implies birth order, an older pup.  I still maintain that the statues in the crypts indicate the line of succession with Lyanna's progeny taking precedence had she lived.  Ned has literally buried that secret.  To quote GRRM in his last blog post comment section:  He's not telling, he's showing.

  This moment is also telling:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"My son Bran …"

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

What this tells me is that Ned is not Jon's father since he doesn't include him as his own child in his private thoughts.  Then he wonders what Catelyn would do if Jon took precedence over the children of her body.  Ned hopes he never finds out.    

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

According to Old Nan's version of the story the Nights King was overthrown by his brother the Stark of Winterfell - who may well have been his younger brother since he's not referred to as a king.

Something worth considering is that if the Long Night and the Long Winter are synonymous then the Nights King and King of Winter may be too.

The problem with this though is that there wasn't just one King of Winter.

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think we are getting some hint of birth order when the direwolves are discovered.  Ghost's eyes are opened and this implies birth order, an older pup.  I still maintain that the statues in the crypts indicate the line of succession with Lyanna's progeny taking precedence had she lived.  Ned has literally buried that secret.  To quote GRRM in his last blog post comment section:  He's not telling, he's showing.

  This moment is also telling:

What this tells me is that Ned is not Jon's father since he doesn't include him as his own child in his private thoughts.  Then he wonders what Catelyn would do if Jon took precedence over the children of her body.  Ned hopes he never finds out.    

Unless Jon's father is also a Stark he cannot inherit Winterfell or the titles of Lord of Winterfell, King in the North, nor King of Winter.

[Black Crow]

26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The problem with this though is that there wasn't just one King of Winter.

I don't think so, there may well have been 13 and as we discussed in the last thread the timelines may be sufficiently screwed for all 13 to lie [or sit] in the Winterfell crypts

28 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Unless Jon's father is also a Stark he cannot inherit Winterfell or the titles of Lord of Winterfell, King in the North, nor King of Winter.

That didn't stop Bael's son becoming Lord of Winterfell and I'm much inclined to think that the main purpose of that story is to pave the way for Lyanna's son to likewise become Lord of Winterfell despite his father not bearing the Stark name. 

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The problem with this though is that there wasn't just one King of Winter.

Unless Jon's father is also a Stark he cannot inherit Winterfell or the titles of Lord of Winterfell, King in the North, nor King of Winter.

It's the Stark bloodline that matters.  As far as anyone knows Ned is his father and Robb has made him his heir.  Then there is Stannis who is offering to remove the taint of bastardy or at least make him a great bastard.   It comes down to royal blood once again whether you think RLJ or alt-RLJ.  Either way a king's son by a daughter of Winterfell is likely to take precedence.  I think this is the secret that Ned has taken to his grave.  That for Jon's sake he has been robbed of his inheritance.   A bastard boy of royal blood is not likely to inherit the throne but he could be made Lord of Winterfell.  Who would deny their king's son?

We get a hint of Jon's royal blood from Stannis telling Davos that the boy is nothing except for the power of king's blood as his brother's bastard, that there is power in king's blood and we have Melisandre telling Jon outright that there is power in him.  She is talking about his blood.    

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think so, there may well have been 13 and as we discussed in the last thread the timelines may be sufficiently screwed for all 13 to lie [or sit] in the Winterfell crypts

That didn't stop Bael's son becoming Lord of Winterfell and I'm much inclined to think that the main purpose of that story is to pave the way for Lyanna's son to likewise become Lord of Winterfell despite his father not bearing the Stark name. 

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's the Stark bloodline that matters.  As far as anyone knows Ned is his father and Robb has made him his heir.  Then there is Stannis who is offering to remove the taint of bastardy or at least make him a great bastard.   It comes down to royal blood once again whether you think RLJ or alt-RLJ.  Either way a king's son by a daughter of Winterfell is likely to take precedence.  I think this is the secret that Ned has taken to his grave.  That for Jon's sake he has been robbed of his inheritance.   A bastard boy of royal blood is not likely to inherit the throne but he could be made Lord of Winterfell.  Who would deny their king's son?

We get a hint of Jon's royal blood from Stannis telling Davos that the boy is nothing except for the power of king's blood as his brother's bastard, that there is power in king's blood and we have Melisandre telling Jon outright that there is power in him.  She is talking about his blood.    

To both above - I know these things. My answer was strictly in response to Jon having to be dead in order to be King of Winter. If the King of Winter has to be dead and Robb is older than Jon, then Robb would be the dead King of Winter...unless Jon is older. Kapeesh?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

To both above - I know these things. My answer was strictly in response to Jon having to be dead in order to be King of Winter. If the King of Winter has to be dead and Robb is older than Jon, then Robb would be the dead King of Winter...unless Jon is older. Kapeesh?

[JNR]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Something worth considering is that if the Long Night and the Long Winter are synonymous then the Nights King and King of Winter may be too.

Yes, this is an interesting point.  And I also like this a lot better than the B-movie Night's King we got on the show.

[ravenous reader]

On 3/5/2017 at 8:01 PM, LynnS said:

As to the Wall being described as a sword in part; I find that very curious because essentially it's a sword made of ice.  Which calls to mind the Stark ancestral sword.  I doubt very much that Valyrian steel is the true ancestral sword of the Kings of Winter.  I think it more likely that the LH became the first King of Winter when he defeated Winter and took his sword in trial by combat.  I also think the LH took Winter's place at the head of that army and now resides in the frozen hell reserved for Starks.  I think this is likely the ancestral sword of the Kings of Winter in their crypts not unlike the sword that the WW used against Waymar Royce or like the Wall itself lain flat across the land like the swords across the knee of the Kings in the Crypt.  

edit:  I wonder if Bran saw the kings of winter beyond the curtain of light since the their stone statues bear their likenesses and he can name them.  Whatever magic the CotF provided to aid the LH and the first men coming with a terrible price.  Perhaps this is the terrible knowledge and the reason he must live.

Hi Lynn -- great connection between the Wall as a sword of ice cutting across the landscape and the ancestral sword Ice across the laps of the Kings of Winter!    I recall Black Crow mentioning in our fascinating 'chess analogy' discussion, on one of the previous 'heresy' threads, that the King piece in the Lewis Chess Set is depicted in just that pose, with the sword laid horizontally across the lap, further linking the Wall as sword to the sword of a king specifically.  So when Jon says he gave up everything for the Wall; and that 'the Wall is mine', what is actually thereby expressed is that he's claiming his true inheritance as rightful heir of the Stark ancestral blade, ironically. The idea of the the ancestral blade containing or warding something fits nicely with your previous idea of the Wall containing and warding 'the killing cold'  -- as you've so eloquently expressed it, 'the soul of ice.'

The Last Hero defeating Winter in single combat, thereby winning the 'original Ice', is highly reminiscent of the scene in which Ned defeats Ser Arthur Dayne and takes his sword Dawn (and dovetails nicely with @LmL's idea of the kingsguard as Others figuratively).  Unsurprisingly, both the Wall and Dawn are described in similar terms to the sword of the Other to which we are introduced in the prologue, particularly the phrase 'alive with light':

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A Game of Thrones - Jon III

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky … but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

The largest structure ever built by the hands of man, Benjen Stark had told Jon on the kingsroad when they had first caught sight of the Wall in the distance. "And beyond a doubt the most useless," Tyrion Lannister had added with a grin, but even the Imp grew silent as they rode closer. You could see it from miles off, a pale blue line across the northern horizon, stretching away to the east and west and vanishing in the far distance, immense and unbroken. This is the end of the world, it seemed to say.

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

 

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. "Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

Regarding the 'curtain of light,' I found another interesting passage for you to take a look at.  Shortly before Qhorin Halfhand's death at Jon's hand, Qhorin and Jon shelter in a hidden cave behind a wall of water, through which the moonlight casts a pale, shimmering strip in the shape of a sword.  Not quite certain what it means yet, although I'm sure there's some symbolism attached!  Notice that Qhorin calls Jon 'brother' and indeed they are Night's Watch brothers; so when Jon slays him, he's killing his brother.  I wonder if the Last Hero and the one he slayed in single combat were related?  Qhorin says there is 'a way through the heart of the mountain' -- via his own death!

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII

"I'll do as you say," Jon said reluctantly, "but . . . you will tell them, won't you? The Old Bear, at least? You'll tell him that I never broke my oath."

Qhorin Halfhand gazed at him across the fire, his eyes lost in pools of shadow. "When I see him next. I swear it." He gestured at the fire. "More wood. I want it bright and hot."

Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the flames. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red, and orange.

"Enough," Qhorin said abruptly. "Now we ride."

"Ride?" It was dark beyond the fire, and the night was cold. "Ride where?"

"Back." Qhorin mounted his weary garron one more time. "The fire will draw them past, I hope. Come, brother."

Jon pulled on his gloves again and raised his hood. Even the horses seemed reluctant to leave the fire. The sun was long gone, and only the cold silver shine of the half-moon remained to light their way over the treacherous ground that lay behind them. He did not know what Qhorin had in mind, but perhaps it was a chance. He hoped so. I do not want to play the oathbreaker, even for good reason.

They went cautiously, moving as silent as man and horse could move, retracing their steps until they reached the mouth of a narrow defile where an icy little stream emerged from between two mountains. Jon remembered the place. They had watered the horses here before the sun went down.

"The water's icing up," Qhorin observed as he turned aside, "else we'd ride in the streambed. But if we break the ice, they are like to see. Keep close to the cliffs. There's a crook a half mile on that will hide us." He rode into the defile. Jon gave one last wistful look to their distant fire, and followed.

The farther in they went, the closer the cliffs pressed to either side. They followed the moonlit ribbon of stream back toward its source. Icicles bearded its stony banks, but Jon could still hear the sound of rushing water beneath the thin hard crust.

A great jumble of fallen rock blocked their way partway up, where a section of the cliff face had fallen, but the surefooted little garrons were able to pick their way through. Beyond, the walls pinched in sharply, and the stream led them to the foot of a tall twisting waterfall. The air was full of mist, like the breath of some vast cold beast. The tumbling waters shone silver in the moonlight. Jon looked about in dismay. There is no way out. He and Qhorin might be able to climb the cliffs, but not with the horses. He did not think they would last long afoot.

"Quickly now," the Halfhand commanded. The big man on the small horse rode over the ice-slick stones, right into the curtain of water, and vanished. When he did not reappear, Jon put his heels into his horse and went after. His garron did his best to shy away. The falling water slapped at them with frozen fists, and the shock of the cold seemed to stop Jon's breath.

Then he was through; drenched and shivering, but through.

The cleft in the rock was barely large enough for man and horse to pass, but beyond, the walls opened up and the floor turned to soft sand. Jon could feel the spray freezing in his beard. Ghost burst through the waterfall in an angry rush, shook droplets from his fur, sniffed at the darkness suspiciously, then lifted a leg against one rocky wall. Qhorin had already dismounted. Jon did the same. "You knew this place was here."

"When I was no older than you, I heard a brother tell how he followed a shadowcat through these falls." He unsaddled his horse, removed her bit and bridle, and ran his fingers through her shaggy mane. "There is a way through the heart of the mountain. Come dawn, if they have not found us, we will press on. The first watch is mine, brother." Qhorin seated himself on the sand, his back to a wall, no more than a vague black shadow in the gloom of the cave. Over the rush of falling waters, Jon heard a soft sound of steel on leather that could only mean that the Halfhand had drawn his sword.

He took off his wet cloak, but it was too cold and damp here to strip down any further. Ghost stretched out beside him and licked his glove before curling up to sleep. Jon was grateful for his warmth. He wondered if the fire was still burning outside, or if it had gone out by now. If the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out. The moon shone through the curtain of falling water to lay a shimmering pale stripe across the sand, but after a time that too faded and went dark.

Sleep came at last, and with it nightmares. He dreamed of burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves. It was still dark when Qhorin woke him. While the Halfhand slept, Jon sat with his back to the cave wall, listening to the water and waiting for the dawn.

At break of day, they each chewed a half-frozen strip of horsemeat, then saddled their garrons once again, and fastened their black cloaks around their shoulders. During his watch the Halfhand had made a half-dozen torches, soaking bundles of dry moss with the oil he carried in his saddlebag. He lit the first one now and led the way down into the dark, holding the pale flame up before him. Jon followed with the horses. The stony path twisted and turned, first down, then up, then down more steeply. In spots it grew so narrow it was hard to convince the garrons they could squeeze through. By the time we come out we will have lost them, he told himself as they went. Not even an eagle can see through solid stone. We will have lost them, and we will ride hard for the Fist, and tell the Old Bear all we know.

But when they emerged back into the light long hours later, the eagle was waiting for them, perched on a dead tree a hundred feet up the slope. Ghost went bounding up the rocks after it, but the bird flapped its wings and took to the air.

Qhorin's mouth tightened as he followed its flight with his eyes.

"Here is as good a place as any to make a stand," he declared. "The mouth of the cave shelters us from above, and they cannot get behind us without passing through the mountain. Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?"

"Yes," he said.

"We'll feed the horses. They've served us bravely, poor beasts."

Jon gave his garron the last of the oats and stroked his shaggy mane while Ghost prowled restlessly amongst the rocks. He pulled his gloves on tighter and flexed his burnt fingers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

 

 

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

If there were other magical gateways at other forts; Old Nan would probably be telling spooky stories about them as well.   Mind you there could be another portal in the crypts at Winterfell not unlike the one at the House of Undying and the Wall given the sword imagery of the Wall and the Stark ancestral sword Ice.   Although I think the valyrian sword is better described as the ancestral sword of the Lords of Winterfell rather than the Kings of Winter in their crypts.    Starks only become the Kings of Winter upon death which is rather suggestive with the iron swords acting as a ward to keep the souls of the kings imprisoned.   The Wall as counterpart, a sword across the landscape keeping the soul of ice confined.

The Starks are wardens of the north for the living and the dead; their destiny and perhaps their curse of the frozen hell reserved for Starks tied together with the Wall and Winterfell.   If Winter is the ancient enemy; how does one become it's king? Only by defeating Winter and only upon death.  Only the dead can lead an undead army.  I think this points to the story of the Last Hero who was perhaps the first King of Winter followed by a long line of kings in the crypts of Winterfell.  

And now Jon is dead, dead, dead and by way of succession; at least by the inclusion of Lyanna's statue in the crypts; Jon, the Great Bastard is a king of winter or as Melisandre refers to the enemy, the Great Other.  The very strange thing about it is that Jon is also R'hllor's instrument according to Melisandre.   How could the King of the Others be R'hllor's instrument?

Addendum:  To add to the prospect that Jon is a king's son; consider the following:

 

What's your current theory about why Lyanna is included in the crypts; and why would Lyanna's children be ahead of Ned's children in the succession?

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not convinced about this one at all and can't think of anything in the text to support it. Indeed the first reference to Kings of Winter is when Robb is proclaimed King in the North; all except Maege Mormont, who proclaims him King of Winter - at a time of course when he is very much alive. Similarly, in going through the crypts, Bran only notes the older ones as King of Winter.

If there's a significance to the change in title, I'd suggest its more likely that the Nights King was the last King of Winterfell and that after he was overthrown the Stark Lords of Winterfell styled themselves Kings in the North instead.

Wouldn't Torrhen Stark have been the last King of Winter?  After all, he gave up the Crown of the King of Winter to the Targaryens.  I'm wondering whether Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Queen of Winter, at least symbolically when he gave her the frosty blue crown of Winter roses, a gesture which might very well have ushered in the 'false Spring', as well as perhaps giving her back the original crown of the King of Winter.  If she's the Queen of Winter, her son would be the new heir!

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head.

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

As they waited in Riverrun's Great Hall for the prisoner to be brought before them, she saw Robb push back the crown so it rested upon the thick auburn mop of his hair; moments later, he moved it forward again; later he gave it a quarter turn, as if that might make it sit more easily on his brow. It is no easy thing to wear a crown, Catelyn thought, watching, especially for a boy of fifteen years.

The crown is uncomfortable because it doesn't really fit him -- because he like the crown is a fake King of Winter!

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Torrhen's scouts had seen the ruins of Harrenhal, where slow, red fires still burned beneath the rubble. The King in the North had heard many accounts of the Field of Fire as well. He knew that the same fate might await him if he tried to force a crossing of the river. Some of his lords bannermen urged him to attack all the same, insisting that Northern valor would carry the day. Others urged him to fall back to Moat Cailin and make his stand there on Northern soil. The king's bastard brother Brandon Snow offered to cross the Trident alone under cover of darkness, to slay the dragons whilst they slept.

King Torrhen did send Brandon Snow across the Trident. But he crossed with three maesters by his side, not to kill but to treat. All through the night messages went back and forth. The next morning, Torrhen Stark himself crossed the Trident. There upon the south bank of the Trident, he knelt, laid the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter at Aegon's feet, and swore to be his man. He rose as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, a king no more. From that day to this day, Torrhen Stark is remembered as the King Who Knelt...but no Northman left his burned bones beside the Trident, and the swords Aegon collected from Lord Stark and his vassals were not twisted or melted or bent.

Aerys broke the pact of his ancestor Aegon when he burnt Rickard alive in his armor and tortured Brandon to death.  Perhaps the Kings of Winter have been on the rise ever since then.  

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

According to Old Nan's version of the story the Nights King was overthrown by his brother the Stark of Winterfell - who may well have been his younger brother since he's not referred to as a king.

Something worth considering is that if the Long Night and the Long Winter are synonymous then the Nights King and King of Winter may be too.

Indeed.  And since the Nights King is a kind of 'undead' creature, having given up his life, soul, and seed to the icy pale enchantress, then @LynnS has a good point about the rite of passage for a King of Winter being death!  This would also jibe with @LmL's 'zombie skinchanger' theory for the King of Winter.

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.   They can erase history and disassociate themselves from the Night's King but the frozen hell that waits for Starks isn't removed by changing from the King of Winter to the Kings of the North.  What has happened is that the line of kings is broken; neither the remains of Rob nor Eddard are locked in their crypts and the Stark line has been usurped.  So now winter is coming seeming to activate in part at Winterfell.

Interestingly, parallel with the usurpation and occupation of Winterfell by the Boltons, and the desecration of Rob's and Ned's 'viciously re-circulating' bones (sweetsunray's astute application of Joyce), Bran timeously 'arrives' at Winterfell to take up greenseer residence in the heart tree.  So there is indeed a Stark in -- literally in -- Winterfell!  You might also argue that Bran has already been locked in his 'frozen hell' in the 'timeless' cave of skulls -- where the cave is untouched by moonlight, nor sunlight, nor 'the iron circles of time'.  When Bran passes through the Wall, he undergoes a symbolic death.  With the 'sword of the Wall' lying horizontal above him as he passes beneath, he might as well be entombed in a crypt of sorts!  In fact, Bran remarks that he has the sensation of having fallen down a hole (allusion to Alice in Wonderland) and straight into one of Nan's horror stories.  Being locked in the clutches of the weir tree is also an imprisonment.  Bloodraven graphically represents this imprisonment, or sacrifice for power, not only with his Odinesque one eye, but also in how he has been physically bound, pinioned, skewered by the weirwood roots -- a metaphor for being transfixed in time in a kind of living hell.

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I think the Last Hero was the first King of Winter transformed by the CotF to withstand the killing cold perhaps something along the lines of Coldhands as has been the speculation. And I think he went back north with the undead army trapped beyond the curtain of light.  In the heart of winter.  

Where do you think this 'curtain of light' is in relation to Bloodraven's cave?!

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There is always a price to pay for sorcery and I don't think the LH was any exception.  The price is being being paid by his bloodline.   Their souls are forfeit, this is one of the controls, that winter has a king.   Now there is no King of Winter to control the forces of winter.  Unless Jon is meant to take up that role. This is perhaps the reason that Howland Reed saved Ned's life specifically for Jon's protection and Bran's birth.  We have the metaphorical killing of dawn at the ToJ and now the line of kings is broken.

Can you explain how the Stark line of kings has been broken in connection to the 'killing of Dawn'?

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So now the storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death is unleashed.  The wall is the last line of defense as winter slams into it full force at the end of DwD. 

Jon and Bran have to defeat winter all over again, as it was in the beginning - 'now it begins, now it ends." But I suspect that Jon may use that army for vengeance.  Woe to the Freys and the Boltons.

I like the idea of Jon and Bran doing it together.  I hate the notion of either of them killing the other.  I think part of releasing the Starks from the 'Stark curse' that besets them is for the brothers to refrain from killing one another -- which was the evil pattern in the past (the kinslayer and kingslayer is accursed).

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think we are getting some hint of birth order when the direwolves are discovered.  Ghost's eyes are opened and this implies birth order, an older pup.  I still maintain that the statues in the crypts indicate the line of succession with Lyanna's progeny taking precedence had she lived.  Ned has literally buried that secret.  To quote GRRM in his last blog post comment section:  He's not telling, he's showing.

Good point about the open eyes indicating birth order.  It's also interesting that Bran had to open Jon's third eye, and not vice versa, considering Bran is Jon's younger brother (unless Jon is the three-eyed crow, of course...).  What this is indicating (beyond serving to tie us in time-travelling knots when it comes to interpreting the 'weirwood sapling dream' ) is that Bran/Summer has to restore Jon/Ghost (by nurturing him, not opposing him) to his proper place in the pack -- as leader and king.  Ghost is the king of direwolves as Nymeria is their queen (no, that doesn't mean Jon and Arya ought to 'get it on'!) and Summer is the Prince of the Green, not necessarily a King.  If he's a king, he's the one who brings the Summer by sacrificing himself to restore the natural order that has been perverted.

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  This moment is also telling:

What this tells me is that Ned is not Jon's father since he doesn't include him as his own child in his private thoughts.  Then he wonders what Catelyn would do if Jon took precedence over the children of her body.  Ned hopes he never finds out.    

It's time Lady Stoneheart is put to rest.  She's even more intransigent in death than she was in life.  Even Brienne can intuit more emotional nuance than her at his point!

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

To both above - I know these things. My answer was strictly in response to Jon having to be dead in order to be King of Winter. If the King of Winter has to be dead and Robb is older than Jon, then Robb would be the dead King of Winter...unless Jon is older. Kapeesh?

Perhaps the criterion is not being dead per se, but being 'undead' -- i.e. having died and been magically resurrected.  Robb couldn't have a second life because he was vain and idiotic enough to separate himself from his wolf and not heed Grey Wind's messages (e.g. the balking and howling on the bridge; his dislike of the Spicer/Westerling clan's smell, etc.), imprisoning the wolf and resulting in Grey Wind's death.  To quote @LmL, the direwolf is the 'spirit vessel' for the King of Winter.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

To both above - I know these things. My answer was strictly in response to Jon having to be dead in order to be King of Winter. If the King of Winter has to be dead and Robb is older than Jon, then Robb would be the dead King of Winter...unless Jon is older. Kapeesh?

Kapeesh, but I still see no reason for death being a necessary precondition for being King of Winter. There's no hint of that in Bran's tour of the crypt or anywhere else.

And Robb was neither dying, dead, nor resurrected when Maege Mormont proclaimed him thus

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Yes, this is an interesting point.  And I also like this a lot better than the B-movie Night's King we got on the show.

Something that occurred to me some time ago. I really don't know why I haven't mentioned it before.

[Brad Stark]

When there was a Marsh King, Red King, Warg King and Barrow King, the Starks were not King of The North, as there were several other kings in the North.  Only after conquering the entire North did they call themselves King of the North. 

King of The North along with "Winter is comming" was a reference to the Starks either being protectors from winter and cold, or thriving in winter and cold.  The 2 are not nessesarily exclusive. 

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Something worth considering is that if the Long Night and the Long Winter are synonymous then the Nights King and King of Winter may be too.

 The long night and the long winter are the same thing.  Every winter is a long night depending on how far north you live.  What distinguishes one fro another is a matter of degree and while Old Nan sometimes mixes up her Brans or changes the details of the stories sometimes; it seems likely to me that one long night can be confused with another in the stories. 

Which is why I think the story of the Last Hero and the Night's King are two different events.  Old Nan's story of the Last Hero and the battle for the dawn with it's undead armies, snows falling hundreds of feet deep for a generation and children living in the dark from birth to death sounds like the something entirely different from Old Nan's stories of the Night's King although they both occur during winter or the long night. 

I think the story of the LH marks the end of the original conflict between the CotF and the FM followed by the Pact, the division of lands, the creation of the Wall and the formation of the Night's Watch, most likely a religious order of soldier priests and the founding of Winterfell.

So we have Bran's version:

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

Bran's fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. "But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said."

The First Men may have arrived 12,000 years in the past; but that doesn't mean that the events of the LH occurred upon arrival, probably much later.   The first appearance of agriculture occurred in mankind's history around 8,000 years ago although it's estimated that man's arrival in North America occurred around 14,000 years ago and it took paleolithic people many thousands of years to populate North and South America.  I don't see the waves of migration of the First Men any differently. 

What is interesting is that the Pact began four thousands years of friendship.  When did that friendship end?  I think that occurs when the Andals arrive and the Night's King is overthrown.  If there are fuzzy timelines of 4,000 years for the Andals, I'll have to go with that date. Primariy because Mormont pegs the last great threat to mankind at 8,000 years which I think gives us the date for the Pact and the events of the LH ending the conflict.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child's folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother's birthright? I have no right to this, he thought, no more than to Ice. He twitched his burned fingers, feeling a throb of pain deep under the skin. "My lord, you honor me, but—"

"Spare me your but's, boy," Lord Mormont interrupted. "I would not be sitting here were it not for you and that beast of yours. You fought bravely … and more to the point, you thought quickly. Fire! Yes, damn it. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night's Watch does not remember, who will?"

 

 

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, JNR said:

Yes, this is an interesting point.  And I also like this a lot better than the B-movie Night's King we got on the show.

LOL!  After giving some thought to your comments on the Wall; I'll revise my narrative somewhat.  I don't think it's entirely out of the question the men contributed to the building of the Wall.  Although I think the foundation ice was put down with magic running east to west as Black Crow suggests and so it's original height was much lower.  I don't think the Watch had much to do with it until the arrival of the Andals because I don't think the Watch had the manpower or the knowledge for such a feat.  At most I'd say the original NW was no more than a hundred men strong; corresponding to the hundred kingdoms and the hundred pieces of dragonglass; one for each kingdom.

I don't give the story of Queen Nymeria sending defeated kings and their armies in a grand procession to the Wall much credit.  There is far too much romance in that song and I think it's more likely that they bent the knee and returned to their own lands.  That song sounds a little too much like a propagandist, recruitment piece to me.  Recalling Jon's bitterness about the truth of the Wall and the need to send a singer with Sam for recruitment purposes.  The grand procession of the Kings the Wall in Nymeria's time sounds like an embellishment that came later.

Alhough I do think it's possible that the Watch once had 10,000 men at it's apex and they were responsible for building the 18 castles along the Wall excluding the original Night Fort.  10,000 men can't be kept idle and so it does seem likely to me that they were employed adding blocks of ice to the height of the Wall.   However, in the end the Wall continues to build itself and can only stand without collapsing from it's own weight because it is a magical structure.      

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

What's your current theory about why Lyanna is included in the crypts; and why would Lyanna's children be ahead of Ned's children in the succession?

A very interesting post RR.  As I have to run errands; I'll respond to this point and come back to you on the others.  

I don't think it's Lyanna's progeny specifically that takes precedence over Ned; but the circumstances of Jon's birth and the status of his sire that makes the difference.  This is the truth that Ned knows.  Placing her statue in the crypts where she shouldn't be acknowledges Jon's place in the line of succession.  I doubt that Lyanna asked him to bury her in the crypts or that he did it because he loved her so much.  

As I mentioned in quotes upthread; there is a strong suggestion that Jon has royal blood and that can only mean Rhaegar or Robert as far as Lya's song goes.   The only precedent for making Jon the Lord of Winterfell a great bastard qualified to inherit such titles is for the father to acknowledge him and remove the taint.  That's not really possible in Rhaegar's case but it would be in Robert's case.  If Lyanna had lived, there is no doubt she would have wed Robert; but since she died, Robert is compelled to marry someone else.  For the love of his son, Robert would have made him a great bastard and the next Lord of Winterfell suitable for his position and royal blood. 

This is the truth that Ned has buried and the source of his shame and guilt about Jon.  It's also the source of his shame at Robert's deathbed when in his private thoughts; he acknowledges that he lied to Robert and kept the truth from him.  It's Jon that Ned is hiding.  If Rhaegar had been Jon's father; I doubt that Ned would have felt that kind of guilt at keeping that secret from Robert.  Instead, Ned has denied Jon his birthright and condemned him to bastardy with few prospects and eventually the Wall. Instead he literally buries the truth in the crypts and acknowledges Jon place in this way.

Jon's life most certainly would have been in peril if he was openly acknowledged as Robert's son; not only from Cersei Lannister but potentially from Ned's own wife. It's also an irony that his uncle Stannis offers to make Jon a great bastard and give him Winterfell.

 

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think the story of the LH marks the end of the original conflict between the CotF and the FM followed by the Pact, the division of lands, the creation of the Wall and the formation of the Night's Watch, most likely a religious order of soldier priests and the founding of Winterfell.

So we have Bran's version:

 

The First Men may have arrived 12,000 years in the past; but that doesn't mean that the events of the LH occurred upon arrival, probably much later.   The first appearance of agriculture occurred in mankind's history around 8,000 years ago although it's estimated that man's arrival in North America occurred around 14,000 years ago and it took paleolithic people many thousands of years to populate North and South America.  I don't see the waves of migration of the First Men any differently. 

What is interesting is that the Pact began four thousands years of friendship.  When did that friendship end?  I think that occurs when the Andals arrive and the Night's King is overthrown.  If there are fuzzy timelines of 4,000 years for the Andals, I'll have to go with that date. Primariy because Mormont pegs the last great threat to mankind at 8,000 years which I think gives us the date for the Pact and the events of the LH ending the conflict.

I don't see the Pact being the same time the Wall was started.  The Wall took hundreds of years to complete, why build it if the Children were friends unless it was to guard against another enemy such as the Others.  The problem with it being a defense against the Others is they were first seen during the Long Night, so we'd see the Long Night immediately follow the pact, which makes no sense if the Children brought it.

My theory is Bran the Breaker was a pact breaker, which brought the Long Night and the Nights King was the first Other after his wife. 

Our world  has had 10000 years of civilization,  I believe Planetos has had much longer, so they couldhave had agriculture 20,000 years or longer.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  After giving some thought to your comments on the Wall; I'll revise my narrative somewhat.  I don't think it's entirely out of the question the men contributed to the building of the Wall.  Although I think the foundation ice was put down with magic running east to west as Black Crow suggests and so it's original height was much lower.  I don't think the Watch had much to do with it until the arrival of the Andals because I don't think the Watch had the manpower or the knowledge for such a feat.  At most I'd say the original NW was no more than a hundred men strong; corresponding to the hundred kingdoms and the hundred pieces of dragonglass; one for each kingdom.

I don't give the story of Queen Nymeria sending defeated kings and their armies in a grand procession to the Wall much credit.  There is far too much romance in that song and I think it's more likely that they bent the knee and returned to their own lands.  That song sounds a little too much like a propagandist, recruitment piece to me.  Recalling Jon's bitterness about the truth of the Wall and the need to send a singer with Sam for recruitment purposes.  The grand procession of the Kings the Wall in Nymeria's time sounds like an embellishment that came later.

Alhough I do think it's possible that the Watch once had 10,000 men at it's apex and they were responsible for building the 18 castles along the Wall excluding the original Night Fort.  10,000 men can't be kept idle and so it does seem likely to me that they were employed adding blocks of ice to the height of the Wall.   However, in the end the Wall continues to build itself and can only stand without collapsing from it's own weight because it is a magical structure.      

Timelines are fuzzy but we can make some assumptions and put events into perspective. 

I don't think we can put building the Wall recent enough for it to have been a defense against the Andals.  My assumption has been the Watch has been in decline since it was used for its original purpose,  whether to defend against Others or something else.  If it was 300 men guarding against a foe that hasn't been seen in a thousand years, I don't see it increasing to thousands of men.

Nymeria is relatively recent,  probably recent enough that records were written on paper.   I am not saying the number sent to the Wall couldn't be exaggerated,  just that it would be exaggerated the same way today as when it happened.   As opposed to something from Bran the Builder's time, where the number of men could increase every time the story is told, and 100 men could slowly become 1000.

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't see the Pact being the same time the Wall was started.  The Wall took hundreds of years to complete, why build it if the Children were friends unless it was to guard against another enemy such as the Others.  The problem with it being a defense against the Others is they were first seen during the Long Night, so we'd see the Long Night immediately follow the pact, which makes no sense if the Children brought it.

My theory is Bran the Breaker was a pact breaker, which brought the Long Night and the Nights King was the first Other after his wife. 

Our world  has had 10000 years of civilization,  I believe Planetos has had much longer, so they couldhave had agriculture 20,000 years or longer.

Old Nan does say that the Last Hero was hunted by the dead and that when the others were defeated they went back north.  So that would be a good reason to need the Wall.  The old heresy about the others and the killing cold is that the CotF used that magic as a last line of defense since they were being slaughtered and were losing the war.  However, as we are told, sorcery is a sword without a hilt and no safe way to grasp it.  So it may be that they lost control of their weapon and everyone was both side were being annihilated     The LH/CotF alliance a last ditch combined effort to bring the conflict to an end.  I still think it's a pretty good explanation.  So considering that there is a potential army of the dead held at bay for the time being; a Wall to stop their advance at any time makes some sense. 

I do like the idea about Bran the Breaker since I think that combines with Ravenous Reader's notion of kinslaying and kingslayers.  But I still the story of the LH is the first occurrence of the killing cold, a long night that lasted a generation and the Night's King is another Long Night altogether with an entirely different set of circumstances around it.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Timelines are fuzzy but we can make some assumptions and put events into perspective. 

I don't think we can put building the Wall recent enough for it to have been a defense against the Andals.  My assumption has been the Watch has been in decline since it was used for its original purpose,  whether to defend against Others or something else.  If it was 300 men guarding against a foe that hasn't been seen in a thousand years, I don't see it increasing to thousands of men.

Nymeria is relatively recent,  probably recent enough that records were written on paper.   I am not saying the number sent to the Wall couldn't be exaggerated,  just that it would be exaggerated the same way today as when it happened.   As opposed to something from Bran the Builder's time, where the number of men could increase every time the story is told, and 100 men could slowly become 1000.

Yes, I agree.  As to building the Wall as a combination of magic and blood, sweat and tears; by any stretch it would take a very long time.  It's very difficult to know how many men were at the Wall at any one time.  I'm inclined to think it was a very small group of men, a religious order of a type with representation from each of the 100 kingdoms.  So 100 men at any one time before the political landscape changes.  It brings to mind the Fiery Hand of R'hllor, 1000 priests, no more or less and one flame goes out, another takes it's place.  It's very hard to know. Round numbers like 10,000 men seem somewhat suspicious but not out of the question.  That would be 500 or so men at each fort along the Wall.    

[Brad Stark]

While on the subject of timelines,  I found something recently I wish I knew about for our timelines thread - The Thousand Years War.  Oral history tells of a single war lasting a thousand years between The Kings of Winter and The Barrow Kings, but runes show several wars over 200 years total.  So GRRM has directly confirmed oral history exaggerated timelines by a factor of 5,  it is just a question of whether this applies to other events and I think it does.