Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

[Black Crow]

Also worth remembering Mors Umber - Crowsfood - with his dragonglass eye.

[Brad Stark]

37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

After Euron fell off the cliffs at Pike; he asked the Maester if it was possible to fly.  I suspect neurological damage and head trauma.  He didn't actully lose an eye.  I think the pupil is permanently extended requiring the use of patch; sometimes black, sometimes red to block the sunlight.  (The Blackfyre colors!)  It suggests that he was in a coma and tested by the 3EC. It suggest that's he's a failed greenseer.  In WoW, he no longer covers his crow's eye and he's called Bloodeye.  Along with his personal sigil, that's very suggestive of Bloodraven.

Could he have literally jumped off a cliff because he dreamt of flying?

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Could he have literally jumped off a cliff because he dreamt of flying?

Yes I do and think this is also how the 3 'prentice boys died in the story of the Thing that comes in the Night.  But I'll save that for Black Crow's discussion of Old Nan's tales.   That's how you put someone in a coma and make it possible to enter their mind.  Changing the state of consciousness, dreams, drugs, comas.  Mind you Bran was pushed and Euron may have been climbing the cliffs and fallen off.  It's worth noting that Jaime used to climbs the cliffs at Casterly Rock until Tywin put a stop to it.

[cgrav]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I suspect he's been riding Euron since he was a child and making it easier each time he invades Euron's mind.  A thrall is slave.

I think both explanations provide some answers. A long term influence explains why Euron set out on his long journey and found a dragon's egg, and an attempt at brute force skinchanging explains why Euron went crazy at sea. 

I suppose it could just as easily be both: Young Euron got the 3ER visions and followed their advice for a long time, and then went rogue after getting the dragon's egg and realizing he could keep it for himself. At that point BR could have tried to skinchange Euron to keep the mission on track, but was not able to take him over completely. 

The Ironborn being one of the special bloodlines (I suspect possibly the original GEotD migrants), it makes sense that Euron would have some innate resistance. 

Although I do question: is Bloodraven actually able to skinchange, or is he limited to more subtle forms of mental influence? Seems like it would open up a lot of plot holes if he could just jump into anyone's mind when he wanted.

[Brad Stark]

Is Bran able to jump into anyone's mind and control them?  We haven't been told for certain, and it would open a lot of plot holes.  More likely Hodor is special. 

I don't see BR controlling Euron or doing more than he did with Bran.  I suspect Euron's madness may be more logical than we think.  Suppose he hears voices.  Wouldn't that explain muting everyone on his ship, so he can be certain it isn't them talking.   He is either someone BR reached out to, or maybe even someone he failed to reach.

[cgrav]

21 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Is Bran able to jump into anyone's mind and control them?  We haven't been told for certain, and it would open a lot of plot holes.  More likely Hodor is special. 

I don't see BR controlling Euron or doing more than he did with Bran.  I suspect Euron's madness may be more logical than we think.  Suppose he hears voices.  Wouldn't that explain muting everyone on his ship, so he can be certain it isn't them talking.   He is either someone BR reached out to, or maybe even someone he failed to reach.

Hodor's feeblemindedness is the only thing that makes him special, as far as we know. It just makes it a lot easier to invade his mind than a full-minded person. And the first few times he skinchanges Hodor, he senses Hodor's terror (going so far as to say he can taste the vomit in the back of Hodor's throat). 

The muting of the sailors serves a practical purpose, which is to avoid to spread of rumors/news. Someone who travels with a dragon egg has every reason to keep his crew from blabbing at port. Probably also prevents defection and mutiny. That's not to say there isn't some other purpose, as well, and the one you suggest also makes perfect sense in the context of Euron.

There's probably some thematic/symbolic significance to the silence, as well, but I'd have to do more thinking on it than I've got time for at the moment. Silent sailors, silent sisters, silent direwolf, silent Wex... something's there, but I just can't say what it is.

[Black Crow]

Why was Bran targeted by the Crow in the first place? Bloodraven tells him he had been watched from birth and we have speculated that it was the crows who lured him up the tower, but why? A Stark says you, but why him out of so many Starks?

Similarly, as to Bloodraven before him, he is after all a Blackwood of Raventree Hall, but...

Where would Euron fit in?

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

There's probably some thematic/symbolic significance to the silence, as well, but I'd have to do more thinking on it than I've got time for at the moment. Silent sailors, silent sisters, silent direwolf, silent Wex... something's there, but I just can't say what it is.

Goes with blindness, as in Arya's training and the business of the third eye. This isn't a glib response. I don't know what the answer is either but I am suggesting they are linked as a theme

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Why was Bran targeted by the Crow in the first place? Bloodraven tells him he had been watched from birth and we have speculated that it was the crows who lured him up the tower, but why? A Stark says you, but why him out of so many Starks?

Similarly, as to Bloodraven before him, he is after all a Blackwood of Raventree Hall, but...

Where would Euron fit in?

It's a good question. 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"I will," Sam promised. "I will add my voice to yours, maester. We will both tell them, the two of us together."

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected.  For all these years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned  I am too old. I am dying, Sam." Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children? What if the horselords have the truth of it? Will I ride through the night sky forever on a stallion made of flame? Or must I return again to this vale of sorrow? Who can say, truly? Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know."

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Some books. I like the fighting stories. My sister Sansa likes the kissing stories, but those are stupid."

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

 

Is Bran a reader? Someone who has lived a thousand lives?  Bran has been beyond the Wall of Death to see what lies beyond it as well as the 3EC who shows it to him.  Maester Aemon and Bloodraven have both been lingering, waiting and watching for the same thing?

The CotF have also been waiting for the Bran boy:
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"The First Men named us children," the little woman said. "The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Our name in the True Tongue means those who sing the song of earth. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years."

Meera said, "You speak the Common Tongue now."

"For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."

"Two hundred years?" said Meera.

 

 

 

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Why was Bran targeted by the Crow in the first place? Bloodraven tells him he had been watched from birth and we have speculated that it was the crows who lured him up the tower, but why? A Stark says you, but why him out of so many Starks?

Similarly, as to Bloodraven before him, he is after all a Blackwood of Raventree Hall, but...

Where would Euron fit in?

We don't have evidence the other Starks weren't watched, to the contrary,  the direwolves suggest they were.  All of them develop a warg bond, Sansa's is limited because of how soon her wolf dies, but all have various degrees of Warg-ness.  Bran is the strongest.  Suppose he died in the fall, would Rickon become a greenseer?  Or maybe Bran is the only one beyond the threshold of how much you need.

I've been trying to find evidence BR crippled Bran, but I can't and ultimately it doesn't make sense.  The crows could have led him, but they'd have to know what he'd see and what would happen.  What if Jamie smashed Bran's skull before pushing him?  What if he landed slightly different and died?  Or just had a minor injury?  Why cripple him this early?  Wouldn't it be better to let him walk at least to escape Winterfell, if not the way to BRs cave?  Bran was crippled on purpose,  but GRRM is the one who is guilty.  BR doesn't have the same power or motivation. 

[Melifeather]

Not that I think it's very likely, but just throwing this out there: Bloodraven could have prepared Euron to be his host for a second life. His physical body has deteriorated, but his spirit is still strong. Bran will serve as a replacement greenseer for the Children, and Bloodraven's spirit could go into Euron rather than join the godhead. Maybe a powerful greenseer would be able to influence their host? 

[Brad Stark]

8 hours ago, cgrav said:

Hodor's feeblemindedness is the only thing that makes him special, as far as we know. It just makes it a lot easier to invade his mind than a full-minded person.

I don't disagree.   But nonetheless,  his feeblemindedness prevents plot holes were Bran can jump into any character and control them.  I don't believe Euron is being skinchanged, but if he is, he could be feeble minded or otherwise mentally weak.  He clearly isn't right in the head, and it would fit GRRM to have a character who seems ridiculously powerful revealed as his mind is weaker than Hodor. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not that I think it's very likely, but just throwing this out there: Bloodraven could have prepared Euron to be his host for a second life. His physical body has deteriorated, but his spirit is still strong. Bran will serve as a replacement greenseer for the Children, and Bloodraven's spirit could go into Euron rather than join the godhead. Maybe a powerful greenseer would be able to influence their host? 

That's what I'm thinking as well.  The tall and twisted thing with ten long arms could be Bloodraven in his tree with ten long branches, Euron Crow's Eye could be his instrument or vessel as much as Jon could be R'hllor's instrument or vessel.  BR couldn't be a greenseer if he didn't have the third eye capabilities of 1 in 1,000 skinchangers.  He has to be exceptional in some way.  Perhaps he will be the one to skinchange a dragon.  

There are also two prophecies that seem similar, maybe even three.  AA, the PwiP and the Stallion who Mounts the World.  Euron sounds like the stallion who mounts the world riding his seahorses on a sea of blood.  Jon may very well be AA born in salt and smoke (the Saltpans and smoking beehives?), Dany the PwiP reborn amidst smoke and salt tears (MMD's tent ritual).  

Dragons true and false...   beware kindly old men.  Some of them aren't what they seem.  

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

 

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Griff, with his young prince. Could all that talk of the Golden Company sailing west have been a feint? Tyrion considered saying something, then thought better. It seemed to him that the prophecy that drove the red priests had room for just one hero. A second Targaryen would only serve to confuse them. "Have you seen these others in your fires?" he asked, warily.

"Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

The hairs on the back of Tyrion's neck began to prickle. Prince Aegon will find no friend here. The red priest spoke of ancient prophecy, a prophecy that foretold the coming of a hero to deliver the world from darkness. One hero. Not two. Daenerys has dragons, Aegon does not. The dwarf did not need to be a prophet himself to foresee how Benerro and his followers might react to a second Targaryen. Griff will see that too, surely, he thought, surprised to find how much he cared.

 

Bran may be like Tyrion, snarling in the midst of things, The One who brings the dawn.  I suspect the crows that lured Bran are the agents of CotF rather than Bloodraven.

 

       

[LynnS]

We could also question why Leaf went out into the world for 200 years. Was it because they didn't have a human greenseer to watch the affairs of men.  Was it to find a human greenseer?  What of Mormont's raven?  Is it Bloodraven who watches the affairs at the Wall or Leaf who learned the common tongue?

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Why was Bran targeted by the Crow in the first place?

If Jon is the three eyed crow a I suspect, rather than the three eye-raven; then it's Jon who chose Bran among the Stark kids.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's what I'm thinking as well.  The tall and twisted thing with ten long arms could be Bloodraven in his tree with ten long branches, Euron Crow's Eye could be his instrument or vessel as much as Jon could be R'hllor's instrument or vessel.  BR couldn't be a greenseer if he didn't have the third eye capabilities of 1 in 1,000 skinchangers.  He has to be exceptional in some way.  Perhaps he will be the one to skinchange a dragon.  

There are also two prophecies that seem similar, maybe even three.  AA, the PwiP and the Stallion who Mounts the World.  Euron sounds like the stallion who mounts the world riding his seahorses on a sea of blood.  Jon may very well be AA born in salt and smoke (the Saltpans and smoking beehives?), Dany the PwiP reborn amidst smoke and salt tears (MMD's tent ritual).  

Dragons true and false...   beware kindly old men.  Some of them aren't what they seem.  

 

 

Bran may be like Tyrion, snarling in the midst of things, The One who brings the dawn.  I suspect the crows that lured Bran are the agents of CotF rather than Bloodraven.

 

 

       

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

Great find! I'm referring to the passage directly above. Maybe the idea is not so far fetched after all.

[LynnS]

49 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Great find! I'm referring to the passage directly above. Maybe the idea is not so far fetched after all

  Also consider Aemon's question: who has seen beyond the wall of death?  You'd have to die first to know and that would be Jon who then shows Bran the heart of winter, in the coma dream.  Bran who is hovering between life and death and must make a choice to live or die.  

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

If Jon is the three eyed crow a I suspect, rather than the three eye-raven; then it's Jon who chose Bran among the Stark kids.

The question really is not who chose Bran and why - we can come up with a number of theories as to both - but rather that if Euron is to be considered another third eye candidate whether failed or otherwise, then what do he and Bran have in common?

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Is Bran able to jump into anyone's mind and control them?  We haven't been told for certain, and it would open a lot of plot holes.

I very much doubt it. Not only do we have absolutely zilch evidence of it, but on the one hand we do have Bran's POV story of how he subdued Hodor with some difficulty and on the other we have Varamyr, who has far more experience than Bran in taking over animals, trying and failing to take over Thistle. That's not to say it can't be done or that Bran won't ever attempt it, but clearly the effort involved is notable and not to be casually hurried over in the text, ie; if it ever happens we will know about it. 

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The question really is not who chose Bran and why - we can come up with a number of theories as to both - but rather that if Euron is to be considered another third eye candidate whether failed or otherwise, then what do he and Bran have in common?

We probably can't answer that until we know more about Euron and Bloodraven.  Bran is a warg.  Is there an equivalent among the dragons and the krakens?