Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I very much doubt it. Not only do we have absolutely zilch evidence of it, but on the one hand we do have Bran's POV story of how he subdued Hodor with some difficulty and on the other we have Varamyr, who has far more experience than Bran in taking over animals, trying and failing to take over Thistle. That's not to say it can't be done or that Bran won't ever attempt it, but clearly the effort involved is notable and not to be casually hurried over in the text, ie; if it ever happens we will know about it. 

I think you have to consider that Bran is a boy new to his powers while Bloodraven is quite old and has been wed to the tree and it's mysteries for a long time.  What Hodor and Euron may have in common is neurological damage. Hodor's mind has been damaged and weakened in some way.  We don't know how or if he was born that way.  We do know that he is only afraid at certain times and he's terrified of thunder and lightening.

We still don't know how or why Bloodraven ended up as a greenseer; only that he disappeared on a ranging.  We also know that the two biggest taboos are bringing the dead back to life and taking someone else's body. Bran knows it and keeps it a secret.  It's getting easier for him to ride Hodor.

[Black Crow]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think you have to consider that Bran is a boy new to his powers while Bloodraven is quite old and has been wed to the tree and it's mysteries for a long time.  What Hodor and Euron may have in common is neurological damage. Hodor's mind has been damaged and weakened in some way.  We don't know how or if he was born that way.  We do know that he is only afraid at certain times and he's terrified of thunder and lightening.

We still don't know how or why Bloodraven ended up as a greenseer; only that he disappeared on a ranging.  We also know that the two biggest taboos are bringing the dead back to life and taking someone else's body. Bran knows it and keeps it a secret.  It's getting easier for him to ride Hodor.

I remain wary of Bloodraven, or rather his importance. Whilst its easy to see him as the genius, evil or otherwise, manipulating everything, I'm inclined to question whether he and Bran are in fact prisoners.

[Melifeather]

52 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The question really is not who chose Bran and why - we can come up with a number of theories as to both - but rather that if Euron is to be considered another third eye candidate whether failed or otherwise, then what do he and Bran have in common?

Why would Euron need to have anything in common with Bran? His physical description and things he has done are the inversion of Bloodraven. It's as if Bloodraven himself were turned inside out. 

39 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We probably can't answer that until we know more about Euron and Bloodraven.  Bran is a warg.  Is there an equivalent among the dragons and the krakens?

Yes. I could have swore you yourself inserted a passage in this thread regarding ironborn skinchangers? Ah...I've found it. Ravenous Reader posted this on a separate thread:

A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

Aeron knew some Farwynds, a queer folk who held lands on the westernmost shores of Great Wyk and the scattered isles beyond, rocks so small that most could support but a single household. Of those, the Lonely Light was the most distant, eight days' sail to the northwest amongst rookeries of seals and sea lions and the boundless grey oceans. The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest. Some said they were skinchangers, unholy creatures who could take on the forms of sea lions, walruses, even spotted whales, the wolves of the wild sea.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I remain wary of Bloodraven, or rather his importance. Whilst its easy to see him as the genius, evil or otherwise, manipulating everything, I'm inclined to question whether he and Bran are in fact prisoners.

Well, there is not enough to go on.  I'm  not sure that BR is manipulating everything or that he won't try and make an escape of some sort.  

[Black Crow]

55 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, there is not enough to go on.  I'm  not sure that BR is manipulating everything or that he won't try and make an escape of some sort.  

On that we appear to be agreed, but there does appear to be a popular belief out there that Bloodraven is masterminding the fight against the Others and or a Targaryen restoration. I'm not convinced about an escape though. I think he is ready to die and was ready to die a long time ago. While Leaf says that he had waited long after his time for Bran, we might perhaps question how voluntary this really was and whether the three-fingered tree-huggers were keeping him alive until he could procure them a replacement.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

On that we appear to be agreed, but there does appear to be a popular belief out there that Bloodraven is masterminding the fight against the Others and or a Targaryen restoration. I'm not convinced about an escape though. I think he is ready to die and was ready to die a long time ago. While Leaf says that he had waited long after his time for Bran, we might perhaps question how voluntary this really was and whether the three-fingered tree-huggers were keeping him alive until he could procure them a replacement.

You have wonder how BR managed to be taken prisoner and pinioned to the tree.  We're given to understand that the roots grew throughout his body over a long period of time.   The nightmare illusion of giant grave worms with teeth sounds like something right out of Old Nan's tales.  Certainly the wights at the front door are keeping them prisoner.

 

[Lord Wraith]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I remain wary of Bloodraven, or rather his importance. Whilst its easy to see him as the genius, evil or otherwise, manipulating everything, I'm inclined to question whether he and Bran are in fact prisoners.

Agreed, I see the Children as the ones to be worried about not Bloodraven.

[LmL]

On 3/14/2017 at 10:48 AM, LynnS said:

I agree! Not only that, I think the hinges are connected to each other.  We see that in the House of Undying with not only a representation of the Black Gate; but the doors of the House of Black and White inside the HoU. The business of the poison well in the HoB@W; Arya curing her blindless by drinking from the well and the wierwood root/branch coming up through the well inside the Night Fort is all crooked stitching, if you ask me.

I haven't read LML's thread but hopefully he is game when Part II of the Wall essay - Hinges of the World is posted after Old Nan's tales.  I know there are a number of people eager to get in on that discussion as well.

Hi @LynnS! This has indeed been a fruitful line of inquiry - I'm almost embarrassed to say how far I have taken it in my fevered mania. I am very curious what you mean about the hinges being connected? Are you talking about Asshai and the Wall? Please expound...

ihaveatheoryaboutaportalbetweenthetwomoonsthereisaidit!!!!

[LmL]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

On that we appear to be agreed, but there does appear to be a popular belief out there that Bloodraven is masterminding the fight against the Others and or a Targaryen restoration. I'm not convinced about an escape though. I think he is ready to die and was ready to die a long time ago. While Leaf says that he had waited long after his time for Bran, we might perhaps question how voluntary this really was and whether the three-fingered tree-huggers were keeping him alive until he could procure them a replacement.

Hey BC, just dropping in here so pardon me, but I have been ruminating lately about who and what might be stuck inside the 'garth trap' of the weirwoodnet... my thoughts have turned to an old presence, old indeed if you know what I am saying... the whole bit about Winterfell being a stone tree and also a stone maze has me thinking about the minotaur idea, and this lead to further inquiry and well... I definitely think there is someone or multiple someones trapped in the net who may want to escape, or be escaping... sorry to be all vague but I don't want to dump a bunch of wacky speculation out of context. I just find your conversation here interesting. I don't think Bloodraven will be trying to bodysnatch, but I do think there is a presence in there trying to leak out, and this may have something to do with the creation of the Others. I'm also starting to worry about Jon's rebirth a little. Hitchhikers? Might be a problem. Or maybe the rumored / speculated "wight dragon" could be an appropriate vehicle.  

You know how much alien consciousnesses that possess are a theme of Lovecraft, and I think the weirwoodnet is influenced a bit by these ideas, although it's obviously built on a foundation of Yggdrasil and Odin. Anyway, we have been talking on my thread and a few others about who might have first gone into the weirwoodnet, who might have opened it up for use with their blood. Because "weir" and "garth" are interchangeable, and for other associated symbolic reasons, the idea of some sort of garth person / green man / horned lord figure having been the first seems to be suggesting itself. I tend to think this would be the truth behind the various rumors and myths about the Isle of Faces. You see what i am getting at... the screaming face on the weirwood, it seems like the face of whomever is trapped in there. I think that was not a cotf, but a "green man," whatever those are. Human greenseer, perhaps some human hybrid, a race of Cerrunos people, who knows. This person might also be thought of as Night's King or the original Azor Ahai, one or all of those. It's a cool idea right? Like a pissed off 8,000 year old magical version of Job from the Lawnmower Man. 

One thing that the show might have got right from the last season was (minor magical info spoiler)

showing the Night King as being able to find Bran (or others) inside the weirwoodnet.

It could be that Night's King (who I think was also 'Azor Ahai' in some sense.. perhaps just the same type of person or father son or same dude exactly, one of those) only exists inside of weirwoodnet at this point. So... inside the net we'd have Bloodraven on one side and Night's King or whomever - call it the great other - on the other side. That's another idea I have been picking up - signs of a fight inside of weirwoodnet. That could be what Symeon Star-Eyes seeing the hellhounds fight is all about, especially with @ravenous reader's see / sea pun and people's general inclination to view north of the Wall as under the sea... which is really under the see... so those hellhounds might be fighting inside the see is all I am saying. 

Thoughts?

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, LmL said:

Hi @LynnS! This has indeed been a fruitful line of inquiry - I'm almost embarrassed to say how far I have taken it in my fevered mania. I am very curious what you mean about the hinges being connected? Are you talking about Asshai and the Wall? Please expound...

ihaveatheoryaboutaportalbetweenthetwomoonsthereisaidit!!!!

My goodness LML!  There is nothing to be embarrassed about.  I think you are fascinating and a valued contributor!  Everything should be discussed wherever that leads.  As far as I'm concerned, nothing is decided at this point.   If you don't mind, I will hold off on the discussion of the Hinges until my scheduled essay after the next Heresy (Old Nan's Tales).  I'll be happy to flag you then.  But briefly, I think the Wall, the House of Black and White and the The House of Unyding are crossroads that lead to the same place in the otherworld.   There may be other hinges like Vaes Dothrak or Asshai but so far no evidence that they connect through gateways to each other.  They may even draw power from the reservoir of magic trapped in the Wall.  It will be an open discussion with probably more questions than answers; so I would like to know what other people think it means. 

[LmL]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My goodness LML!  There is nothing to be embarrassed about.  I think you are fascinating and a valued contributor!  Everything should be discussed wherever that leads.  As far as I'm concerned, nothing is decided at this point.   If you don't mind, I will hold off on the discussion of the Hinges until my scheduled essay after the next Heresy (Old Nan's Tales).  I'll be happy to flag you then.  But briefly, I think the Wall, the House of Black and White and the The House of Unyding are crossroads that lead to the same place in the otherworld.   There may be other hinges like Vaes Dothrak or Asshai but so far no evidence that they connect through gateways to each other.  They may even draw power from the reservoir of magic trapped in the Wall.  It will be an open discussion with probably more questions than answers; so I would like to know what other people think it means. 

So what I am seeing, in terms of symbolism now so don't take it too literally, is the idea of the weirwoods as a portal or a bridge between ice and fire, roughly speaking. In the sky, I am perceiving the transit of a meteor from the exploded 'dragon moon' or 'fire moon' into the surviving 'ice moon' being depicted as a portal type of thing. On the ground, this might look like Azor Ahai going into the weirwoodnet a creature of fire and coming out frozen (like 'frozen fire' icy Azor Ahai reborn Jon Snow, or maybe even as the NK, capable of making Others).

Basically, the weirwood is a classic cosmic world tree, which represents the apparent celestial axis from earth. The pole star is the top of the tree, the earth on its trunk, the roots in the underworld, that sort of thing. The stars appear to turn on an axis, so it's natural to imagine a 'world tree' (forgive my stating the obvious in order to build my line of reasoning). But, we also see a persistent association of the moon and the weirwoods, with the moon door in the eyrie to the HOBAW to the Black Gate which glows with milk and moonlight. So... in a world with two moons, imagine the weirwood as the axis on which the two moons appear to swing. The weirwood is a netherworld that lies between the ice and fire magical poles, in a sense. This can be seen as true in many ways that do not involve astronomy as well.

Consider the Teats, alternately called "Barbara's" or "Missy's" Teats, two large hills that are compared to boobs. In the middle of them is Pennytree, which thanks to @Pain killer Jane's analysis and further collaboration, seems to symbolize the weirwood in several ways. We don't need to go into that - you can see the model here of the cosmic tree in between the two teats, the two moons.  Moons are already feminine and milky and fertile so if you have two moons... well...   

ETA: in other words, I am looking not for literal portals, but symbols of portals where the entrance is fiery and the exit is icy. For example, Cat's ascent to the Eyrie. She goes through the Bloody Gate and gates of the moon, where we see fire and weirwood imagery, then she goes through a hazy trip up the mountain, they are in a tree tunnel, and a chimney, etc, and at the end, we have the icy Eyrie and the moon door. That's the portal exit, if you see my meaning. 

Jon at the Frostfangs with Qhorin: they burn some wood and the wood which "had been dead a long time" seemed to "live again in the flames" and gave birth to the whirling fiery dancers which I believe to be an important symbol of people resurrected through fire or some such. Then they go through the waterfall and into the mountain, come out in the cold to face bag of bones and Qhorin's death. 

Those are the sorts of things I am looking for. 

[Bluetiger]

7 minutes ago, LmL said:

So what I am seeing, in terms of symbolism now so don't take it too literally, is the idea of the weirwoods as a portal or a bridge between ice and fire, roughly speaking. In the sky, I am perceiving the transit of a meteor from the exploded 'dragon moon' or 'fire moon' into the surviving 'ice moon' being depicted as a portal type of thing. On the ground, this might look like Azor Ahai going into the weirwoodnet a creature of fire and coming out frozen (like 'frozen fire' icy Azor Ahai reborn Jon Snow, or maybe even as the NK, capable of making Others).

Basically, the weirwood is a classic cosmic world tree, which represents the apparent celestial axis from earth. The pole star is the top of the tree, the earth on its trunk, the roots in the underworld, that sort of thing. The stars appear to turn on an axis, so it's natural to imagine a 'world tree' (forgive my stating the obvious in order to build my line of reasoning). But, we also see a persistent association of the moon and the weirwoods, with the moon door in the eyrie to the HOBAW to the Black Gate which glows with milk and moonlight. So... in a world with two moons, imagine the weirwood as the axis on which the two moons appear to swing. The weirwood is a netherworld that lies between the ice and fire magical poles, in a sense. This can be seen as true in many ways that do not involve astronomy as well.

Consider the Teats, alternately called "Barbara's" or "Missy's" Teats, two large hills that are compared to boobs. In the middle of them is Pennytree, which thanks to @Pain killer Jane's analysis and further collaboration, seems to symbolize the weirwood in several ways. We don't need to go into that - you can see the model here of the cosmic tree in between the two teats, the two moons.  Moons are already feminine and milky and fertile so if you have two moons... well...   

ETA: in other words, I am looking not for literal portals, but symbols of portals where the entrance is fiery and the exit is icy. For example, Cat's ascent to the Eyrie. She goes through the Bloody Gate and gates of the moon, where we see fire and weirwood imagery, then she goes through a hazy trip up the mountain, they are in a tree tunnel, and a chimney, etc, and at the end, we have the icy Eyrie and the moon door. That's the portal exit, if you see my meaning. 

Jon at the Frostfangs with Qhorin: they burn some wood and the wood which "had been dead a long time" seemed to "live again in the flames" and gave birth to the whirling fiery dancers which I believe to be an important symbol of people resurrected through fire or some such. Then they go through the waterfall and into the mountain, come out in the cold to face bag of bones and Qhorin's death. 

Those are the sorts of things I am looking for. 

I'm starting to believe that we should keep in mind that all those coins probably have faces of kings on them. And they're nailed to the tree = trapped. So Pennytree is axis mundi with people trapped in it - namely kings - but I'm not sure which kings... Is the tree old enough to remember Bracken and Blackwood kings? Justmans, Mudds, Teagues? Tristifer the Hammer of Justice? Other river kings of old? Or more recent monarchs? Durrandons? Hoares? Targaryens? Baratheons?

We know that Pennytree was there at least for over 100 years - but the rest is hard to prove.

[LmL]

Just now, Blue Tiger said:

I'm starting to believe that we should keep in mind that all those coins probably have faces of kings on them. And they're nailed to the tree = trapped. So Pennytree is axis mundi with people trapped in it - namely kings - but I'm not sure which kings... Is the tree old enough to remember Bracken and Blackwood kings? Justmans, Mudds, Teagues? Tristifer the Hammer of Justice? Other river kings of old? Or more recent monarchs? Durrandons? Hoares? Targaryens? Baratheons?

We know that Pennytree was there at least for over 100 years - but the rest is hard to prove.

That's a great point. Before the targs, most of the gold coins had garth's face on it, fwiw, and I think it is the nicer coins that have faces - is it only the gold ones? Like I said, the coppers can be stars... which would probably imply dragons and / or the Others, the major falling star people in the story. We have the idea of pennies and dwarf pennies, thus the pennies could be children of the forest. 

I noticed today that the tomb of tristifer is covered by white bracken and wild roses, presumably red. His features are "carved," and best of all, there is a grove of ash around it, no lie, just like at Beric's resurrection. The hammer of justICE was a comet, called down with the aid of a weirwood, a pattern we think we've seen many times by now. 

[Bluetiger]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

That's a great point. Before the targs, most of the gold coins had garth's face on it, fwiw, and I think it is the nicer coins that have faces - is it only the gold ones? Like I said, the coppers can be stars... which would probably imply dragons and / or the Others, the major falling star people in the story. We have the idea of pennies and dwarf pennies, thus the pennies could be children of the forest. 

I noticed today that the tomb of tristifer is covered by white bracken and wild roses, presumably red. His features are "carved," and best of all, there is a grove of ash around it, no lie, just like at Beric's resurrection. The hammer of justICE was a comet, called down with the aid of a weirwood, a pattern we think we've seen many times by now. 

Oh yes... A tree full of copper stars is a perfect symbol for World Tree Yggdrasil and axis mundi in general... And a hint that GRRM knows that theory that Yggdrasil = Milky Way. 

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

You have wonder how BR managed to be taken prisoner and pinioned to the tree.  We're given to understand that the roots grew throughout his body over a long period of time.   The nightmare illusion of giant grave worms with teeth sounds like something right out of Old Nan's tales.  Certainly the wights at the front door are keeping them prisoner.

 

Fast forward a century and our grandchildren might well ask the same of Bran. Here and now we know that he has been stolen away by the faeries. The same, presumably, was true of Bloodraven, offered his heart's desire if he would only go to meet the Crow.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

...You know how much alien consciousnesses that possess are a theme of Lovecraft, and I think the weirwoodnet is influenced a bit by these ideas, although it's obviously built on a foundation of Yggdrasil and Odin. 

No apology necessary, but we have more immediate "possession" precedents in some of GRRM's earlier work and very specifically A Song for Lya.

1 hour ago, LmL said:

Anyway, we have been talking on my thread and a few others about who might have first gone into the weirwoodnet, who might have opened it up for use with their blood. Because "weir" and "garth" are interchangeable, and for other associated symbolic reasons, the idea of some sort of garth person / green man / horned lord figure having been the first seems to be suggesting itself. I tend to think this would be the truth behind the various rumors and myths about the Isle of Faces. You see what i am getting at... the screaming face on the weirwood, it seems like the face of whomever is trapped in there. I think that was not a cotf, but a "green man," whatever those are. Human greenseer, perhaps some human hybrid, a race of Cerrunos people, who knows.

As to the face on the weirwoods, that's exactly what I've been arguing for some time and yes those we see are mostly human. There's an interesting moment in ADwD when Asha Greyjoy and Aly Mormont come across a remote weirwood with a non-human [Singer?] face.

I really won't be surprised if at some point Bran and the Scoobies find the weirwood above the cave of skulls and recognise Bloodraven's face "carved" in it.

[LmL]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

No apology necessary, but we have more immediate "possession" precedents in some of GRRM's earlier work and very specifically A Song for Lya.

 

...right, and many of these ideas are no doubt influenced by Lovecraft, but that's neither here nor there... the point is is invasive consciousnesses are absolutely in play here... seems we agree on that.

 

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As to the face on the weirwoods, that's exactly what I've been arguing for some time and yes those we see are mostly human. There's an interesting moment in ADwD when Asha Greyjoy and Aly Mormont come across a remote weirwood with a non-human [Singer?] face.

I really won't be surprised if at some point Bran and the Scoobies find the weirwood above the cave of skulls and recognise Bloodraven's face "carved" in it.

Yes, I have always been a fan of this argument, that the faces are not cotf faces are were not even carved by them. The WF tree looks like Bran for a moment when Theon sees it in ADWD, does it not? I definitely think it is the face of someone trapped inside. In fact, I think it might be possible the trees do not have a distinct consciousness really, they are simply the host, and the "net" is really the mind of the people who have gone into it. They are all playing inside the mind of AA, something like that. Just speculation, but there it is. 

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

In fact, I think it might be possible the trees do not have a distinct consciousness really, they are simply the host, and the "net" is really the mind of the people who have gone into it. 

Very much what's going on with the Greeshka in a Song for Lya. 

[LmL]

44 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Very much what's going on with the Greeshka in a Song for Lya. 

Yes there is also a cool sci-fi series by Stephen Baxter called Otherworld that is similar - it turns out that

All of the strange reality that they live in is hosted on the mind of some strange mutant child with super telepathy that scientists launched into space on a space station. It's fucking weird. But the point is this gifted m ind acts as the host for the entire artificial reality they create, which is ultra vivid because it is created by a brain.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

On 3/3/2017 at 11:54 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

And they have left their hand/fist beyond the Wall

"I am the watcher on the walls" 

That part of the Oath could be the explanation for wall building discrepancies. The Watch wasn't originally stationed at the Wall at least the Wall as we know it today. The OG Watchmen took over the Wall and built it up over time.

Could be that the Wall was manned on both sides at the Nightfort location: the North Wall and the South Wall with one passage between. 

On 3/10/2017 at 1:02 AM, LynnS said:

Back to the Wall....

Does the Wall go from sea to sea or does it stop at the mountains?  Why don't  wights and white walkers bypass the Wall by going underneath as in the tale of Gendel and Gorne? If there is a way underneath the Wall, why don't the Wildlings use it?  What is it about salt water that stops the undead? 

While the physical Wall ends before the western sea, the demarcation of the Wall's magic runs around the globe like the Arctic Circle along a specific latitude, imo. The Wall is a physical marker of the boundary like any other fence, wall or hedgerow. 

On 3/10/2017 at 3:02 AM, LynnS said:

I have to go with the wall of ice crossing the tops of mountains because Jon says that Bran the Builder had to place them along the heights.  So yes from sea to sea with Forts on either end.  Anyone who lives far enough North; knows about black ice on the roads and the use of salt to break it down.  So I am going to say that if you throw an ice wight into the salt sea; you turn them into floatation devices.  As for the wights figuring out how to navigate the maze of underground tunnels; well they are zombies after all and if they aren't chasing after hot blood; it looks to me like they just lie around in the snow.  

The salt water question is interesting considering the salt tear that the Black Gate sheds for Bran when he passes.  So I wonder if tasting the salt tear of the Gate gives some kind of immunity to the killing cold stopping wight-ification.  Perhaps this says something about Coldhands and even the religion of the Drowned God.  The drowning of men in the salt sea and drinking salt water for protection against the Storm Lord.               

 

Interesting thoughts between the salt tears of the Gate and the Drowned men. The salt water prevents the dead reanimation. Another thought as to why Coldhands can't pass the gate under the Wall is that He is not a true wight. Since Othor and Jafer were carried across the Wall's boundary so should Coldhands be able to cross unless he is more than a black-eyed wight. He could be an Other in a dead man's body; a recycled white walker, and that's why he cannot pass.