Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

[Brad Stark]

Back to timelines.  GRRM said The Night's King was as removed from our time as Noah and Gilgamesh.  Maybe I am taking this too literally,  but Gilgamesh was written about 4000 years ago, which is also (according to bible) when the flood occurred.   There are a lot of other mythological figures to choose from,  he could have said as King Arthur or Santa Claus or Adam and Eve,  but he chose these 2.

The last thousand years is written history, so dates are probably correct.   I suggest 3000 years for the oral history since The Long Night until the Andale invasion. 

[Black Crow]

50 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, of course one can make up any numbers one likes. 

What I mean is, are you really proposing that the Wall has only existed a thousand years and has only had 98 LCs?

No, at this stage its not possible to make an informed guess but I do reckon that the history of Martin's world is a lot shorter than we;ve been led to believe. 

[Black Crow]

30 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Back to timelines.  GRRM said The Night's King was as removed from our time as Noah and Gilgamesh.  Maybe I am taking this too literally,  but Gilgamesh was written about 4000 years ago, which is also (according to bible) when the flood occurred.   There are a lot of other mythological figures to choose from,  he could have said as King Arthur or Santa Claus or Adam and Eve,  but he chose these 2.

The problem with King Arthur is that while we don't know much about him in real terms, he does seem pretty consistently located in the immediate post-Roman period - which is Westerosi terms probably equates to about 1,000 years ago.

GRRM's point about Noah and Gilgamesh is that they are figures out of legend, beyond 1189 or any recorded history

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The problem with King Arthur is that while we don't know much about him in real terms, he does seem pretty consistently located in the immediate post-Roman period - which is Westerosi terms probably equates to about 1,000 years ago.

GRRM's point about Noah and Gilgamesh is that they are figures out of legend, beyond 1189 or any recorded history

Exactly my point.   King Arthur is too recent.   He could have used Adam and Eve,  which biblically are around 10,000 years back, further beyond recorded history.   He gave 2 specific examples that are both the same age.

[LynnS]

49 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Exactly my point.   King Arthur is too recent.   He could have used Adam and Eve,  which biblically are around 10,000 years back, further beyond recorded history.   He gave 2 specific examples that are both the same age.

The problem with the flood myths are that they appear in the written history around the same time; the older flood myth coming from Sumeria which may have an oral tradition going back even further to a real event.

The Black Sea outburst flood which may have been the source of the story of Gilgamesh and Noah occurred around 7600 years ago.  So I still think we are looking at 8,000 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood#The_Black_Sea_.28around_7.2C600_years_ago.29

Regarding the list of Lord Commanders... was there was more than one LC at a time.  What's the magic number? Three?  Would 333 triumverates make more sense?  Why did two forts go to battle with each other at one time?

With as many as 10,000 men on the watch at one time; perhaps there was more than one LC at any given time depending on the number of forts in use and the number of men in total.  What about 2 LC's in command of the Wall at any given time?

   

 

[JNR]

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The Black Sea outburst flood which may have been the source of the story of Gilgamesh and Noah occurred around 7600 years ago.

Yep, that's certainly an interesting possibility and another is that the mass flooding created by melting glaciers circa 10K years ago was the source -- or a source -- of these myths.  Australian aboriginal mythology for instance still recalls a time when Tasmania was connected to the mainland, which came to a conclusion around then.

But the bottom line is that GRRM was saying "Look, these guys lived thousands of years ago, if they lived at all -- so tread carefully in the conclusions you draw.  Times change, stories change, people lie, cultures adapt details to suit their interests."

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

But the bottom line is that GRRM was saying "Look, these guys lived thousands of years ago, if they lived at all -- so tread carefully in the conclusions you draw.  Times change, stories change, people lie, cultures adapt details to suit their interests."

Exactly so: 

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

He's warning of dodgy world building rather than providing clever clues.

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so: 

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

He's warning of dodgy world building rather than providing clever clues.

Yes, there's very little underneath this particular iceberg.  We probably won't know until he produces the GrrmMarillion.

[Frey family reunion]

Some of us have discussed this on another board, but I thought hat the topic bears repeating here.  Melisandre calls the Wall one of the hinges of the world, and perhaps at the origins of the creation of the Wall we have the Black Gate.  I presume since you go through the Gate the same way on either side, the Gate is a doorway with two faces, one facing into the Well and the other facing on the other side.

Which makes me think that GRRM may be referencing a tale in Ovid's Metamorphosiis, that of the rape of Cranae by Janus, the two faced god of doorways.  In Ovid's tale, Cranae is a nymph who enjoys leading potential suitors on a merry chase, promising to take them to a cave to fulfill their desires, before ultimately losing them and hiding in the bushes where she can enjoy watching their frustrations.  She tries to play the same trick on Janus, the two faced Greek god of doors and doorways.  But unfortunately for Cranae, Janus is able to look both ahead of him and behind so she is unable to hide from him, and he forcibly takes her virginity.

In recompense, he makes her the goddess of the hinge.  In Ovid's words:  "By means of her divine presence she opens things that have been closed, and closes things that have been opened."  He also gives her a Hawthorne or whitethorn (tree perhaps?) which becomes associated with a protection of the doorway, which can "repel injurious influences from the entrances to houses".

The tale brings to mind a little bit of Bran and Meera's relationship.  Especially the scene by the fire where Bran enters Hodor and is about to make a move towards Meera when she perhaps sensing what's about to happen runs away. 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Some of us have discussed this on another board, but I thought hat the topic bears repeating here.  Melisandre calls the Wall one of the hinges of the world, and perhaps at the origins of the creation of the Wall we have the Black Gate.  I presume since you go through the Gate the same way on either side, the Gate is a doorway with two faces, one facing into the Well and the other facing on the other side.

Which makes me think that GRRM may be referencing a tale in Ovid's Metamorphosiis, that of the rape of Cranae by Janus, the two faced god of doorways.  In Ovid's tale, Cranae is a nymph who enjoys leading potential suitors on a merry chase, promising to take them to a cave to fulfill their desires, before ultimately losing them and hiding in the bushes where she can enjoy watching their frustrations.  She tries to play the same trick on Janus, the two faced Greek god of doors and doorways.  But unfortunately for Cranae, Janus is able to look both ahead of him and behind so she is unable to hide from him, and he forcibly takes her virginity.

In recompense, he makes her the goddess of the hinge.  In Ovid's words:  "By means of her divine presence she opens things that have been closed, and closes things that have been opened."  He also gives her a Hawthorne or whitethorn (tree perhaps?) which becomes associated with a protection of the doorway, which can "repel injurious influences from the entrances to houses".

The tale brings to mind a little bit of Bran and Meera's relationship.  Especially the scene by the fire where Bran enters Hodor and is about to make a move towards Meera when she perhaps sensing what's about to happen runs away. 

Oh very nice catch, I do like that very much

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

He's warning of dodgy world building rather than providing clever clues.

This reminds me to ask you something -- do you know of any British myths that seem to reflect a time when Great Britain was still connected to Europe (which I think it was until about eight thousand years ago)? 

I don't know of any, but it seems like an interesting area of inquiry.

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

We probably won't know until he produces the GrrmMarillion.

Which is apparently not what I thought it would be.

I had expected, from the Silmarillion-esque working title, that it would be a collection and explanation of ancient myths of Westeros. 

Well, damn, I would love to read that.  And if he doesn't want to write it, I would love to write it as based on his notes. 

For instance, there is a particular chapter in ADWD in which GRRM slyly inserts references to three different human populations that lived in Westeros before the First Men.   Nobody's gonna tell me that's not an interesting area.

But now it seems it's going to be all about the Targs and their family history.  Well... that's a subject  I think will interest GRRM's fans a hell of a lot less than it does today, once the penny drops that Jon isn't any sort of Targaryen and that all their endless "catches" and "finds" on that subject were masterpieces of the imagination.  So hopefully, realizing this, he'll rework his plan.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

This reminds me to ask you something -- do you know of any British myths that seem to reflect a time when Great Britain was still connected to Europe (which I think it was until about eight thousand years ago)? 

I don't know of any, but it seems like an interesting area of inquiry.

 

Oh yes indeedee...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyonesse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ys

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantre'r_Gwaelod

 

[Black Crow]

And while there's no mythology attaching to it, this pair are always of interest when it comes to the Hammer of the Waters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weald–Artois_Anticline

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

But now it seems it's going to be all about the Targs and their family history.  Well... that's a subject  I think will interest GRRM's fans a hell of a lot less than it does today, once the penny drops that Jon isn't any sort of Targaryen and that all their endless "catches" and "finds" on that subject were masterpieces of the imagination.  So hopefully, realizing this, he'll rework his plan.

Rather depends on his motives in writing this. He's clearly developed an interest in the Targaryens, but is he writing this because its not relevant to the outcome of ASoIF and therefore has no place in the main narrative. The Stark connection to Winter on the other hand is clearly something that does belong there.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

This reminds me to ask you something -- do you know of any British myths that seem to reflect a time when Great Britain was still connected to Europe (which I think it was until about eight thousand years ago)? 

I don't know of any, but it seems like an interesting area of inquiry.

Which is apparently not what I thought it would be.

I had expected, from the Silmarillion-esque working title, that it would be a collection and explanation of ancient myths of Westeros. 

Well, damn, I would love to read that.  And if he doesn't want to write it, I would love to write it as based on his notes. 

For instance, there is a particular chapter in ADWD in which GRRM slyly inserts references to three different human populations that lived in Westeros before the First Men.   Nobody's gonna tell me that's not an interesting area.

But now it seems it's going to be all about the Targs and their family history.  Well... that's a subject  I think will interest GRRM's fans a hell of a lot less than it does today, once the penny drops that Jon isn't any sort of Targaryen and that all their endless "catches" and "finds" on that subject were masterpieces of the imagination.  So hopefully, realizing this, he'll rework his plan.

What 3 populations?  Which chapter?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

What 3 populations?  Which chapter?

I'll let him answer that one directly, but I will say that in looking at the Wildlings, peoples such as the Hornfoots, the Cannibal Clans of the Ice River and arguably the Thenns don't sound like First Men 

[Matthew.]

49 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'll let him answer that one directly, but I will say that in looking at the Wildlings, peoples such as the Hornfoots, the Cannibal Clans of the Ice River and arguably the Thenns don't sound like First Men 

The Thenns (or Styr) seem to hold almost the opposite view:
 

Quote

The Thenns were not like other free folk, though. The Magnar claimed to be the last of the First Men, and ruled with an iron hand. His little land of Thenn was a high mountain valley hidden amongst the northernmost peaks of the Frostfangs, surrounded by cave dwellers, Hornfoot men, giants, and the cannibal clans of the ice rivers. Ygritte said the Thenns were savage fighters, and that their Magnar was a god to them. Jon could believe that. Unlike Jarl and Harma and Rattleshirt, Styr commanded absolute obedience from his men, and that discipline was no doubt part of why Mance had chosen him to go over the Wall.

It's not entirely clear what it means to Styr to be "the last of the First Men;" perhaps the Thenns never accepted the Pact, and consider themselves to be the only true FM culture, or maybe the earliest pilgrims to Westeros really were diverse, and the Thenns are the last remnants of the men led across the Arm of Dorne by the First King (from the point of view of their own oral history, since the Dustin's also claim descent from the First King), assuming such a figure ever existed.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

The Thenns (or Styr) seem to hold almost the opposite view:
 

It's not entirely clear what it means to Styr to be "the last of the First Men;" perhaps the Thenns never accepted the Pact, and consider themselves to be the only true FM culture, or maybe the earliest pilgrims to Westeros really were diverse, and the Thenns are the last remnants of the men led across the Arm of Dorne by the First King (from the point of view of their own oral history, since the Dustin's also claim descent from the First King), assuming such a figure ever existed.

OK point taken on Styr, but at the same time I think you're providing a pretty good illustration as to why the First Men are probably not the first men

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

, I would love to write it as based on his notes

Oh, I'd read that!

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

OK point taken on Styr, but at the same time I think you're providing a pretty good illustration as to why the First Men are probably not the first men

I didn't disagree with the broader point, I was just pointing out that the Thenns seem to hold onto a rather interesting self-perception.

It has been my own position in the past to question whether or not those early Westerosi that have been subsequently categorized as "First Men" were actually a unified culture--for example, the Ironborn are culturally distinct, and even question their own status as "First Men."

Further compounding the problem, we have, on the one hand, Luwin's account that suggests ~2,000 years of incremental loss of land for the CotF, and on the other hand, legends that suggest a far more abrupt incursion:

 

Quote

According to the most well-regarded accounts from the Citadel, anywhere from eight thousand to twelve thousand years ago, in the southernmost reaches of Westeros, a new people crossed the strip of land that bridged the narrow sea and connected the eastern lands with the land in which the children and giants lived. It was here that the First Men came into Dorne via the Broken Arm, which was not yet broken. Why these people left their homelands is lost to all knowing, but when they came, they came in force. Thousands entered and began to settle the lands, and as the decades passed, they pushed farther and farther north. Such tales as we have of those migratory days are not to be trusted, for they suggest that, within a few short years, the First Men had moved beyond the Neck and into the North. Yet, in truth, it would have taken decades, even centuries, for this to occur.

In addition to the cited tales, if there truly was a "First King" who lead men across the Arm of Dorne and is buried at Barrowton, the implicit suggestion of his barrow being in the north is that the First King had gone awfully far into Westeros by the time of his death.

I personally suspect that Westeros was already occupied by men here and there, though not unified by any shared culture, and that it was a more organized invasion that prompted the breaking of the Arm of Dorne and the flooding of the Neck...and perhaps other measures as well.