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Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall


Black Crow

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5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm suggesting that its consistent and that there's no reason to doubt it :commie:

Have we heard the children say the were the first to carve faces? Or just men?

ETA: The reason to doubt is that anything that supposedly happened before the Long Night is completely up for grabs. Most culture and societal order would perish in a ten year long winter with little to no sun due to starvation and anarchy. So, anything from before that 'choke point'.... should be questioned in my opinion. 

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7 minutes ago, LmL said:

You mean under the see? :devil:

Yes, also "under the sea", as figurative; and I was thinking to "beyond the Wall" in a very litteral sense.^^ 

(I have the intuition that a "horned king" id dead near the Fist at a hunt, but I can't yet prove it, because I've not studied the text in that way... but I will do^^)

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3 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Yes, also "under the sea", as figurative; and I was thinking to "beyond the Wall" in a very litteral sense. 

(I have the intuition that a "horned king" id dead near the Fist at a hunt, but I can't yet prove it, because I've not studied the text in that way... but I will do^^)

The Fist would be one of the places to find his symbolism if he is stuck in the wwnet, imo, so your idea doesn't surprise me, but rather makes sense :) It's flat out said to be a place where the ghosts of the First Men haunt, too. The rising fist symbolism is one I have traced out pretty far; from what i can tell it is pretty loaded. Storm's End is a rising fist also, and of course that's the site of our A+, #1 horned lords in the story.  

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7 minutes ago, LmL said:

Storm's End is a rising fist also, and of course that's the site of our A+, #1 horned lords in the story.  

Yes, and they are linked physically in the text, because the chapter of Renly's death ends with a view on Storm's End, and precedes the Jon's chapter when with the arrival to the Fist. 

I just realized now that we have another bird linked with the whores : Littlefinger, always travelling (he brings back to KL Renly's ghost, he passes the sea to rob Sansa, and when he was young, Catelyn tells a story where he found her and Lysa lost in the mists; aso...), who has the brothels in KL and Gulltown (surely Stannis didn't forbid the whores and the brothels in Dragonstone for moral reasons). 

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32 minutes ago, LmL said:

Have we heard the children say the were the first to carve faces? Or just men?

 

We're told that the Children went to war in the first place because men were afraid of the faces on the trees and so cut down the trees and "gave them to the flames". That seems pretty solid to me, though as I've said, while its assumed the faces were carved that doesn't seem to be the case and it was perhaps learning the truth that made men afraid of them.

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

 

So the faces were there from the start and it was cutting them down that started the war in the first place. What is interesting that at the signing [!] of the Pact "every tree on the island was given a face". At first reading that might simply be taken as having a face carved on it, but in the context we've been discussing here I'm much more inclined to read it exactly as its written, that men were sacrificed to the trees to give each one a face.

@Black Crow, I am more and more convinced by your, @LmL's and @Unchained's thesis that some 'fell' presence has been imprisoned in the weirwoods; and therefore conversely that 'felling' the trees represents a 'prison-break' of sorts, which could not be allowed!  Is that why 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell' which is configured as a giant tree-labyrinth with thick stony walls..?  Is someone imprisoned in Winterfell?  As you've been suggesting, Winterfell is a jail, with the Lord of Winterfell as its 'warden' (fittingly, his title confers on him the responsibility of being the Warden of the North, which involves catching and prosecuting any deserters, i.e. those felons who have broken out of prison), making the whole of the north, including the Wall and the Night's Watch, one massive penitentiary.

 Perhaps part of the 'Pact' was a judgement by judge and jury -- magical number 13 as @Pain killer Jane has highlighted in the context of meting out justice -- which involved an incarceration of the guilty parties and/or sacrificial scapegoats.  This mix of guilty and innocent parties is reflected by the motley assortment of men sent to the Wall, some of whom are genuine criminals, and others like Jon who are paying for the crimes of others through no fault of their own.  

I think there is a wordplay surrounding the idea of 'sentencing' someone -- whereby 'sentence' implies a punishment that is pronounced, sealed and put down in writing (the 'bearing witness') -- an account of the transaction written in a very literal sense by being carved into the trees.  Analogously, in Norse mythology Odin was hanged on the world tree -- a kind of tree incarceration -- in exchange for the 'runes' which are carved tablets, conferring the gift of poetry (and indeed language and divine knowledge itself).  According to Christian beliefs, Jesus Christ was similarly hanged on the cross (another kind of tree) the righteous man hanging next to common criminals (just like at the Wall) in order to pay for the sins of others, so that others may obtain redemption and receive the 'Word' of God.  Thus there is a blood exchange or payment (in the sense of 'paying' for a crime and/or privilege) implied in the carved faces.  The faces stare out of the trees in 'mute appeal' --  appealing their sentence to no avail!

If the faces carved into the tree trunks represent 'sentences' or 'words', then cutting off the faces implies 'breaking ones word' in the sense of breaking an oath or pact.  As has already been mentioned, breaking this pact by felling the trees would additionally involve a prison break with the fell presence --or 'felon(s)' -- going free!  Instead of using the word 'felling,' however, GRRM employs the construction 'put to the axe', so cutting down a tree with an axe is related to an unlawful prison-break.  Since an axe resembles the shape of a key, cutting down a tree is like unlocking a door or gate, symbolically.  

GRRM spells out this correlation again very explicitly for us in the episode where Arya throws an axe to the incarcerated felons (en route from the King's Landing dungeons to the Wall...just another dungeon) huddling behind bars in their burning (wooden) wagon.  It's implied that her action is illicit, given that Jaqen later tells her that she has 'stolen' three lives from the god of many faces and that these must be returned to keep the 'prison roll' accounting, as it were, up to date!  (Likewise, Bran was sprung free of Winterfell's confines by Jojen/Meera, the 'covert operatives', in exchange for Luwin's sacrifice to the tree).  

Given that the wagon is analogous to a weirwood prison, we may say that one may be symbolically freed from the tree either by cutting or burning it down.  The fell trio summoned up from Hell by Arya -- Jaqen (the maester), Biter (the wyvern) and Rorge (the hellhound) -- who hack their way out with the axe from the inside are unlocking the door of Hell, using the 'key' = 'axe' Arya tossed them through the bars.  @LmL : In your preferred terms, Arya is the busybody comet messing with the order of the universe by playing midwife.  The escape of the prisoners from the 'tree' wagon is a bloody affair, a (re)birth at which she assists -- and a synonym for the birth of a baby is 'delivery' or in other words 'liberation' from the womb (a 'triple-goddess function).  This is yet another iteration of the womb-tomb principle of Kali the mother goddess.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IV

Stubbornly, Arya dragged all the harder, pulling the crying girl along. Hot Pie scuttled back inside, abandoning them . . . but Gendry came back, the fire shining so bright on his polished helm that the horns seemed to glow orange. He ran to them, and hoisted the crying girl up over his shoulder. "Run!"

Rushing through the barn doors was like running into a furnace. The air was swirling with smoke, the back wall a sheet of fire ground to roof. Their horses and donkeys were kicking and rearing and screaming. The poor animals, Arya thought. Then she saw the wagon, and the three men manacled to its bed. Biter was flinging himself against the chains, blood running down his arms from where the irons clasped his wrists. Rorge screamed curses, kicking at the wood. "Boy!" called Jaqen H'ghar. "Sweet boy!"

The open trap was only a few feet ahead, but the fire was spreading fast, consuming the old wood and dry straw faster than she would have believed. Arya remembered the Hound's horrible burned face. "Tunnel's narrow," Gendry shouted. "How do we get her through?" [ @LmL this is the portal between moons?]

"Pull her," Arya said. "Push her." [a woman giving birth with urgent encouragement from the midwifery team!]
"Good boys, kind boys," called Jaqen H'ghar, coughing.

"Out by the haven." He spared a glance for the chained men. "I'd save the donkeys first. There's no time."

"You take her!" she yelled. "You get her out! You do it!" The fire beat at her back with hot red wings as she fled the burning barn. [great image, in which Arya seems to grow fiery hot red wings, like an angel of fire -- or red comet/ Lightbringer...who breaks the rules, stirs things up by diverting from her expected orbit and as a result setting someone free] It felt blessedly cool outside, but men were dying all around her. She saw Koss throw down his blade to yield, and she saw them kill him where he stood. Smoke was everywhere. There was no sign of Yoren, but the axe was where Gendry had left it, by the woodpile outside the haven. As she wrenched it free, a mailed hand grabbed her arm. Spinning, Arya drove the head of the axe hard between his legs. She never saw his face, only the dark blood seeping between the links of his hauberk. Going back into that barn was the hardest thing she ever did. Smoke was pouring out the open door like a writhing black snake, and she could hear the screams of the poor animals inside, donkeys and horses and men. She chewed her lip, and darted through the doors, crouched low where the smoke wasn't quite so thick.

A donkey was caught in a ring of fire, shrieking in terror and pain. She could smell the stench of burning hair. The roof was gone up too, and things were falling down, pieces of flaming wood and bits of straw and hay. Arya put a hand over her mouth and nose. She couldn't see the wagon for the smoke, but she could still hear Biter screaming. She crawled toward the sound.

And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters. [note, 'crack' is one of GRRM's 'code' words.  Among other things, it's used to denote the birth of the dragons as well as the speech of the Others; in other words, these are the 'fell' creatures or 'felons' liberated from the prison.  The forces of magic that had been sequestered or warded in a prison are now released into the world.]

Arya rolled headfirst into the tunnel [symbolically, a vaginal passage, a rebirth portal; and Arya's dropping headfirst, as would be expected in a normal vaginal birth] and dropped five feet. She got dirt in her mouth but she didn't care, the taste was fine, the taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom, she could not say.

The 'monstrous beast' has been released from hell!  Who is he?  Is he one of the fugitives or someone separate (making the trio his three 'apprentices' accompanying him, 'the thing that came in the night...')?

Considering that in traditional literary depictions of Hell, pre-eminently Dante's 'Inferno', the arch-fiend Lucifer himself is incarcerated IN ICE in the innermost, so-called ninth circle of Hell, we may speculate that the prisoner is the 'Great Other', whoever that may have been originally.  Thus, we have a fiery, warm-blooded being immobilized with manacles of ice.  Analogously, Bloodraven is manacled by the weirwood tree.  Weirwoods are thus ice trees pinioning fiery beings; and it's the reason I've been positing the warm-blooded being imprisoned in the weirwood 'Black Gate' of the Wall (the equivalent of Dante's innermost ninth circle), despite being encased in an icy cage, shed a warm tear!

Paradoxically, the reason Lucifer doesn't just melt the ice and break free is that he's also the one responsible for elaborating the ice due to the cooling wind created by the beat of his own wings as he struggles to escape the stranglehold of the ice.  Analogously, perhaps, the one imprisoned in the weirwood (Black Gate) is responsible for the ice surrounding him?  Perhaps the architect of the Wall himself -- the one known as 'Brandon the Builder'?  It would be great irony that the one laying the foundation of the Wall is also himself lying in its foundation!  Thus does humanity dig its own grave.  We build as we break; and break as we build.

It's also noteworthy that Dante's Lucifer has THREE HEADS -- so that would fit with the trio we see emerging from the tree.  Accordingly, I tend to agree with @LynnS's intriguing suggestion that 'the dragon has three heads' might be referring to Bloodraven and his three apprentices, namely Jon, Bran and Arya, instead of Dany and the great anticipated Targ restoration with all the secret Targlings creeping out of the woodwork for the party (sorry, bad pun ;)).

As to the 'white-haired' woman performing the sacrifice at Winterfell, perhaps she has white hair because she's an albino or dragon-blooded, not because she's old.  So what was a dragon-blooded individual doing at Winterfell during the 'bronze' age (bronze sickle)?

2 hours ago, LmL said:

The Fist would be one of the places to find his symbolism if he is stuck in the wwnet, imo, so your idea doesn't surprise me, but rather makes sense :) It's flat out said to be a place where the ghosts of the First Men haunt, too. The rising fist symbolism is one I have traced out pretty far; from what i can tell it is pretty loaded. Storm's End is a rising fist also, and of course that's the site of our A+, #1 horned lords in the story.  

@GloubieBoulga Nice catch with the 'Last Hearth' (it's like the final frontier of the 'curtain of light' and whatever it was he saw behind it, probably also fiery since it burned his tears, in Bran's coma dream).  The upraised fists puncturing the equanimity of the landscape is a visual representation of the 'mute appeal' or 'silent shout' of whoever was violated in the past.  The 'bar sinister' or 'big bastard' creeping up behind' like a storm and looking for vengeance (P.S.  Gloubie, nice new thread -- congratulations!  I will be commenting soon :)).

@LmL  the 'fist', besides being an Yggdrasil weirwood burning brand reference, is a kind of 'horn' in a way rising out of and puncturing the landscape.  It reminds me of Varamyr aka 'Lump' and 'Bump' connoting the idea of someone with horns (by the way, what's your answer to Patchface's riddle 'under the sea, no one wears hats..?!

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12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@Black Crow, I am more and more convinced by your, @LmL's and @Unchained's thesis that some 'fell' presence has been imprisoned in the weirwoods; and therefore conversely that 'felling' the trees represents a 'prison-break' of sorts, which could not be allowed!  Is that why 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell' which is configured as a giant tree-labyrinth with thick stony walls..?  Is someone imprisoned in Winterfell?  As you've been suggesting, Winterfell is a jail, with the Lord of Winterfell as its 'warden' (fittingly, his title confers on him the responsibility of being the Warden of the North, which involves catching and prosecuting any deserters (i.e. those felons who have broken out of prison), making the whole of the north, including the Wall and the Night's Watch one massive penitentiary.

Quote

Not a soul

But felt a fever of the mad and played

Some tricks of desperation. All but mariners

Plunged in the foaming brine and quit the vessel,

Then all afire with me. The king’s son, Ferdinand,

With hair up-staring—then, like reeds, not hair—

Was the first man that leaped, cried, “Hell is empty

And all the devils are here.”

-The Tempest

Quote

"A demon priest," said Wulfe One-Ear. He spat.

"Might be his robes caught fire, so he jumped overboard to put them out," suggested Longwater Pyke, to general laughter. Even the monkeys were amused. 

.................

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

-The Iron Suitor

 

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23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@Black Crow, I am more and more convinced by your, @LmL's and @Unchained's thesis that some 'fell' presence has been imprisoned in the weirwoods; and therefore conversely that 'felling' the trees represents a 'prison-break' of sorts, which could not be allowed!  Is that why 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell' which is configured as a giant tree-labyrinth with thick stony walls..?  Is someone imprisoned in Winterfell?  As you've been suggesting, Winterfell is a jail, with the Lord of Winterfell as its 'warden' (fittingly, his title confers on him the responsibility of being the Warden of the North, which involves catching and prosecuting any deserters, i.e. those felons who have broken out of prison), making the whole of the north, including the Wall and the Night's Watch, one massive penitentiary.

 Perhaps part of the 'Pact' was a judgement by judge and jury -- magical number 13 as @Pain killer Jane has highlighted in the context of meting out justice -- which involved an incarceration of the guilty parties and/or sacrificial scapegoats.  This mix of guilty and innocent parties is reflected by the motley assortment of men sent to the Wall, some of whom are genuine criminals, and others like Jon who are paying for the crimes of others through no fault of their own.  

I think there is a wordplay surrounding the idea of 'sentencing' someone -- whereby 'sentence' implies a punishment that is pronounced, sealed and put down in writing (the 'bearing witness') -- an account of the transaction written in a very literal sense by being carved into the trees.  Analogously, in Norse mythology Odin was hanged on the world tree -- a kind of tree incarceration -- in exchange for the 'runes' which are carved tablets, conferring the gift of poetry (and indeed language and divine knowledge itself).  According to Christian beliefs, Jesus Christ was similarly hanged on the cross (another kind of tree) the righteous man hanging next to common criminals (just like at the Wall) in order to pay for the sins of others, so that others may obtain redemption and receive the 'Word' of God.  Thus there is a blood exchange or payment (in the sense of 'paying' for a crime and/or privilege) implied in the carved faces.  The faces stare out of the trees in 'mute appeal' --  appealing their sentence to no avail!

If the faces carved into the tree trunks represent 'sentences' or 'words', then cutting off the faces implies 'breaking ones word' in the sense of breaking an oath or pact.  As has already been mentioned, breaking this pact by felling the trees would additionally involve a prison break with the fell presence --or 'felon(s)' -- going free!  Instead of using the word 'felling,' however, GRRM employs the construction 'put to the axe', so cutting down a tree with an axe is related to an unlawful prison-break.  Since an axe resembles the shape of a key, cutting down a tree is like unlocking a door or gate, symbolically.  

GRRM spells out this correlation again very explicitly for us in the episode where Arya throws an axe to the incarcerated felons (en route from the King's Landing dungeons to the Wall...just another dungeon) huddling behind bars in their burning (wooden) wagon.  It's implied that her action is illicit, given that Jaqen later tells her that she has 'stolen' three lives from the god of many faces and that these must be returned to keep the 'prison roll' accounting, as it were, up to date!  (Likewise, Bran was sprung free of Winterfell's confines by Jojen/Meera, the 'covert operatives', in exchange for Luwin's sacrifice to the tree).  

Given that the wagon is analogous to a weirwood prison, we may say that one may be symbolically freed from the tree either by cutting or burning it down.  The fell trio summoned up from Hell by Arya -- Jaqen (the maester), Biter (the wyvern) and Rorge (the hellhound) -- who hack their way out with the axe from the inside are unlocking the door of Hell, using the 'key' = 'axe' Arya tossed them through the bars.  @LmL : In your preferred terms, Arya is the busybody comet messing with the order of the universe by playing midwife.  The escape of the prisoners from the 'tree' wagon is a bloody affair, a (re)birth at which she assists -- and a synonym for the birth of a baby is 'delivery' or in other words 'liberation' from the womb (a 'triple-goddess function).  This is yet another iteration of the womb-tomb principle of Kali the mother goddess.

The 'monstrous beast' has been released from hell!  Who is he?  Is he one of the fugitives or someone separate (making the trio his three 'apprentices' accompanying him, 'the thing that came in the night...')?

Considering that in traditional literary depictions of Hell, pre-eminently Dante's 'Inferno', the arch-fiend Lucifer himself is incarcerated IN ICE in the innermost, so-called ninth circle of Hell, we may speculate that the prisoner is the 'Great Other', whoever that may have been originally.  Thus, we have a fiery, warm-blooded being immobilized with manacles of ice.  Analogously, Bloodraven is manacled by the weirwood tree.  Weirwoods are thus ice trees pinioning fiery beings; and it's the reason I've been positing the warm-blooded being imprisoned in the weirwood 'Black Gate' of the Wall (the equivalent of Dante's innermost ninth circle), despite being encased in an icy cage, shed a warm tear!

Paradoxically, the reason Lucifer doesn't just melt the ice and break free is that he's also the one responsible for elaborating the ice due to the cooling wind created by the beat of his own wings as he struggles to escape the stranglehold of the ice.  Analogously, perhaps, the one imprisoned in the weirwood (Black Gate) is responsible for the ice surrounding him?  Perhaps the architect of the Wall himself -- the one known as 'Brandon the Builder'?  It would be great irony that the one laying the foundation of the Wall is also himself lying in its foundation!  Thus does humanity dig its own grave.  We build as we break; and break as we build.

It's also noteworthy that Dante's Lucifer has THREE HEADS -- so that would fit with the trio we see emerging from the tree.  Accordingly, I tend to agree with @LynnS's intriguing suggestion that 'the dragon has three heads' might be referring to Bloodraven and his three apprentices, namely Jon, Bran and Arya, instead of Dany and the great anticipated Targ restoration with all the secret Targlings creeping out of the woodwork for the party (sorry, bad pun ;)).

As to the 'white-haired' woman performing the sacrifice at Winterfell, perhaps she has white hair because she's an albino or dragon-blooded, not because she's old.  So what was a dragon-blooded individual doing at Winterfell during the 'bronze' age (bronze sickle)?

@GloubieBoulga Nice catch with the 'Last Hearth' (it's like the final frontier of the 'curtain of light' in Bran's coma dream).  The upraised fists puncturing the equanimity of the landscape is a visual representation of the 'mute appeal' or 'silent .shout' of whoever was violated in the past.  The 'bar sinister' or 'big bastard' creeping up behind' like a storm and looking for vengeance (P.S.  Gloubie, nice new thread -- congratulations!  I will be commenting soon :)).

@LmL  the 'fist', besides being an Yggdrasil weirwood burning brand reference, is a kind of 'horn' in a way rising out of and puncturing the landscape.  It reminds me of Varamyr aka 'Lump' and 'Bump' connoting the idea of someone with horns (by the way, what's your answer to Patchface's riddle 'under the sea, no one wears hats..?!

Under the see, stag men don't wear hats - they have real antlers, haha. It's a joke about the Secret order of green men wearing antlered headdresses as a mundane explanation of our glorious Cerrunos people, perhaps. Or it could be a reference to a buck losing its antlers in the winter. 

The other things that come to mind are crowns or beheading. Not wearing a hat could be something about not wearing a crown, or the king taking off his crown... I'm not really sure. If it's beheading, then it's probably just about sacrificing to enter the trees period I can't really think of any other hat symbolism. 

I agree it makes sense to view the Fist and the rising fist locations as a horn, since the horn and the tree seem to be the two methods by which a greenseer can reach up into the stars and perhaps affect the course of heavenly bodies.

As for the three heads of the Dragon, I like the idea of two parallel trios, with Blood Ravens students and the three dragon people.  Of course, that would have John in both trios, and it leaves out Sansa and Brienne, whom I regard as main characters. 

I like to think about the symmetry of the students and pupils. Bloodraven trains Bran, his lover Quaithe (Shiera Seastar) teaches Dany, and their daughter Melisandre is teaching / resurrecting Jon.  Obviously the Jon and Melisandre thing is a bit different, but John is never the less learning from her, I think most people think that she will be involved in his resurrection, and I suspect their interactions are not done after that.

Since this thread is about the wall, let me just say that one of my favorite symbols having to do with the wall is Arson Ice Axe. I think it was Voice who pointed out that one, way back when that. It's a terrific ice and fire symbol. Between that and Stannis laying his lightbringer sword across the wall on the map in that one scene comma and also the quote about the wall being a snake and a sword... well I can't wait to see the wall explode or catch on fire or do whatever it's going to do. Now if only we could think of something large enough and powerful enough to smash a giant wall of ice, or set it on fire. If only...

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33 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

@Black Crow, I am more and more convinced by your, @LmL's and @Unchained's thesis that some 'fell' presence has been imprisoned in the weirwoods; and therefore conversely that 'felling' the trees represents a 'prison-break' of sorts, which could not be allowed!  Is that why 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell' which is configured as a giant tree-labyrinth with thick stony walls..?  Is someone imprisoned in Winterfell?  As you've been suggesting, Winterfell is a jail, with the Lord of Winterfell as its 'warden' (fittingly, his title confers on him the responsibility of being the Warden of the North, which involves catching and prosecuting any deserters, i.e. those felons who have broken out of prison), making the whole of the north, including the Wall and the Night's Watch, one massive penitentiary.

 Perhaps part of the 'Pact' was a judgement by judge and jury -- magical number 13 as @Pain killer Jane has highlighted in the context of meting out justice -- which involved an incarceration of the guilty parties and/or sacrificial scapegoats.  This mix of guilty and innocent parties is reflected by the motley assortment of men sent to the Wall, some of whom are genuine criminals, and others like Jon who are paying for the crimes of others through no fault of their own.  

I think there is a wordplay surrounding the idea of 'sentencing' someone -- whereby 'sentence' implies a punishment that is pronounced, sealed and put down in writing (the 'bearing witness') -- an account of the transaction written in a very literal sense by being carved into the trees.  Analogously, in Norse mythology Odin was hanged on the world tree -- a kind of tree incarceration -- in exchange for the 'runes' which are carved tablets, conferring the gift of poetry (and indeed language and divine knowledge itself).  According to Christian beliefs, Jesus Christ was similarly hanged on the cross (another kind of tree) the righteous man hanging next to common criminals (just like at the Wall) in order to pay for the sins of others, so that others may obtain redemption and receive the 'Word' of God.  Thus there is a blood exchange or payment (in the sense of 'paying' for a crime and/or privilege) implied in the carved faces.  The faces stare out of the trees in 'mute appeal' --  appealing their sentence to no avail!

If the faces carved into the tree trunks represent 'sentences' or 'words', then cutting off the faces implies 'breaking ones word' in the sense of breaking an oath or pact.  As has already been mentioned, breaking this pact by felling the trees would additionally involve a prison break with the fell presence --or 'felon(s)' -- going free!  Instead of using the word 'felling,' however, GRRM employs the construction 'put to the axe', so cutting down a tree with an axe is related to an unlawful prison-break.  Since an axe resembles the shape of a key, cutting down a tree is like unlocking a door or gate, symbolically.  

GRRM spells out this correlation again very explicitly for us in the episode where Arya throws an axe to the incarcerated felons (en route from the King's Landing dungeons to the Wall...just another dungeon) huddling behind bars in their burning (wooden) wagon.  It's implied that her action is illicit, given that Jaqen later tells her that she has 'stolen' three lives from the god of many faces and that these must be returned to keep the 'prison roll' accounting, as it were, up to date!  (Likewise, Bran was sprung free of Winterfell's confines by Jojen/Meera, the 'covert operatives', in exchange for Luwin's sacrifice to the tree).  

Given that the wagon is analogous to a weirwood prison, we may say that one may be symbolically freed from the tree either by cutting or burning it down.  The fell trio summoned up from Hell by Arya -- Jaqen (the maester), Biter (the wyvern) and Rorge (the hellhound) -- who hack their way out with the axe from the inside are unlocking the door of Hell, using the 'key' = 'axe' Arya tossed them through the bars.  @LmL : In your preferred terms, Arya is the busybody comet messing with the order of the universe by playing midwife.  The escape of the prisoners from the 'tree' wagon is a bloody affair, a (re)birth at which she assists -- and a synonym for the birth of a baby is 'delivery' or in other words 'liberation' from the womb (a 'triple-goddess function).  This is yet another iteration of the womb-tomb principle of Kali the mother goddess.

The 'monstrous beast' has been released from hell!  Who is he?  Is he one of the fugitives or someone separate (making the trio his three 'apprentices' accompanying him, 'the thing that came in the night...')?

Considering that in traditional literary depictions of Hell, pre-eminently Dante's 'Inferno', the arch-fiend Lucifer himself is incarcerated IN ICE in the innermost, so-called ninth circle of Hell, we may speculate that the prisoner is the 'Great Other', whoever that may have been originally.  Thus, we have a fiery, warm-blooded being immobilized with manacles of ice.  Analogously, Bloodraven is manacled by the weirwood tree.  Weirwoods are thus ice trees pinioning fiery beings; and it's the reason I've been positing the warm-blooded being imprisoned in the weirwood 'Black Gate' of the Wall (the equivalent of Dante's innermost ninth circle), despite being encased in an icy cage, shed a warm tear!

Paradoxically, the reason Lucifer doesn't just melt the ice and break free is that he's also the one responsible for elaborating the ice due to the cooling wind created by the beat of his own wings as he struggles to escape the stranglehold of the ice.  Analogously, perhaps, the one imprisoned in the weirwood (Black Gate) is responsible for the ice surrounding him?  Perhaps the architect of the Wall himself -- the one known as 'Brandon the Builder'?  It would be great irony that the one laying the foundation of the Wall is also himself lying in its foundation!  Thus does humanity dig its own grave.  We build as we break; and break as we build.

It's also noteworthy that Dante's Lucifer has THREE HEADS -- so that would fit with the trio we see emerging from the tree.  Accordingly, I tend to agree with @LynnS's intriguing suggestion that 'the dragon has three heads' might be referring to Bloodraven and his three apprentices, namely Jon, Bran and Arya, instead of Dany and the great anticipated Targ restoration with all the secret Targlings creeping out of the woodwork for the party (sorry, bad pun ;)).

As to the 'white-haired' woman performing the sacrifice at Winterfell, perhaps she has white hair because she's an albino or dragon-blooded, not because she's old.  So what was a dragon-blooded individual doing at Winterfell during the 'bronze' age (bronze sickle)?

@GloubieBoulga Nice catch with the 'Last Hearth' (it's like the final frontier of the 'curtain of light' and whatever it was he saw behind it, probably also fiery since it burned his tears, in Bran's coma dream).  The upraised fists puncturing the equanimity of the landscape is a visual representation of the 'mute appeal' or 'silent shout' of whoever was violated in the past.  The 'bar sinister' or 'big bastard' creeping up behind' like a storm and looking for vengeance (P.S.  Gloubie, nice new thread -- congratulations!  I will be commenting soon :)).

@LmL  the 'fist', besides being an Yggdrasil weirwood burning brand reference, is a kind of 'horn' in a way rising out of and puncturing the landscape.  It reminds me of Varamyr aka 'Lump' and 'Bump' connoting the idea of someone with horns (by the way, what's your answer to Patchface's riddle 'under the sea, no one wears hats..?!

My goodness!  That's brilliant! :cheers:

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

My goodness!  That's brilliant! :cheers:

Yeah ditto, lots of good wordplay there RR :)  Love all that felon stuff, makes the mute appeal even richer, lol PAROLE DENIED

As for what is in the net, and specifically trapped in WF... I think the winged snake whose roar was a river of flame is the answer. Either that was a dragon hatching, or it was meant to be symbolic of one who will. And that could mean a dragon person like old Azor finding a way to escape instead of an actual dragon. Or maybe wwnet takes over a dead dragon to make the wight dragon. Basically there is no way this doesn't end all creepy and cool. This is like 8,000 year old Job form the lawnmower man, I love it. 

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57 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 It would be great irony that the one laying the foundation of the Wall is also himself lying in its foundation!  Thus does humanity dig its own grave.  We build as we break; and break as we build.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

The next door was made of rusty iron. Behind it was a flight of wooden steps. Dolorous Edd led the way with his lantern. Up top they found a tunnel as long as Winterfell's great hall though no wider than the wormways. The walls were ice, bristling with iron hooks. From each hook hung a carcass: skinned deer and elk, sides of beef, huge sows swinging from the ceiling, headless sheep and goats, even horse and bear. Hoarfrost covered everything.

As they did their count, Jon peeled the glove off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There's a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than even Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should.

A Game of Thrones - Arya I

That brought more laughter from the Lannisters, more curses from Robb. Ser Rodrik's face was beet-red with fury under the white of his whiskers. Theon kept Robb locked in an iron grip until the princes and their party were safely away.

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. "The show is done," he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. "You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

 

I'm starting to wonder if the Starks were always dragons.  The First Men came with fire in their fists.  Perhaps they weren't just wielding burning brandsConsider the great horn that Melisandre purports to destroy and the similarity between Euron's Dragonbinder horn.  It's not just a great horn; it is banded and runed as well. 

The powers that Mirri awakens and that Dany sees; the great wolf and the man limned in flame. Melisandre sees the same thing in her fires.  Perhaps this is why Melisandre says this is her battle also and the Wall is as much her place as Jon's.  Maybe this isn't about Targaryen blood but something much older.

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 What does the Whitetree weirwood  have in common with dragons?

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A Clash of Kings - Jon II

Whitetree, the village was named on Sam's old maps. Jon did not think it much of a village. Four tumbledown one-room houses of unmortared stone surrounded an empty sheepfold and a well. The houses were roofed with sod, the windows shuttered with ragged pieces of hide. And above them loomed the pale limbs and dark red leaves of a monstrous great weirwood.

It was the biggest tree Jon Snow had ever seen, the trunk near eight feet wide, the branches spreading so far that the entire village was shaded beneath their canopy. The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.

Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

"An old tree." Mormont sat his horse, frowning. "Old," his raven agreed from his shoulder. "Old, old, old."

Thoren Smallwood dismounted beside the trunk, dark in his plate and mail. "Look at that face. Small wonder men feared them, when they first came to Westeros. I'd like to take an axe to the bloody thing myself."

Jon said, "My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying."

"My father believed the same," said the Old Bear. "Let me have a look at that skull."

Jon dismounted. Slung across his back in a black leather shoulder sheath was Longclaw, the hand-and-a-half bastard blade the Old Bear had given him for saving his life. A bastard sword for a bastard, the men joked. The hilt had been fashioned new for him, adorned with a wolf's-head pommel in pale stone, but the blade itself was Valyrian steel, old and light and deadly sharp.

He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire. Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off. It was half-buried in ash and bits of bone.

When he brought the skull to Mormont, the Old Bear lifted it in both hands and stared into the empty sockets. "The wildlings burn their dead. We've always known that. Now I wished I'd asked them why, when there were still a few around to ask."

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I

"I have too many councillors and too few cushions." Dany turned to Reznak. "How many more?"

or lambs, no doubt." sheep"Three-and-twenty, if it please Your Magnificence. With as many claims." The seneschal consulted some papers. "One calf and three goats. The rest will be

"Three-and-twenty." Dany sighed. "My dragons have developed a prodigious taste for mutton since we began to pay the shepherds for their kills. Have these claims been proven?"

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I

His tongue flicked nervously over chapped, cracked lips. "I … I brought …"

"Bones?" she said, impatiently. "Burnt bones?"

He lifted the sack, and spilled its contents on the marble.

"Are you deaf, fool?" Reznak mo Reznak demanded of the man. "Did you not hear my pronouncement? See my factors on the morrow, and you shall be paid for your sheep."

"Reznak," Ser Barristan said quietly, "hold your tongue and open your eyes. bones." Those are no sheep

No, Dany thought, those are the bones of a child.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"I do not know, Your Grace, but I would sooner not risk your person to learn the answer."

When Rhaegal roared, a gout of yellow flame turned darkness into day for half a heartbeat. The fire licked along the walls, and Dany felt the heat upon her face, like the blast from an oven. Across the pit, Viserion's wings unfolded, stirring the stale air. He tried to fly to her, but the chains snapped taut as he rose and slammed him down onto his belly. Links as big as a man's fist bound his feet to the floor. The iron collar about his neck was fastened to the wall behind him. Rhaegal wore matching chains. In the light of Selmy's lantern, his scales gleamed like jade. Smoke rose from between his teeth. Bones were scattered on the floor at his feet, cracked and scorched and splintered. The air was uncomfortably hot and smelled of sulfur and charred meat.

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon X

A warhorn, a bloody great warhorn.

"Yes," Mance said. "The Horn of Winter, that Joramun once blew to wake giants from the earth."

The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes.

 

@LmLThere's your world tree -- literally.  LOL.  Now we know why the CotF call themselves the squirrel people.

http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/giants/nidhogg/

Dragons were once worshipped as gods; so they also qualify as the old gods and I suspect that R'hllorists also worship a dragon as a god. Melisandre says he exists, so possibly in the Great Temple at Volantis.  Is there another, I wonder at Vaes Dothrak beneath the mountain?

 

 

 

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On 3/12/2017 at 3:14 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

Or is the Wall a dragon with a weirwood as heart ? 

 

On 3/12/2017 at 3:22 AM, ravenous reader said:

Yeah -- the heart tree!

I'm thinking of the ancient greenseer trapped in the black gate.  He's the analog of a dragon trapped in a tree that you often find in many comparative mythologies.  

Alternatively, maybe the dragon as Wall has swallowed him?  There's all that talk of the 'ice dragon's gullet' or 'bowels'.

 

With the rising tide of magic the Black Gate is reaching out. The old, blind 'gate' was awoken after a long, long slumber. (I've always wondered if the Gate is blind from age or was blinded before becoming the gatekeeper. I lean towards the latter.)

Bran sees this tiny weirwood bursting through the kitchen floor of the Nightfort which I believe is part of the underground structure of the Wall. 

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The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

That slender weirwood is an arm with red hands stretching out from below the fort. That couldn't have happened overnight. The new growth must have begun some years before anyone knew the old powers were stirring. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 What does the Whitetree weirwood  have in common with dragons?

@LmLThere's your world tree -- literally.  LOL.  Now we know why the CotF call themselves the squirrel people.

http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/giants/nidhogg/

Dragons were once worshipped as gods; so they also qualify as the old gods and I suspect that R'hllorists also worship a dragon as a god. Melisandre says he exists, so possibly in the Great Temple at Volantis.  Is there another, I wonder at Vaes Dothrak beneath the mountain?

 

 

 

Ah, I love love love the connection between the Whitetree weir and the dragon's maw! Terrific!  I think it's really weird that the inside of the mouth is blackened by fire... so did they start a small fire in the mouth, then put it out before the whole tree caught? There was a bunch of ash in there, so... it's weird. It's terrific for symbolism's sake, we've just never heard of using fire with weirwood sacrifice elsewhere that I know. 

I definitely think Ratatosk is the influence behind the "squirrel people" name. You recall the scene at Whitetree with Giant - also called squirrel - climbing the weirwood? He's even called "a little man" up in the branches. 

And yeah, a dragon caught in the roots of the tree? Does that have an ASOIAF analog? let me think... nope, nothing. ;) 

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On 3/12/2017 at 10:47 AM, LynnS said:

I wonder about the weirwood at Whitetree.  So far it's the only weirwood with an actual mouth carved into it which recieves offerings burnt and otherwise large enough to stuff a sheep. 

The Gate under the Wall is similar in the way it receives offerings/sacrifices. It consumes them and then spits them out. Whitetree takes the dead and passes them on to the world of the dead dead. The Gate passes on the living. The Heart of Winter (the Cave) is the medium between death and life. So, yeah, the three are connected. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

 

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8 hours ago, LmL said:

I agree - there seems to have been some kind of massive blood sacrifice ritual on the Isle of Faces in order to give the trees faces. Without derailing the thread, I will just say that one of the conclusions I am most sure of in all of my research is that the Hammer of the waters was a meteor impact event which occurred at the time of the long night, not thousands of years before as we are told. We don't need to go into all the details, but the point is, if I am right about that, then The Pact was likely signed right after the long night, which I think makes a great deal more sense anyways because the idea of most of the first men dying during the long night, and then being saved in part by help from the children seems like a good reason for the first minute to switch religions, something that did not make that much sense otherwise. My point is here that if the trees were given faces around the time of The Pact - and we aren't told that this was the first time trees were ever given faces, just that many trees were given faces at this time, so this is obviously speculative - it may be that this was the first time any trees were given faces. I personally do not think the children were carving them before men got here, although again that's speculation. Basically, I just wanted to say that it is at least possible that whatever happened on the Isle of faces might have happened at the time of the long night and not thousands of years before, and that's it maybe that the face carving only started around the time of the long night.

The problem I have with the pact ending The Long Night is how far South the Isle of Faces is.  If the Wall and Winterfell were a significant part of The Long Night the pact would have been signed in the North.  The First Men moved South to North,  so I assume the pact was signed when the Isle of Faces was the farthest North men settled,  and The Long Night was fought later when the Wall was the farthest North men settled. 

This is why I keep going back to The Long Night being retribution for men breaking the pact.

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1 hour ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:
Quote

The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

That slender weirwood is an arm with red hands stretching out from below the fort. That couldn't have happened overnight. The new growth must have begun some years before anyone knew the old powers were stirring. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Lady Melisandre wore no crown, but every man there knew that she was Stannis Baratheon's real queen, not the homely woman he had left to shiver at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. Talk was, the king did not mean to send for Queen Selyse and their daughter until the Nightfort was ready for habitation. Jon felt sorry for them. The Wall offered few of the comforts that southron ladies and little highborn girls were used to, and the Nightfort offered none. That was a grim place, even at the best of times.

A Storm of Swords - Bran III

"I couldn't even close it. The wood's too warped. They won't get past those iron gates, though."

"They might. They could break the lock, or the hinges. Or climb up through the murder hole as we did."

Lightning slashed the sky, and Hodor whimpered. Then a clap of thunder rolled across the lake. "HODOR!" he roared, clapping his hands over his ears and stumbling in a circle through the darkness. "HODOR! HODOR! HODOR!"

 

Oh my! What could possibly go wrong.  :o

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1 hour ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

The Gate under the Wall is similar in the way it receives offerings/sacrifices. It consumes them and then spits them out. Whitetree takes the dead and passes them on to the world of the dead dead. The Gate passes on the living. The Heart of Winter (the Cave) is the medium between death and life. So, yeah, the three are connected. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

 

I think this fits the symbolism around the god Trios!

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"I am sorry about your brother." Tyrion had said the same words to her before, back in Volantis, but she was so far gone in grief back there that he doubted she had heard them.

She heard them now. "Sorry. You are sorry." Her lip was trembling, her cheeks were wet, her eyes were red-rimmed holes. "We left King's Landing that very night. My brother said it was for the best, before someone wondered if we'd had some part in the king's death and decided to torture us to find out. We went to Tyrosh first. My brother thought that would be far enough, but it wasn't. We knew a juggler there. For years and years he would juggle every day by the Fountain of the Drunken God. He was old, so his hands were not as deft as they had been, and sometimes he would drop his balls and chase them across the square, but the Tyroshi would laugh and throw him coins all the same. Then one morning we heard that his body had been found at the Temple of Trios. Trios has three heads, and there's a big statue of him beside the temple doors. The old man had been cut into three parts and pushed inside the threefold mouths of Trios. Only when the parts were sewn back together, his head was gone."

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

One time, the girl remembered, the Sailor's Wife had walked her rounds with her and told her tales of the city's stranger gods. "That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do.

 

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1 hour ago, LmL said:

Ah, I love love love the connection between the Whitetree weir and the dragon's maw! Terrific!  I think it's really weird that the inside of the mouth is blackened by fire... so did they start a small fire in the mouth, then put it out before the whole tree caught? There was a bunch of ash in there, so... it's weird. It's terrific for symbolism's sake, we've just never heard of using fire with weirwood sacrifice elsewhere that I know. 

This is what Jojen says about fire:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

Summer howled, and darted away.

"The godswood." Meera Reed ran after the direwolf, her shield and frog spear to hand. The rest of them trailed after, threading their way through smoke and fallen stones. The air was sweeter under the trees. A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire."

 

It sounds like the weirwood has some resistance to fire.
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4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The problem I have with the pact ending The Long Night is how far South the Isle of Faces is.  If the Wall and Winterfell were a significant part of The Long Night the pact would have been signed in the North.  The First Men moved South to North,  so I assume the pact was signed when the Isle of Faces was the farthest North men settled,  and The Long Night was fought later when the Wall was the farthest North men settled. 

Not necessarily. The Wall certainly provided a last bastion but men were settled there of old - the Thenns and whoever fortified the Fist for a start, without getting into questions as to humans who weren't First Men. The Pact as it has come down to us didn't establish a geographical frontier but rather a series of reservations all over the south - in the deep woods and so on - until the Andals came along.

That the Isle of Faces was chosen as the site for making the Pact is just another indicator that the First Men didn't impose the peace but may have been compelled to accept it.

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