Black Crow

Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

399 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Is there evidence of a man limned in flame with a great wolf in GRRM's books?

Rickard Stark burning in his armor when Brandon (the wild wolf) is trying to escape and save his father can match, I think. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Rickard Stark burning in his armor when Brandon (the wild wolf) is trying to escape and save his father can match, I think. 

Visually it might. Arguably the executions [first the father then the son?] served if not as the trigger, then the symbol for the start of the overthrow of House Targaryen, but whether in themselves Rickard and Brandon were significant enough to qualify for an invitiation to the party in the tent I don't know. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Rickard Stark burning in his armor when Brandon (the wild wolf) is trying to escape and save his father can match, I think. 

That's a good one, perhaps some kind of forshadowing.  I go to Dany's dragon dream where she sees the line of kings in faded raiment hold swords of pale fire (palestone sword).  I take this to mean that she is seeing the line of her ancestors not unlike Jaime seeing the shadows of his ancestors back to Lann the Clever, or Jon and Ned seeing their line of ancestors in the crypts and in dreams.

But what does pale fire look like?  Is it blue flame?  Dany herself is consumed and transformed by dragon breath in that dream.  She becomes the dragon and flies.  The dragon sings to her, she becomes that dragon.  Inside the stone cavern with it's high stone arches and cave door with the red light of dawn shining through; somewhere on the Dothraki plains.  She shares a soul with the dragon, not unlike the Starks and their wolves.  It's the last dragon and perhaps the last dragon worshipped as a god.  She is transformed and has temporary immunity from the funeral fire and hatche the dragon eggs.

This is the black dragon represented by Rhaegar's armor; but neither he or Viserys are the true dragon.  Only Dany shares a soul with this dragon.  It's the metaphorical comet with a flaming red sword.  The red comet arrives on the day of her rebirth from salt tears and smoke in MMD's tent. 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

, do you?" dragon the wake"… don't want to

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

…" dragon the wake"… don't want to

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

…"the dragon"…

 

 

This is also the first attempt to forge the sword Lightbringer in water.  Drogo who would be Dany's instrument or sword submerged in a bath of water and split in two.  

If Dany is the true dragon, Jon is the true sword. He doesn't come down the bloodline through Aerys or Rhaegar; but from another of Jaehaerys' lines through the Baratheons.  He has more of the north in him and less of the dragon.

The prophecies are a mashup:

- Dany is reborn amidst salt tears and smoke, the comet appears on the day of her rebirth

- Jon is born at the saltpans among smoking beehives; the sleeping lion nearly torn in two (Azor Ahai plunged his sword into the heart of a lion and it split in two)

- Jon will be resurrected from saltwater in the smokehouse at the Wall

 

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/22/2017 at 6:17 PM, Black Crow said:

Aaaah... 

You have obviously never slept under a full moon on top of the great barrow itself - Silbury Hill - or walked in the other magic places of Britain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbury_Hill

 

Lucky you!

Britain has many barrows; I once spent a winter hunting them out.

Spain also has some amazing barrows, starting with the barrow of Antequera 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen_of_Menga

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@LynnS

That's the first time I think to reliate Daenerys's red door with the "black gate" and the Wall, because of the insistant dichotomy beyond/behind (and also the red color who remind the red sap of the weirwood, red as blood). That's very interesting and reinforce the link between the Stark and the Targaryen. 

I always wondered if queen Alysanne made some dragon's dreams in which she had identified the North and the Starks. 

 

[Note also that in this Dany's dreams, we find again the trio Viserys-Rhaegar-Rhaego who appears in a vision of the HOTU (I had totally forgotten that this trio had a first appearance ): 

Quote

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . 

So the visions could resume the life of the dragon from the birth to the "death"

End of parenthesis]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

@LynnS

That's the first time I think to reliate Daenerys's red door with the "black gate" and the Wall, because of the insistant dichotomy beyond/behind (and also the red color who remind the red sap of the weirwood, red as blood). That's very interesting and reinforce the link between the Stark and the Targaryen. 

I always wondered if queen Alysanne made some dragon's dreams in which she had identified the North and the Starks. 

 

[Note also that in this Dany's dreams, we find again the trio Viserys-Rhaegar-Rhaego who appears in a vision of the HOTU (I had totally forgotten that this trio had a first appearance ): 

So the visions could resume the life of the dragon from the birth to the "death"

End of parenthesis]

I associate the above quote and that trio more with war than anything else all of them failed or eliminated in one way or the other. None of the are the true dragon, the one who shares a soul with the dragon in her dreams.   It's curious that she dreams of home on the Dothraki plains or is this the dream of the dragon itself.   The reason why Drogon heads to the plains when he escapes.  A dragon that has it's lair in a great stone cavern with high stone arches; might see the opening of the cavern as a door; the red light of sunrise or sunset showing through. I'm reminded of the direwolf POV's and how they see the world of men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I associate the above quote and that trio more with war than anything else all of them failed or eliminated in one way or the other. None of the are the true dragon, the one who shares a soul with the dragon in her dreams.  

Yes, that's true, but I'm now wondering if they don't represent the 3 heads of the dragon. I mean that Daenerys could have need these three death to make a entire dragon. 

 

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

  It's curious that she dreams of home on the Dothraki plains or is this the dream of the dragon itself.   The reason why Drogon heads to the plains when he escapes. 

For me, that's because Drogo's soul went inside Drogon during the pyre, and Dany anticipate this in her dream, like she anticipates the waking of the dragon.  

 

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

A dragon that has it's lair in a great stone cavern with high stone arches; might see the opening of the cavern as a door; the red light of sunrise or sunset showing through. I'm reminded of the direwolf POV's and how they see the world of men.

Yes, vision of Winterfell, very true. 

But in the same time, dragons are not only "winged beast" but also "chthonic" beasts : they come from mountains, Targaryen had chosen the site of Dragonstone for their house and dragon's egg were kept inside the mountain like a mother's belly, Valyria was a land of mountains too... Normally, at this point, we come back to the Wall as an Icedragon :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Yes, that's true, but I'm now wondering if they don't represent the 3 heads of the dragon. I mean that Daenerys could have need these three death to make a entire dragon. 

 

For me, that's because Drogo's soul went inside Drogon during the pyre, and Dany anticipate this in her dream, like she anticipates the waking of the dragon.  

 

Yes, vision of Winterfell, very true. 

But in the same time, dragons are not only "winged beast" but also "chthonic" beasts : they come from mountains, Targaryen had chosen the site of Dragonstone for their house and dragon's egg were kept inside the mountain like a mother's belly, Valyria was a land of mountains too... Normally, at this point, we come back to the Wall as an Icedragon :D

I'm not in agreement with the standard interpretation of the three heads of the dragon.  Aemon suggests that the three heads are advisors rather than riders.  I'm more inclined to think that 'the dragon has three heads' refers to Bloodraven a dragon with three apprentices: Jon, Bran and Arya.

I don't agree that Drogo's soul went into one of the dragon eggs.  Dany sees his soul rising into the stars on his stallion.  It's the dragon dream and the last dragon (before the birth of her three children); that confers on her the ability to withstand the fire.  She shares a soul with that dragon.  I think this is separate from the three eggs.  They are given to her to be their mother in a sense by the dragon in her dream.  It's curious that once there were dragons worshipped as gods.  I think this is the last dragon god, possibly even R'hllor whom Melisandres says is male and exists.  That Dany shares a soul with this dragon in the same way as the Starks do with their direwolves, marks this dream as something different.  She doesn't have that relationship with Drogon or any of her other dragon children.  But they know who she is even if she has forgotten.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Lucky you!

Britain has many barrows; I once spent a winter hunting them out.

Spain also has some amazing barrows, starting with the barrow of Antequera 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen_of_Menga

While Stonehenge, which also lies in the barrow lands, gets all the publicity, there is far more magic in Silbury Hill - especially in the clear moonlight of a summer night.:commie:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

While Stonehenge, which also lies in the barrow lands, gets all the publicity, there is far more magic in Silbury Hill - especially in the clear moonlight of a summer night.:commie:

I don't doubt it for a moment! Then there's Avebury...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I don't doubt it for a moment! Then there's Avebury...

There is, but its not Silbury...

It raises an interesting point though. The Great Barrow and the Barrowlands are transferred without alteration to Westeros, but the stone circles are become weirwood groves. Now, most of the stone circles, like the weirwoods north of Castle Black and that destroyed one on top of High Heart are closely spaced. Might there be larger ones like Avebury where the circle is so large that unless you know the secret .you might think they were simply individual weirwoods.

And that, naughtily leads back to the Wall and one of the symbols inserted by the mummers - a circle bisected by a line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There is, but its not Silbury...

It raises an interesting point though. The Great Barrow and the Barrowlands are transferred without alteration to Westeros, but the stone circles are become weirwood groves. Now, most of the stone circles, like the weirwoods north of Castle Black and that destroyed one on top of High Heart are closely spaced. Might there be larger ones like Avebury where the circle is so large that unless you know the secret .you might think they were simply individual weirwoods.

And that, naughtily leads back to the Wall and one of the symbols inserted by the mummers - a circle bisected by a line.

Well spotted on the phi.

Have you seen this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Oo9jAo5ug

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Well spotted on the phi.

Have you seen this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Oo9jAo5ug

 

No, I'd missed that one, but while we're obviously coming at the theme from a different angle it still makes me wonder about the Wall - the circle represents the whole - whether or not it is physically marked as a great stone weirwood circle - and the Wall is the line dividing it Ice from Fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

North and north and north.... Sansa looks at Winterfell.  Where is Bran looking if the Wall is the 'end of the world'?

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Sansa VI

From the high battlements of the gatehouse, the whole world spread out below them. Sansa could see the Great Sept of Baelor on Visenya's hill, where her father had died. At the other end of the Street of the Sisters stood the fire-blackened ruins of the Dragonpit. To the west, the swollen red sun was half-hidden behind the Gate of the Gods. The salt sea was at her back, and to the south was the fish market and the docks and the swirling torrent of the Blackwater Rush. And to the north …

 

She turned that way, and saw only the city, streets and alleys and hills and bottoms and more streets and more alleys and the stone of distant walls. Yet she knew that beyond them was open country, farms and fields and forests, and beyond that, north and north and north again, stood Winterfell.

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

 

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

No, I'd missed that one, but while we're obviously coming at the theme from a different angle it still makes me wonder about the Wall - the circle represents the whole - whether or not it is physically marked as a great stone weirwood circle - and the Wall is the line dividing it Ice from Fire.

Of course we come from different angles- it's what make the forum so lively! 

Your posts have reminded me of my impressions of Silbury Hill, though you know it in high summer, and I, in deep winter.

I found that video to be most satisfying as it confirms a long-held belief that proportions and aesthetics affect us profoundly. 

Anyway, time to cook up a tasty meal for a very cold and windy March afternoon!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey folks, I saw the convo about the man limned in flame and the wolf. Pardon me if someone has put this forward already, but there are two quotes which I believe link to that scene in Mirri's tent with  “the shadow of a great wolf and a man wreathed in flames” :

Quote

 

Up above them, flaming figures were dancing in the snow. The wights, Bran realized. Someone set the wights on fire. Summer was snarling and snapping as he danced around the closest, a great ruin of a man wreathed in swirling flame. He shouldn’t get so close, what is he doing?

Then he saw himself, sprawled facedown in the snow. Summer was trying to drive the thing away from him. What will happen if it kills me? the boy wondered. Will I be Hodor for good or all? Will I go back into Summer’s skin? Or will I just be dead?

 

and

Quote

 

Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

 

I have my own interpretation of what these connections mean - I think it all has to do with the King of Winter figure, who is both a burning man and a shadow wolf.  I believe this symbolism primarily applies to Jon, and I have always liked the idea that Drogo's botched resurrection type thing was actually a skinchanger resurrection ceremony used as if Drogo was bonded to his horse. If you swap Jon and Ghost into that scene I think we have the recipe, or something close to it. Jon goes into Ghost, Ghost is sacrificed to send the merged man-wold spirit back into the corpse, which is in turn resurrected by fire magic. Presto, a man that is a wolf and then a man again who is also limned in flames, or "wreathed" in flames like a proper King of Winter. 

Does everyone know the King of Winter mythology as a burning wicker man? He's made of dead green things - formerly green things you might say - and his destiny is to burn when the winter gives way to spring (which it just did!)  That is our special snowflake. 

Anyway, whether or not you like my interpretation, these quotes do seem linked so I thought I would share them so you all can make of them what you will, and in case anyone had not shared them yet. If anyone is interested, my full thoughts on these issues can be found in my Sacred Order of Green Zombies series, which addresses things related to horned gods, green men, resurrection, skinchangers, Coldhands, Jon Snow, the King of Winter, the last hero and his 12, etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

@LML Hey folks, I saw the convo about the man limned in flame and the wolf. Pardon me if someone has put this forward already, but there are two quotes which I believe link to that scene in Mirri's tent with  “the shadow of a great wolf and a man wreathed in flames”

I'm guessing that with Jon dead, that he is 'split in two' and that he will be resurrected in a ritual something similar to MMD's with Jon in a bath of saltwater.  The difference being that Melisandre will force the combined soul of Jon/Ghost back into his body with fire magic; sacrificing Ghost in the process, not unlike Orel's eagle.  I think you mentioned this before.  So Jon may well return with a soul of fire in an ice preserved body.       

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shadows of the wolf and man in flames that Mirri conjured were old spirits so IMO they were not Rickard or Jon or anybody in recent history. Like Melisandre said the struggle between ice and fire, light and dark, etc is very old, but what I don't get is that no one has realized that each side needs to accept the other to achieve harmony. Eliminating one side is disastrous. Never ending summer would be just as bad as never ending winter. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.