Bigger Badass currently: Arya or Jon?

[Gaz0680]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

The same Arya who stood toe to toe with Tywin Lannister and told him anyone can be killed?  You think she would be afraid of some zombies?  Arya has never run away from a fight in her life.

Exactly.

She didn't run from the waif even. She moved herself from her bad position Into a good one to control the fight from a position of strength. Her running was never about avoiding the fight completely. Arya was always going to fight the Waif. She just wanted to be the one in control when the fight took place.

6 hours ago, Short Claw said:

Badass's don't run from a fight, sorry. Sneaking up on someone in a disguise and stabbing them in the back is not bad ass. Makes for a good assassin, yes, bad ass no. The viper was a bad ass. Arya has accomplished nothing, save for a few meaningless kills. John has faced wights (arya would pee he little panties), killed a WW, beat the bejesus out of Ramsay, faced numerous opponents on the battle field, etc. 

This whole conversation is a joke. 

No it isn't. 

And faced with a white walker, Arya wouldn't "pee her little panties". She has continually been shown to be one of, if not the bravest character both in the books and on the show.

She wasn't scared or intimidated in the least by Tywin Lannister and even had the courage to challenge him when the vast majority of adults in Westeros were shit scared of Tywin and would never have spoken to him in the manner Arya did..."7 Kingdoms united in fear of Tywin Lannister" as Tyrion put it.

Arya stood her ground with the Hound and even earned his respect. The Hound is a brutally large, strong and ferocious fighter who scared the crap out of Sansa and most everybody else. Arya even had the courage to threaten his life "one day, I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull". 

She stood up to Joffrey, the prince, when he was being an asshole bully to her friend.

[Gaz0680]

6 hours ago, Short Claw said:

Badass's don't run from a fight, sorry. Sneaking up on someone in a disguise and stabbing them in the back is not bad ass. Makes for a good assassin, yes, bad ass no.

That's a load of horseshit and you know it.

Badasses are survivors. They don't commit suicide by fighting from a position they can't win. 

Jon ran at Hardhome, along with the rest of the survivors. They didn't stay and fight to the death. Does that mean Jon is not badass because he ran from a fight??

Use your head. Think of the situation. Arya had routinely been thrashed by the waif during training. The waif was older, stronger and more experienced. Arya knew that. Also, Arya was unarmed and had just been stabbed in the guts not long before that. 

Would a badass stay and fight from a position they can't win and just die meekly or would they use everything they have to move themself to a better place to where they can control the fight?? For me, the latter is 100% more badass, which is exactly what Arya did.

Everyone has to know their limits. Remember, in the books, Arya is a 9 year old girl. In the show, she's a few years older, but still barely in her teens. She can't just go and combat fully grown adults directly head on and expect to win. If she did that, it wouldn't be badassery. It would be absolute stupidity. She has to use the element of surprise and otherwise put herself in position of advantage to win. 

Same thing for the Viper, who you called a badass. He knew his limits also. He couldn't just go and out brute force the Mountain. He had a bide his time, which is why Oberyn was twisting and twirling and staying out of the mountain's reach for most of the fight until an opening presented itself.

Same with Bronn. When he fought Ser Vardis, he was moving a lot and Lady Arryn even called out "Stand and fight, coward". Bronn wasn't being a coward, he was being smart and waiting for his more heavily armoured opponent to tire before making his move.

 

 

[Error-504]

6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The same Arya who stood toe to toe with Tywin Lannister and told him anyone can be killed?  You think she would be afraid of some zombies?  Arya has never run away from a fight in her life.

You obviously were'nt watching the waif and Arya fight? Tywin never posed any immediate threat. Now, if you asked if Arya is a smart ass, then the answer is yes.

[Traverys]

On 2/27/2017 at 8:36 PM, jontargaryan said:

Jon Snow

- Defended Castle Black with a skeleton crew of less than 100 men against 100,000 wildings.

- Defeated a White Walker in single combat

- Rescued thousands of Wildings up north in Hardhome against a horde of wights

- Stabbed to death and revived the next day

- Charged against 1000 horses by himself in the Battle of the Bastards

- Retook Winterfell with only 2000 men with inferior equipment

 

 

Arya Stark

- Didn't back down when talking to Tywin Lannister

- Escaped Harrenhall using a Faceless Man

- Left the Hound to die with him begging on his knees for mercy

- Sailed to Bravos to train with the Faceless Man

- Trained in advanced combat techniques as well as deception

- Killed the Waif in single combat

- Assassinated Walder Frey using a disguise

Add to Arya's:

- A young woman that refuses to conform to a misogynistic culture that'd have her wear a dress, have babies, and shut up.

 

[Gaz0680]

29 minutes ago, Short Claw said:

You obviously were'nt watching the waif and Arya fight? Tywin never posed any immediate threat. Now, if you asked if Arya is a smart ass, then the answer is yes.

You clearly weren't watching the Waif-Arya fight if you think Arya was simply running away, as my last post to you pointed out.

Tywin never posed any immediate threat? Are you daft? He was the most powerful man in the seven kingdoms, with armies at his disposal and was considered a monster by many. He wiped out entire families for defying him and would happily have anyone who bothered him killed unless there was a significant reasons for him to not do so.

[Error-504]

5 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

That's a load of horseshit and you know it.

Badasses are survivors. They don't commit suicide by fighting from a position they can't win. 

Jon ran at Hardhome, along with the rest of the survivors. They didn't stay and fight to the death. Does that mean Jon is not badass because he ran from a fight??

Use your head. Think of the situation. Arya had routinely been thrashed by the waif during training. The waif was older, stronger and more experienced. Arya knew that. Also, Arya was unarmed and had just been stabbed in the guts not long before that. 

Would a badass stay and fight from a position they can't win and just die meekly or would they use everything they have to move themself to a better place to where they can control the fight?? For me, the latter is 100% more badass, which is exactly what Arya did.

Everyone has to know their limits. Remember, in the books, Arya is a 9 year old girl. In the show, she's a few years older, but still barely in her teens. She can't just go and combat fully grown adults directly head on and expect to win. If she did that, it wouldn't be badassery. It would be absolute stupidity. She has to use the element of surprise and otherwise put herself in position of advantage to win. 

Same thing for the Viper, who you called a badass. He knew his limits also. He couldn't just go and out brute force the Mountain. He had a bide his time, which is why Oberyn was twisting and twirling and staying out of the mountain's reach for most of the fight until an opening presented itself.

Same with Bronn. When he fought Ser Vardis, he was moving a lot and Lady Arryn even called out "Stand and fight, coward". Bronn wasn't being a coward, he was being smart and waiting for his more heavily armoured opponent to tire before making his move.

 

 

BS. What a load of convoluted revisionist crap. Your attempting to win an argument by redefining the term. You have also completely removed John from the equation, which is laughable, as the original question was, who was more a badass, John or Arya. 

Arya is a likable sharp tongued master of disguise. Nothing wrong with that. She has had a few moments, yes, but none of them came when faced with an opponent mano de mano. Her wins have come via slight of hand, by taking her opponents by surprise. If I walk up to from behind and stab you in the back, I am not a bad ass. When faced with an opponent, of equal size I might add, she ran. And ran. 

A bad ass faces his opponents head on, he/she doesn't cower. The Viper never ran from the Mountain, your confusing fighting style with cowardliness. 

Same with Bronn. 

There is no debate here, the argument is laughable beyond comprehension. John is more of a bad ass than Arya. Probably also more stupid, and less articulate as well. But that's not the argument now is it?

[Error-504]

4 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

You clearly weren't watching the Waif-Arya fight if you think Arya was simply running away, as my last post to you pointed out.

Tywin never posed any immediate threat? Are you daft? He was the most powerful man in the seven kingdoms, with armies at his disposal and was considered a monster by many. He wiped out entire families for defying him and would happily have anyone who bothered him killed unless there was a significant reasons for him to not do so.

did he ever raise a blade to Arya? No. You don't understand the term immediate threat? Spouting off to a cop, doesn't make you a bad ass. Sorry, but you loose again. 

[Error-504]

10 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Add to Arya's:

- A young woman that refuses to conform to a misogynistic culture that'd have her wear a dress, have babies, and shut up.

 

ahhh, now ygritte....bad ass

Brienne....bad ass

My argument has nothing to do with gender. 

[Gaz0680]

5 minutes ago, Short Claw said:

BS. What a load of convoluted revisionist crap. Your attempting to win an argument by redefining the term. You have also completely removed John from the equation, which is laughable, as the original question was, who was more a badass, John or Arya. 

Arya is a likable sharp tongued master of disguise. Nothing wrong with that. She has had a few moments, yes, but none of them came when faced with an opponent mano de mano. Her wins have come via slight of hand, by taking her opponents by surprise. If I walk up to from behind and stab you in the back, I am not a bad ass. When faced with an opponent, of equal size I might add, she ran. And ran. 

A bad ass faces his opponents head on, he/she doesn't cower. The Viper never ran from the Mountain, your confusing fighting style with cowardliness. 

Same with Bronn. 

There is no debate here, the argument is laughable beyond comprehension. John is more of a bad ass than Arya. Probably also more stupid, and less articulate as well. But that's not the argument now is it?

Again, you clearly don't know what badass means. As I pointed out before, badass isn't about being a great fighter or warrior and standing up to your opponents Mano e Mano as you put it. 

Also, I didn't say Bronn or Viper were cowards. Quite the opposite, so please don't accuse me of things I didn't do.

as for fighting styles, a person's fighting style is developed based on their physical and mental attributes to maximise their strengths and minimise their weaknesses. 

Oberyn was not the biggest or strongest guy. He couldn't overpower a lot of other men, so he had to use his skill and speed to beat them, which also meant staying out of their reach, because if a bigger, stronger man got a clean blow on him, he knew he would lose. Still, Oberyn was a fully grown man.

Arya is a teenage girl and has limited experience fighting. How would it be possible for her to fight and defeat an experienced, full grown adult warrior one on one combat when they have an advantage on her not just in strength, size and experience, but also likely skill? Element of surprise is about her only option...and executing that well IS badass.

[Error-504]

1 minute ago, Gaz0680 said:

Again, you clearly don't know what badass means. As I pointed out before, badass isn't about being a great fighter or warrior and standing up to your opponents Mano e Mano as you put it. 

 

adjective, Also, badassed

 

1

distinctively tough or powerful; so exceptional as to be intimidating.

[Gaz0680]

9 minutes ago, Short Claw said:

adjective, Also, badassed

 

1

distinctively tough or powerful; so exceptional as to be intimidating.

Where did you get that definition? That may be your definition of badass. It isn't mine. 

Look at my post on the first page where I listed several informal definitions of the term badass, including the urban dictionary one which had 7 criteria (of which Arya meets all). 

Badass is a slang word, so there is no one official defining term for it. Like I said on first page, you won't find the word badass in an Oxford or Macquarie dictionary for example. The definitions I've found through informal online dictionaries all vary somewhat, so it is VERY open to personal interpretation.

[Lord Lannister]

I'll give it to Jon. He managed to be a badass without compromising the family values. Unless anyone thinks butchering two men, and serving their remnants to their father and who else knows, an honorable deed worthy of House Stark and not just as bad as anything the Freys did.

[Lord Friendzone]

Choosing between Leeroy Jenkins and wannabe ninja assassin? I'd got with wannabe ninja assassin.

[snow is the man]

On 5/11/2017 at 1:26 AM, Lord Lannister said:

I'll give it to Jon. He managed to be a badass without compromising the family values. Unless anyone thinks butchering two men, and serving their remnants to their father and who else knows, an honorable deed worthy of House Stark and not just as bad as anything the Freys did.

maybe not the most moral thing but it was so awesome. Also those creatures had it coming..but that was so brutal and twisted I had to laugh.

[Duranaparthur]

Just going with who I'd be more afraid of angering face to face... Arya.

Jon's a more formidable combatant and has, y'know, come back from the dead, but Jon has rules to follow, with good reason, but still, he follow conventions and guides. Jon's ultimately more of a builder, which arguably means he has more of a positive effect and may be more heroic than Arya, but I'm judging Arya as being the more destructive and dangerous, since she doesn't follow social customs if she thinks they're an impediment to "doing what's right."

Jon regards oaths and promises as laws to be respected in part *because* they're laws, and because he does benefit from them; while he's a bastard (nominally), he's also a noble male member of a Great House and someone who's taken pains to bend rules instead of break them when he can, which is why he became Lord Commander, why he could leave the Nights Watch without being labeled a deserter, why the Wildlings still respect a man who infiltrated and betrayed them, and why he's now King in the North. He's toed the line between pragmatism and honor enough that people feel they can trust him to act certain ways.

Arya, on the other hand, only regards rules from the point of view of are they working and are they useful; they're tools, and tools she can discard the second they become useless or a hindrance. It's a philosophy that's both more dangerous to enemies and less effective at statecraft and construction; Arya may be a war-time leader and a dependable ally in a conflict, but you don't want someone like her in charge of a major faction because other factions couldn't trust her and because enemy elimination is her whole life. Jon has a mind to seek alliances even with ex-enemies; Arya keeps a kill list that you ain't getting off of unless she decides you don't belong on it. And furthering the issue of danger, Arya has adapted her aggression and combat abilities to compensate for her size; Jon hesitates with one assassination plan, and Arya's basically a serial killer.

 

[Gaz0680]

4 hours ago, Duranaparthur said:

Just going with who I'd be more afraid of angering face to face... Arya.

Jon's a more formidable combatant and has, y'know, come back from the dead, but Jon has rules to follow, with good reason, but still, he follow conventions and guides. Jon's ultimately more of a builder, which arguably means he has more of a positive effect and may be more heroic than Arya, but I'm judging Arya as being the more destructive and dangerous, since she doesn't follow social customs if she thinks they're an impediment to "doing what's right."

Jon regards oaths and promises as laws to be respected in part *because* they're laws, and because he does benefit from them; while he's a bastard (nominally), he's also a noble male member of a Great House and someone who's taken pains to bend rules instead of break them when he can, which is why he became Lord Commander, why he could leave the Nights Watch without being labeled a deserter, why the Wildlings still respect a man who infiltrated and betrayed them, and why he's now King in the North. He's toed the line between pragmatism and honor enough that people feel they can trust him to act certain ways.

Arya, on the other hand, only regards rules from the point of view of are they working and are they useful; they're tools, and tools she can discard the second they become useless or a hindrance. It's a philosophy that's both more dangerous to enemies and less effective at statecraft and construction; Arya may be a war-time leader and a dependable ally in a conflict, but you don't want someone like her in charge of a major faction because other factions couldn't trust her and because enemy elimination is her whole life. Jon has a mind to seek alliances even with ex-enemies; Arya keeps a kill list that you ain't getting off of unless she decides you don't belong on it. And furthering the issue of danger, Arya has adapted her aggression and combat abilities to compensate for her size; Jon hesitates with one assassination plan, and Arya's basically a serial killer.

 

Yes, Arya's a killer. I wouldn't agree enemy elimination is her whole life though. Right now, she's consumed by the desire for vengeance, but ultimately, family is her life.

Arya places the least value on honor of any Stark - way less than Ned, Jon, Sansa, Robb or even Bran. However, she still both loved and admired her father greatly. She also dearly loves her siblings, despite the rather difficult relationship she has had with Sansa because of their differences. Arya also is capable of more empathy than any of her siblings and has all the attributes to be an effective peacetime ruler, not just wartime one like say Robert. That is, IF she can let go of her thirst for vengeance. It's currently difficult to see her ever doing that though.

I do agree Arya is practical though. She only treats rules with respect if they are useful and effective and doesn't share the vulnerability most of the rest of her family do when it comes to honor. Indeed, I think if Arya was ever a ruler, her approach to the political side of things would be much closer to a Tyrion or Varys than to a Ned or Jon. 

[snow is the man]

On 5/15/2017 at 4:52 PM, Gaz0680 said:

Yes, Arya's a killer. I wouldn't agree enemy elimination is her whole life though. Right now, she's consumed by the desire for vengeance, but ultimately, family is her life.

Arya places the least value on honor of any Stark - way less than Ned, Jon, Sansa, Robb or even Bran. However, she still both loved and admired her father greatly. She also dearly loves her siblings, despite the rather difficult relationship she has had with Sansa because of their differences. Arya also is capable of more empathy than any of her siblings and has all the attributes to be an effective peacetime ruler, not just wartime one like say Robert. That is, IF she can let go of her thirst for vengeance. It's currently difficult to see her ever doing that though.

I do agree Arya is practical though. She only treats rules with respect if they are useful and effective and doesn't share the vulnerability most of the rest of her family do when it comes to honor. Indeed, I think if Arya was ever a ruler, her approach to the political side of things would be much closer to a Tyrion or Varys than to a Ned or Jon. 

well most of the people she wants dead are already dead. She took the hound off her list so most of the people left are gonna be fighting dany and I don't see that going well for them. Gregor and cersei will be killed then and we haven't heard anything from that executioner. So who is really left on her list. And one her list is done her need for vengence is as well.

[Angel Eyes]

Well as far as numbers go, Jon has 53 deaths onscreen up to the end of Season 6 and Arya has 11.

[Cron]

On 2/27/2017 at 9:36 PM, jontargaryan said:

Jon Snow

- Defended Castle Black with a skeleton crew of less than 100 men against 100,000 wildings.

- Defeated a White Walker in single combat

- Rescued thousands of Wildings up north in Hardhome against a horde of wights

- Stabbed to death and revived the next day

- Charged against 1000 horses by himself in the Battle of the Bastards

- Retook Winterfell with only 2000 men with inferior equipment

 

 

Arya Stark

- Didn't back down when talking to Tywin Lannister

- Escaped Harrenhall using a Faceless Man

- Left the Hound to die with him begging on his knees for mercy

- Sailed to Bravos to train with the Faceless Man

- Trained in advanced combat techniques as well as deception

- Killed the Waif in single combat

- Assassinated Walder Frey using a disguise

I hate to think about Jon fighting Arya, but I think that in order to answer your question that's what we've got to postulate, and to do that I think you have to set the terms of the fight, but in most fights (maybe 85% of the time, I'd say), I'd go with Arya.

What is the setting? Surrounding?  Weapons? Or bare hands?  How far apart are they when the fight begins? Are they wearing armor?  Are Nymeria and Ghost around?

Just a few examples:  Let's say, magically, right now, Jon in Winterfell and Arya at the Twins are suddenly both made to seek out and attempt to cross each other off.  Okay, Jon's toast.  Not even close, no chance, he'll never even see it coming before he's dead.

Open field combat, each with a sword and no armor?  I still give the edge to Arya.  If it's at night in the woods, Jon gets crossed off even faster.

In order for Jon to have ANY chance, I think it's got to be close quarters (a small room that neither can escape), and Jon is going to need some armor.  Ideally for Jon, neither would have any weapon, so he could use his greater size and strength to maximum advantage.

(Naturally, there are many other possible hypothetical too, but those are just a few examples)

But hey, those are just my opinions, and let's all hope we never have to find out.