Did Walder Frey even have a choice?

[WSmith84]

1 minute ago, devilish said:

Why wouldn't side with Robb? The war was way more difficult to lose then to win. Out of 9 regions, 4 rebelled (North, Riverlands, Reach and Stormlands), 3 remained neutral with a big chance of joining later on (The Vale, the Iron Islands and Dorne) and only the Westerlands joined the war at the Crownlands side. All Robb had to do was to rescue his idiotic cousin, he had to bend the knee to Renly and together they would have crushed Tywin by late afternoon. Surely the Stark boy would not be such an idiot to put a crown on his head wouldn't he? Not with a paltry army of 20k

At that point, neither Stannis nor Renly had crowned themselves or rebelled. Walder has no reason to suspect that the Iron Islands, Reach or Stormlands will bestir themselves. Tywin had effectively defeated the Riverlands and the North was isolated. It would have been an extremely simple thing to deny Robb passage, inform Tywin and watch as Tywin and Jaime's armies smashed the Northern army to pieces. Job done. Walder didn't do that. He chose the far riskier option.

[devilish]

1 minute ago, Red Man Racey said:

And yet we do not see any such behavior from Tywin in his treatment of the Tyrells, a house whose rebellion cannot be attributed to simply following their liege lord since House Tyrell is one of the Great Houses and therefore answers directly to the crown. What "extra price" were they required to pay before being rewarded? None whatsoever.

You'll making it sound as if the Lannisters were in a position to do anything to the Tyrells. Towards the end of the war, the army of the Reach was 2-3 times bigger than the Lannisters one and their food kept KL's citizens from ripping the cubs apart. The Tyrells have more men, a better general and can make more allies than Tywin can imagine to have

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

In the midst of slaughter, the Lord of the Crossing sat on his carved oaken throne, watching greedily.

“Heh,” Lord Walder cackled at Robb, “the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I’ll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh.”

Certainly sounds as a man forced to make a tragic choice, heh.

Merrett could hardly think for the pounding in his head. “He shamed us, the whole realm was laughing, we had to cleanse the stain on our honor.” His father had said all that and more.

“Maybe so. What do a bunch o’ bloody peasants know about a lord’s honor?” Yellow cloak wrapped the end of the rope around his hand three times. “We know some about murder, though.”

“Not murder.” His voice was shrill. “It was vengeance, we had a right to our vengeance. It was war."

That's uncanny! Walder is all about his wounded pride, and Merrett is all about wounded Frey pride, and everybody else in the world assigns the Red Wedding to the wounded Frey pride - might be the wounded Frey pride was the reason? Nah. Let's disregard everything we can find in the books and make some shit up instead.

OK, this thread has been a perfect waste of time. Its premise is being in the wrong for the sake of being in the wrong, and discussion is pointless.

But, OP, I'm looking forward to your "Did Ramsay Bolton even have a choice?" thread.

[devilish]

5 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

And yet we do not see any such behavior from Tywin in his treatment of the Tyrells, a house whose rebellion cannot be attributed to simply following their liege lord since House Tyrell is one of the Great Houses and therefore answers directly to the crown. What "extra price" were they required to pay before being rewarded? None whatsoever.

You'll making it sound as if the Lannisters were in a position to do anything to the Tyrells. Towards the end of the war, the army of the Reach was 2-3 times bigger than the Lannisters one and their food kept KL's citizens from ripping the cubs apart. The Tyrells have more men, a better general and can make more allies than Tywin can imagine to have

[WSmith84]

Didn't GRRM also say that if Robb hadn't betrayed Walder, Walder would likely have extracted himself from the alliance anyway, just not so bloodily? So, to George's mind, at least, Walder would still have been prepared to switch sides without committing a Red Wedding. Proof, surely, that the betrayal was Walder's motivating factor, not some fear of reprisals.

[Red Man Racey]

2 minutes ago, devilish said:

If he wanted revenge then he would had just closed the door to the Starks. Tywin would made Hoster last days a living hell and he would have gotten his revenge

Why? The Starks haven't slighted him yet. He sees an opportunity for advancement so he takes it. If he was so afraid of Tywin's retribution that he was forced to execute the Red Wedding then he wouldn't have made a pact with Robb to begin with, he would have left him on the wrong side of the river and sent a raven to CR.

[devilish]

2 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

At that point, neither Stannis nor Renly had crowned themselves or rebelled. Walder has no reason to suspect that the Iron Islands, Reach or Stormlands will bestir themselves. Tywin had effectively defeated the Riverlands and the North was isolated. It would have been an extremely simple thing to deny Robb passage, inform Tywin and watch as Tywin and Jaime's armies smashed the Northern army to pieces. Job done. Walder didn't do that. He chose the far riskier option.

It was pretty obvious that the Baratheon brothers would rebel as much as it was obvious that the Tyrells would side to any side Renly takes. Also there was a bigger chance that the Iron Islands would join the Starks then the crown. Balon's son was Robb's ward. 

Tywin would have probably conquered the Riverlands. However he couldn't possibly hope to keep it. Tyrells and Baratheons had way more troops than him and a much better general too. The big surprise was the fact that the Vale didn't join the fray. 

[devilish]

4 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

In the midst of slaughter, the Lord of the Crossing sat on his carved oaken throne, watching greedily.

“Heh,” Lord Walder cackled at Robb, “the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I’ll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh.”

Certainly sounds as a man forced to make a tragic choice, heh.

Merrett could hardly think for the pounding in his head. “He shamed us, the whole realm was laughing, we had to cleanse the stain on our honor.” His father had said all that and more.

“Maybe so. What do a bunch o’ bloody peasants know about a lord’s honor?” Yellow cloak wrapped the end of the rope around his hand three times. “We know some about murder, though.”

“Not murder.” His voice was shrill. “It was vengeance, we had a right to our vengeance. It was war."

That's uncanny! Walder is all about his wounded pride, and Merrett is all about wounded Frey pride, and everybody else in the world assigns the Red Wedding to the wounded Frey pride - might be the wounded Frey pride was the reason? Nah. Let's disregard everything we can find in the books and make some shit up instead.

OK, this thread has been a perfect waste of time. Its premise is being in the wrong for the sake of being in the wrong, and discussion is pointless.

But, OP, I'm looking forward to your "Did Ramsay Bolton even have a choice?" thread.

So you expected Walder to say

"I had no choice but to do the red wedding. Else my arse will get spanked really hard by Tywin"

Of course he wouldn't do that. He's a Lord.

Roose got the Warden of the North role + Winterfell. Walder had to bend the knee to some odd dude from the fingers who used to be Hoster's cleaner

[WSmith84]

Just now, devilish said:

It was pretty obvious that the Baratheon brothers would rebel as much as it was obvious that the Tyrells would side to any side Renly takes. Also there was a bigger chance that the Iron Islands would join the Starks then the crown. Balon's son was Robb's ward. 

Tywin would have probably conquered the Riverlands. However he couldn't possibly hope to keep it. Tyrells and Baratheons had way more troops than him and a much better general too. The big surprise was the fact that the Vale didn't join the fray. 

Why was it obvious? Because we as readers know it? Walder Frey has no reason to know of the various political machinations that were going on in King's Landing. He couldn't have known that Joffrey and co. were bastards, that Stannis had discovered it and would thus declare himself King. No one had heard from Stannis for about a year. Walder had no idea what Renly was up to and certainly no reason to gamble on Renly crowning himself. All anyone knew is that Renly had left King's Landing. He couldn't have predicted that the Tyrells would side with Renly instead of Joffrey (unless Walder had some very particular insight into the relationship between Loras and Renly).

[devilish]

1 minute ago, WSmith84 said:

Why was it obvious? Because we as readers know it? Walder Frey has no reason to know of the various political machinations that were going on in King's Landing. He couldn't have known that Joffrey and co. were bastards, that Stannis had discovered it and would thus declare himself King. No one had heard from Stannis for about a year. Walder had no idea what Renly was up to and certainly no reason to gamble on Renly crowning himself. All anyone knew is that Renly had left King's Landing. He couldn't have predicted that the Tyrells would side with Renly instead of Joffrey (unless Walder had some very particular insight into the relationship between Loras and Renly).

Ned loved isolation. However most Riverlands Lords didn't. There very independence relied on making friends and allies, through marriages. They also share borders with both crownlands and the Reach so they also know that Renly is pretty close to them too.

Once Ned was arrested and executed then rest assured that most Lords would want to know what's going on. Especially since the Riverlands got attacked. Walder had Emmon in CR and his many marriages/children's marriages gave him access to friends of courts of half Westeros. He might not know the military plans, but basic things such as the fact that Renly escaped would be public knowledge.

Also the Baratheon brothers had no reason to keep things hidden. They needed as many bannermen at their side as possible

 

[WSmith84]

2 minutes ago, devilish said:

So you expected Walder to say

"I had no choice but to do the red wedding. Else my arse will get spanked really hard by Tywin"

Of course he wouldn't do that. He's a Lord.

Roose got the Warden of the North role + Winterfell. Walder had to bend the knee to some odd dude from the fingers who used to be Hoster's cleaner

Walder also got Riverrun, Darry and various marriages. He would have gotten less than that if he had simply switched sides, but he still would have been rewarded. Because that's how you get people to switch sides.

Let's say that Walder won't commit a Red Wedding type event. What are his options? If he sticks with Robb, Tywin now has to march an army into the Riverlands and lay siege to the Twins, which would take years. Or, he has to storm it and lose thousands of men, probably tens of thousands. A lot can change in a couple of years (say, the arrival of a supposed Targaryen, the death of Joffrey/Lysa/Tywin/Kevan/Balon etc.). Are you telling me that Tywin is so malicious that he would rather do this, leaving his army in the Riverlands during the winter (to besiege the Twins, Riverrun, the Blackwoods, the Brackens, Seagard etc. etc.), than simply accepting Walder back with no punishment or even a reward?

[WSmith84]

2 minutes ago, devilish said:

So you expected Walder to say

"I had no choice but to do the red wedding. Else my arse will get spanked really hard by Tywin"

Of course he wouldn't do that. He's a Lord.

Roose got the Warden of the North role + Winterfell. Walder had to bend the knee to some odd dude from the fingers who used to be Hoster's cleaner

Walder also got Riverrun, Darry and various marriages. He would have gotten less than that if he had simply switched sides, but he still would have been rewarded. Because that's how you get people to switch sides.

Let's say that Walder won't commit a Red Wedding type event. What are his options? If he sticks with Robb, Tywin now has to march an army into the Riverlands and lay siege to the Twins, which would take years. Or, he has to storm it and lose thousands of men, probably tens of thousands. A lot can change in a couple of years (say, the arrival of a supposed Targaryen, the death of Joffrey/Lysa/Tywin/Kevan/Balon etc.). Are you telling me that Tywin is so malicious that he would rather do this, leaving his army in the Riverlands during the winter (to besiege the Twins, Riverrun, the Blackwoods, the Brackens, Seagard etc. etc.), than simply accepting Walder back with no punishment or even a reward?

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

Didn't GRRM also say that if Robb hadn't betrayed Walder, Walder would likely have extracted himself from the alliance anyway, just not so bloodily? So, to George's mind, at least, Walder would still have been prepared to switch sides without committing a Red Wedding. Proof, surely, that the betrayal was Walder's motivating factor, not some fear of reprisals.

Yes Yes he did:

We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding?

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

[Morgana Lannister]

On 2/28/2017 at 10:49 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Simply put, it wasn't in Walder Frey's interest to remain aligned with the Starks. They were in decline even before the Red Wedding and dragging House Frey down with them was senseless. Furthermore, his obligation to Robb Stark and the North was null and void given Robb violated their marriage pact. So short of willingly ruining his house, Walder Frey didn't have much of a choice in jumping ship to the Lannisters.

What he did have a choice in was the manner of his betrayal. Had Walder Frey simply closed the Twins to the Starks at an opportune time, recalled his armies and proclaimed he switched sides, or even had his armies openly turn on Robb during the next battle, there wouldn't have been so much negative stigma attached to him. You could've argued if it was a betrayal at all given it could be seen as a proper comeuppance for Robb violating his marriage pact after using the Frey armies and territory in his earlier campaigns.

But in the end Walder Frey had a lifetime of holding grudges, especially against the Tullys. So when presented the opportunity he literally took an orgy of revenge in a single moment for a lifetime's worth of slights. So much to the point his enemies will hate him for generations and even his allies disdain and distrust him.

I have to agree with this.  However, okay, I haven't read all the entries on this topic yet, but yes, everyone "has a choice" I think the question is more like "did he had a choice if he wanted his family to remain powerful?" or something of that ilk...

Now, I love the complexity in George's works and this one is complex in my mind.

On the one hand, we know that it was extremely generous on the part of the Lannisters (at least in appearance)  to marry a daughter of CR to his son...  He also states the Tullys and Starks also saw him as a "lesser Lord." (and he is prickly about it but will go onto that later).  What he does hold if not so much money or honour is the point of passage and that is what Robb begs for.  That makes him powerful and Tywin is not an idiot.  If he were to deny passage, at some point in the story to the Lannisters, the Lannisters would have to beg or threat or do something but they are not passing without his consent (Walder's).  So he hasn't the riches but he has the geographical advantage.  Okay, stating the obvious lol so I think any side should be wary of him.  He can close the bridge and let them to it...

I need to re-read the books because I cannot quite understand what compelled Walder to let Robb pass, even with the offer of marriage... unless Walder is so obsessed with marrying his brood to high houses that he losses all political sense.  In fact LF suffers from this "lower house" inferiority complex too (will go into it another time) but not sure that would be enough to turn Walder, unless he is politically just not shrewd...  Yes, a bannerman of the Tullys in name and allied with the Lannisters behind close doors...  This guy hedges his bets, just like Varys, only not so competently. lol

Tywin, IMHO is totally the opposite of irrational, most of the time... anything to do with Tytos and weakness though sets him over the edge, hence Rains of Castamer, but generally speaking, could be wrong, my perception of him is the "perfect Prince" according to Machiavelli.  The ruthless "modern man at the beginning of the Renaissance... 

To me Tywin got Tysha raped for two reasons; first; to ensure if she was with child it would hard to pin it down to his son; second, to make his son pay for marrying a commoner.  Elia, seems clear that he didn't order it, just simply though life is cheap and well he won the battle so who cares what pillage and rape they committed (part of their wages lol), Castamere I think was more personal but he was younger and the pain of his father's mistress control over his house was blinding him...

I find strong parallels between Tywin and Walder; they both grew up (as did LF) in houses that were disrespected by their own vassals.  In this fantasy context, this could not continue at any rate!  Walder tries the marriages and it's shamed more often than not. Tywin has the money, which I doubt his father had when he died.  I think Tywin (although hate him) worked hard for his family's wealth and name.  To an extend, Walder too, but he just sits there being elderly and doing little and relying on marriages...  They are both cunning men, as is Tyrion and hell Petyr but Walder is the least cunning of them all. Maybe senility has set in  or he was never more than average intelligence to begin with when competing with super brains lol... not sure but whenever any character in this series gives into their "emotions" and "shortcomings" it goes bad for them.  

There was a political balance to be achieved for Walder and he had to make "a bet" sure probably he was able to win Tywin over but not easily... however, my personal view is that he "enjoyed" the Red Wedding in the same way that Tywin enoyed "the Rains of Castamere."   Even very sober political characters let their psychological shortcomings get the better or them.

As for what he did, lol, of course it was horrible but I loved Tywin's reasoning (indeed is probably preferable to kill a dozen men at dinner than 1000 in battle).  I consider George pretty much an "agent provocateur" and he has it right lol and to ask us readers to think on that...  Protagoras made many interesting comments earlier and despite my history with him on just not agreeing lol I have to say that the violation of "guest rights" was bound to come and bite Walder.  Do I put principle before life???  Nope.  Never.  However, Tyrion, say, would have known straight away as the PR he is that this was a bad... move...  Tywin would not have listen because as traumatized as Tyrion is for being a dwarf, Tywin is traumatised by a weak father...

Part of the trouble with both Tywin and Walder is that they feel too high and mighty to take advice from anyone though.  They want absolute control and refuse to "team work" .

Did Walder had a choice?  I guess yes but not one I would like to make because it was down to betting on a horse to be honest IMHO!

 

 

 

 

 

[marsyao]

8 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

No, they never married. It was a vague engagement that was soon after broken. Again, I would refer you to the second and third points I made. He didn't give "special punishment" to the Tyrells or Westerlings. He rewarded them for coming to his side. Had Walder Frey just dipped his banners and called it a day, Tywin would've likely let him. Heck, his sister was married to Walder Frey's second son. The Red Wedding was all Walder Frey's idea, an orgy of revenge for a lifetime of slights against him. Tywin just let it happen, since it benefited him without any direct tarnish to his name. It wasn't a required price.

frist of all it is not a vague engagement, it was a formal marriage proposal,  the reason it failed was because Tywin sabotaged it. Tyrells was different, House Tyrells was not defeated before they went over to Tywin, Tyrells and noble houses of Reach and Stormland under Tyrells were very powerful, and Tywin needs their help to win the war, so of course Tywin would not punish them. on the other hand Westerlings were Tywin's pwans, Tywin used them the break up Robb's marriage arraignment with Freys and made him unpopular with Riverland Lords, so why Tywin wanted to punish them for doing his biding ? Freys was a different story, they can not just raid down their weapon and expect a pardon, they needed to do more, which means they would have to turn their weapon against Robb, none of other northern or riverland lords were asked to do that before receiving pardon

I never say red wedding was Tywin's idea, of course it was Walder Frey's doing, Tywin only asked him to kill Robb, he would not be interested how Freys to do it.

[marsyao]

9 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

And yet we do not see any such behavior from Tywin in his treatment of the Tyrells, a house whose rebellion cannot be attributed to simply following their liege lord since House Tyrell is one of the Great Houses and therefore answers directly to the crown. What "extra price" were they required to pay before being rewarded? None whatsoever.

Tyrells was not defeated, they were still powerful, Tywin needs Tyrells and their allies to win the war, on the other hand Robb was at the verge of of defeat,  so huge difference here. You only ask extra price from an ememy facing defeat, not from your junior partner

[Lord Wraith]

8 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes Yes he did:

We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding?

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

I always figured that this was simply Roose being a smart and practical Lord. I mean marrying into the same House as your King was going to makes sense. Probably angling for some seat on a possible Small Council in the future. Much like Manderely trying to make himself unofficial Master of Coin and Ships.

We have no idea how the King's in the North ruled before the Starks or if they even had a small council but ambitious Lords would certainly be looking towards this possibility. Roose always played the angles.

Walder is simply trying to get all his kids married like a good father should. Then Roose fleeces him quite well.

[devilish]

12 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Walder also got Riverrun, Darry and various marriages. He would have gotten less than that if he had simply switched sides, but he still would have been rewarded. Because that's how you get people to switch sides.

Let's say that Walder won't commit a Red Wedding type event. What are his options? If he sticks with Robb, Tywin now has to march an army into the Riverlands and lay siege to the Twins, which would take years. Or, he has to storm it and lose thousands of men, probably tens of thousands. A lot can change in a couple of years (say, the arrival of a supposed Targaryen, the death of Joffrey/Lysa/Tywin/Kevan/Balon etc.). Are you telling me that Tywin is so malicious that he would rather do this, leaving his army in the Riverlands during the winter (to besiege the Twins, Riverrun, the Blackwoods, the Brackens, Seagard etc. etc.), than simply accepting Walder back with no punishment or even a reward?

Riverrun was given to Emmon Frey whose married to a Lannister. Darry was given to Lancel Lannister. None of them were involved in the red wedding or are under direct control of Walder. Roose got the warden of the North. He was also given Winterfell. All under his name.  

Regarding your second point

a- Many Riverland Lords would have bent the knee at that point. The siege at the twins would be ideal place to show their loyalty to the crown. I have a feeling that they won't need alot of convincing to do so

b- If the Lannisters cared about smallfolk then they wouldn't have ordered Loras to storm Dragonstone. 

c- Once an army surrounds the twins, I fancy a coup d'etat from the Freys towards their father. Most won't inherit the twins in the first place and considering the circumstances, they rather escape this with their own life then die at Walder's side. May I also remind you that when Brynden Tully hold resistance at Riverrun he wasn't given the chance to bend the knee in exchange of the Tullys keeping the ancestral home. Why would Tywin offer a better deal to Walder? The Tullys were defending their land from an aggressor. Walder wasn't attacked and his opportunistic nature costed Tywin a defeat in battle, Edmure (who was taken hostage), the Riverlands and his boy's sword's arm. Being so strategically located it would be better of for the crown to get rid of that snake and appoint somebody whose loyal to the crown.

[Praetor Xyn]

It's like you're being a comtrarian for the sake of it. Textual evidence and SSM both say Walder motivations were because of his wounded pride, then there's Tywin's treatment of everyone else that's totally inconsistent with your narrative, his quote to Joffrey about bending the knee, etc.

[WSmith84]

12 hours ago, devilish said:

Riverrun was given to Emmon Frey whose married to a Lannister. Darry was given to Lancel Lannister. None of them were involved in the red wedding or are under direct control of Walder. Roose got the warden of the North. He was also given Winterfell. All under his name. 

The Freys got Riverrun. The Frey-Lannisters have the name Frey, not Lannister (check their children). Darry was given to Lancel and Gatehouse Ami (unknown what name the children would have, but since Ami was chosen for her Darry heritage it would likely be her name). Roose got Winterfell, along with a fake Stark, in the full knowledge that Tywin had a real Stark married to his own son. I think Frey got the better deal, to be honest.

12 hours ago, devilish said:

Regarding your second point

a- Many Riverland Lords would have bent the knee at that point. The siege at the twins would be ideal place to show their loyalty to the crown. I have a feeling that they won't need alot of convincing to do so

Right, like all the Riverlords that were happy to bend the knee post-Red Wedding? Oh right, many refused, or did so due to hostages. If they didn't surrender then, why would they when they still had armies?

12 hours ago, devilish said:

b- If the Lannisters cared about smallfolk then they wouldn't have ordered Loras to storm Dragonstone.

Cersei ordered Loras to storm Dragonstone. Cersei, I think we can all agree, is a fool. Tywin is not. And it has nothing to do with caring about smallfolk. No competent commander wants to waste his own soldiers. A several-year long siege of the Twins would be a huge drain of time, manpower and resources for the Lannisters and, perhaps most significantly, it would drag the war on for a long time. That gives hope to other pretenders (Stannis, for instance). And we know Tywin is not convinced that Stannis is finished.

12 hours ago, devilish said:

c- Once an army surrounds the twins, I fancy a coup d'etat from the Freys towards their father. Most won't inherit the twins in the first place and considering the circumstances, they rather escape this with their own life then die at Walder's side. May I also remind you that when Brynden Tully hold resistance at Riverrun he wasn't given the chance to bend the knee in exchange of the Tullys keeping the ancestral home. Why would Tywin offer a better deal to Walder? The Tullys were defending their land from an aggressor. Walder wasn't attacked and his opportunistic nature costed Tywin a defeat in battle, Edmure (who was taken hostage), the Riverlands and his boy's sword's arm. Being so strategically located it would be better of for the crown to get rid of that snake and appoint somebody whose loyal to the crown.

So they're going to kill Walder, then somehow slip past the siege lines and flee... where? Bryned Tully wasn't offered Riverrun because 1) it was already promised to the Freys (Emmon had a paper and everything) 2) the Lannisters had already won the war at this point; there was no need to be lenient towards one of the enemy leaders (decidedly not the case at the time of the RW). Tywin had need of the Freys at the time of their betrayal; the war was still going and threatening to go on for a long time. There's no way Tywin would turn down Walder's offer of an impregnable castle, 4000 men, a strategic crossing point and a chance to demonstrate to doubters in Robb's camp that anyone who crosses sides will be treated fairly and rewarded.

I don't even know why we're still discussing it; we have a quote from GRRM, on this page, saying that Walder would have extracted himself from the alliance anyway and that the RW was personal.