red snow

Foxy Mutant movies - general discussion of X-men movies

64 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, mormont said:

Wolverine is one character you definitely don't need for the Dark Phoenix saga. Cyclops is the character you need.

If you have to pick then of course it's Cyclops but the orginal story did benefit a lot from the love triangle. It added to the instability of the Phoenix and it made for some powerful scenes in the sense that Cyclops was ultimately the most supportive and capable. The contrast between how the two dealt with the grief was also well handled. But it's more of a TV story than a film so maybe it needs to be axed.

I'm also all for the Cyclops love. I'd actually like to see him rise to being the figurehead of the mutant movement as he was in the comics over the last decade (pretty much the only positive thing from the x-men comics in that time) but without the weird "trying to make him evil while inadvertently making him more popular" mis-steps.

9 hours ago, The BlackBear said:

I don;t want any more Wolverine for a while. The films can't focus on the whole cast the way the comics do, and Wolverine has hogged the screen in every film he's been in. I'd like a decent Cyclops before him again, Rogue, Gambit, Kitty, I'd like to see all these guys properly done justice over Wolverine.

Having just watched "logan" last night I think it would be a disservice to that film and the character to have him appear for the next few movies. Because they aren't going to top that in an ensemble cast. Although I was thinking during the film about the recasting as if it is a momentous thing and realised that all the other X-men have been recast now and I'm not sure Wolverine is much more iconic than Magneto and Professor X. I just wish Ian Mckellan had had the same opportunity for as good a send off as Stewart and Jackman just got. Mckellan was underused in DOFP and well, Last stand was what it was. I think Fassbender has actually been given more interesting things to do overall.

I'm all for them shifting the focus onto other characters although many of the ones you've listed work best in a team. That isn't a problem unless they want to make solo films. There's room for a Gambit solo story I guess but probably just one.

regarding Logan and future films

I'd really like to see more of X-23 but I'm not sure how they get around the issue of she's 11 in 2029. Unless Cable or Bishop bring her back into the main franchise via an X-force film it seems she's stuck there. Ideally I'd like them to stick with the actress as well - give her a few years to age.

The Logan timeline is pretty depressing because it suggested that a virus killed virtually all the mutants (the rest hunted down) around 2004. Which means the new timeline created by DOFP actually failed earlier than the one that resulted in DOFP. Harsh.

I also have no idea where Deadpool fits in all of this. I think it's easiest to just take "logan" as its own thing.

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29 minutes ago, red snow said:

If you have to pick then of course it's Cyclops but the orginal story did benefit a lot from the love triangle.

I don't agree. Wolverine and Jean isn't a pairing that's ever worked for me, for one thing. And IMO the original films suffered greatly from the 'love triangle', largely because it wasn't really a triangle, it was a Jean/Logan romance with an inconvenient Cyclops-shaped bump in the road. Scott got overshadowed by Wolverine right off the bat. He never got a chance to develop as a character as a result. As evidence, look at the way he was killed off unceremoniously in the early part of Last Stand. The film-makers just wanted to get him out of the way so they could give Logan his role in the Dark Phoenix story.

And as noted, any attempt to re-do the Dark Phoenix saga has a lot of heavy lifting to do. It doesn't have time for a love triangle. It needs that time to make you feel for the Scott/Jean romance.

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56 minutes ago, mormont said:

I don't agree. Wolverine and Jean isn't a pairing that's ever worked for me, for one thing. And IMO the original films suffered greatly from the 'love triangle', largely because it wasn't really a triangle, it was a Jean/Logan romance with an inconvenient Cyclops-shaped bump in the road. Scott got overshadowed by Wolverine right off the bat. He never got a chance to develop as a character as a result. As evidence, look at the way he was killed off unceremoniously in the early part of Last Stand. The film-makers just wanted to get him out of the way so they could give Logan his role in the Dark Phoenix story.

And as noted, any attempt to re-do the Dark Phoenix saga has a lot of heavy lifting to do. It doesn't have time for a love triangle. It needs that time to make you feel for the Scott/Jean romance.

I think that's more of a problem with the films being overly dependent on Wolverine and not having a handle on Cyclops - I mean they made him the uncool square guy. He's a boyscout but he's not sad. That wasn't the case in the comics (at the time) and as I said the attraction between her and Logan was part of the path to dark phoenix. Although that could be skipped with the hellfire club guy creating a romantic illusion for her. although that kind of story would be a lot more icky on screen.

Ultimately it has to be an adaptation though and I can see how getting rid of the love triangle saves a lot of time. Although my concern then might be the temptation to "fridge" someone close to Jean in order to turn her insane.

As for the relationship between Jean and Logan never working - I agree. Although that's when it did work when Jean was never interested and Logan knew it was a lost cause but was attracted to her anyhow. It fit with the samurai/knight side of the character. Although I admit it was very rarely that the writers handled it that way.

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Posted (edited)

On 07/03/2017 at 6:10 AM, red snow said:

If you have to pick then of course it's Cyclops but the orginal story did benefit a lot from the love triangle. It added to the instability of the Phoenix and it made for some powerful scenes in the sense that Cyclops was ultimately the most supportive and capable. .

  Reveal hidden contents

I'd really like to see more of X-23 but I'm not sure how they get around the issue of she's 11 in 2029. Unless Cable or Bishop bring her back into the main franchise via an X-force film it seems she's stuck there. Ideally I'd like them to stick with the actress as well - give her a few years to age.

The Logan timeline is pretty depressing because it suggested that a virus killed virtually all the mutants (the rest hunted down) around 2004. Which means the new timeline created by DOFP actually failed earlier than the one that resulted in DOFP. Harsh.

I also have no idea where Deadpool fits in all of this. I think it's easiest to just take "logan" as its own thing.

 

THERE WAS NO LOVE TRIANGLE between Logan, Jean and Scott in DPS. Absolutely nothing. As far as I remember, Jean and Logan barely even had two lines of dialogue between them. Jean barely even noticed Logan, it was just another teammate at the time. Logan loved her, but in silence (and that only revealed in a throwaway line in DPS).

The "love triangle" was retconned because the X-men writer, Chris Claremont, was angry at this editor that Jean Grey was brought back to life and Cyclops' marriage to Madeline Pryor was ended, so he decided to take out on Cyclops instead, first by retconning Logan pursuing Jean Grey from the start and she barely resisting (despite no evidence of that in the comics), and eventually, if he had his way would lead to the two of them having an affair and Jean leaving Scott

Cyclops and Jean actually had a nice spark in Apocalypse, but yeah, I agree they need to be developed more. It would be a mistake to do it right in the next film.

A character that is not REALLY necessary but could be used it's Emma Frost- it's a shame she was wasted in another period fetching Sebastian Shaw ice.

Edited by Winterfell is Burning

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14 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

THERE WAS NO LOVE TRIANGLE between Logan, Jean and Scott in DPS. Absolutely nothing. As far as I remember, Jean and Logan barely even had two lines of dialogue between them. Jean barely even noticed Logan, it was just another teammate at the time. Logan loved her, but in silence (and that only revealed in a throwaway line in DPS).

The "love triangle" was retconned because the X-men writer, Chris Claremont, was angry at this editor that Jean Grey was brought back to life and Cyclops' marriage to Madeline Pryor was ended, so he decided to take out on Cyclops instead, first by retconning Logan pursuing Jean Grey from the start and she barely resisting (despite no evidence of that in the comics), and eventually, if he had his way would lead to the two of them having an affair and Jean leaving Scott

Cyclops and Jean actually had a nice spark in Apocalypse, but yeah, I agree they need to be developed more. It would be a mistake to do it right in the next film.

A character that is not REALLY necessary but could be used it's Emma Frost- it's a shame she was wasted in another period fetching Sebastian Shaw ice.

That's ... not how it happened at all. The comic "love triangle" was mostly Logan hitting on Jean, with her feeling some attraction, but little else. Madeline Pryor was way later, by which time Logan was already in love with Mariko. Jean came back to life after Scott married Madeline.

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Off the top of my head, I recall that the idea that Wolvie was attracted to Jean is long-standing but the idea that it was reciprocated originates in the backup to 'Classic X-Men' issue 1. (Those backup stories were untold-story stuff that supplemented the classic stories, so they tended to be used to retcon exactly this sort of stuff.) That issue came out in 1986 - around the same time X-Factor launched and the issue of Fantastic Four where Jean is found alive was published. So WiB may be right on this one.

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34 minutes ago, mormont said:

Off the top of my head, I recall that the idea that Wolvie was attracted to Jean is long-standing but the idea that it was reciprocated originates in the backup to 'Classic X-Men' issue 1. (Those backup stories were untold-story stuff that supplemented the classic stories, so they tended to be used to retcon exactly this sort of stuff.) That issue came out in 1986 - around the same time X-Factor launched and the issue of Fantastic Four where Jean is found alive was published. So WiB may be right on this one.

Yes, that's right. Also keep in mind that Jean was not in the book for the majority of the issues before DPS, so there wasn't even time for a love triangle to happen.

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Maybe I should've pin pointed my objection (mainly the bolded part):

The "love triangle" was retconned because the X-men writer, Chris Claremont, was angry at this editor that Jean Grey was brought back to life and Cyclops' marriage to Madeline Pryor was ended, so he decided to take out on Cyclops instead, first by retconning Logan pursuing Jean Grey from the start and she barely resisting (despite no evidence of that in the comics), and eventually, if he had his way would lead to the two of them having an affair and Jean leaving Scott

This is the part I have no recollection of, after reading X Men religiously from 1986 -1996 (and collecting back issues to catch up from X Men Giant X Men 1, #94 and up). Which "death" of Jean are you talking about? When Phoenix replaced her body in the shuttle (#100-101) or when Dark Phoenix sacrificed herself? The bolded part plus the Pryor reference (which was years later?) is what's throwing me off.

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This refers when Jean was found in the cocoon and discovered to be alive by the FF and Avengers (see my post). X-Factor was about to be launched. Marvel had been going to have Dazzler (yes, really) as a substitute for Jean in the original five. But then Kurt Busiek, more or less as an intellectual exercise, came up with the cocoon idea - where Jean hadn't died and been reborn in 100-101 but had her place taken by the Phoenix instead - as a potential way Jean could be brought back after the Dark Phoenix saga. John Byrne heard about it, liked it, and suggested it to Jim Shooter, who approved it: and that's why Jean was discovered in a FF comic by the FF and the Avengers instead of by the X-Men.

I can believe Claremont was annoyed as a, Shooter was the one who had ordered him to kill Jean in the first place, b, he wasn't all that happy about there being an X-book not written by him anyway, and c, at this time he and Byrne weren't getting along. I don't know if the Wolverine-Jean-Cyclops love triangle was his way of getting revenge, though the timeline fits.

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Mind you, Claremont had every right to be angry. A stupid move by Marvel. It's just his reaction was lame.

 

 

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What's immediately missing here are interesting mutant powers.

Why is that so hard to do? It's all very similar and not distinctive in the way it looks.

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22 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

What's immediately missing here are interesting mutant powers.

Why is that so hard to do? It's all very similar and not distinctive in the way it looks.

Yeah all the mutant power just looked super boring. Just the same vague mental powers.

And they're gonna do Lorna Dane and not give her green hair? Lame!

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It has potential. I guess we'll see other powers but I guess they all have to be manageable on a TV budget. What I'd really like to see are more mutants where it's simply not an option to hide in plain sight but that requires make-up and prosthetics.

The only downside was the "heroes" vibe. Dad who tracks down mutants only to discover his daughter is one of them. May as well have given him horn rimmed glasses. I guess Amy Acker might be a mutant as well if both the kids are?

I liked the mention of the X-men and the Brotherhood as it plants it firmly within whatever continuity the x-franchise has (probably best to forget the elements that "Logan" introduced). Legion is great but I still don't even know what decade it's set in or if it's a different reality entirely. I guess having both groups off the radar helps explain them not being in the show.

Spider sentinels seem ok, too.

 

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4 hours ago, GallowKnight said:

And they're gonna do Lorna Dane and not give her green hair? Lame!

Maybe she'll go swimming in a pool with too much chlorine? :)

 

(I was very blond as a kid and my hair would turn light green when I swam in pools who overdid the chlorine).

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3 hours ago, red snow said:

The only downside was the "heroes" vibe. Dad who tracks down mutants only to discover his daughter is one of them. May as well have given him horn rimmed glasses. I guess Amy Acker might be a mutant as well if both the kids are?

:agree:

The girl even looks quite a bit like Hayden Panettiere.  I don't know if I can watch that again.  I'll probably record a few episodes and see what the consensus is before I try it.

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4 hours ago, RedEyedGhost said:

:agree:

The girl even looks quite a bit like Hayden Panettiere.  I don't know if I can watch that again.  I'll probably record a few episodes and see what the consensus is before I try it.

She does a bit. It's also always cause for concern if something reminds us of heroes. Even if i liked that show at first I don't want the possibility of a one season show.

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On 3/7/2017 at 1:10 AM, red snow said:

If you have to pick then of course it's Cyclops but the orginal story did benefit a lot from the love triangle. It added to the instability of the Phoenix and it made for some powerful scenes in the sense that Cyclops was ultimately the most supportive and capable. The contrast between how the two dealt with the grief was also well handled. But it's more of a TV story than a film so maybe it needs to be axed.

 You actually had a love square in the comic, If you count Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind) of the Hellfire Club.

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Posted (edited)

On 3/9/2017 at 5:33 PM, Winterfell is Burning said:

THERE WAS NO LOVE TRIANGLE between Logan, Jean and Scott in DPS. Absolutely nothing. As far as I remember, Jean and Logan barely even had two lines of dialogue between them. Jean barely even noticed Logan, it was just another teammate at the time. Logan loved her, but in silence (and that only revealed in a throwaway line in DPS).

I think that's mostly right, but it was a little more pervasive than you're allowing in that I think it was the main source of tension between Cyke and Wolvie in that run of the book. Logan may have been suffering in silence, but Scott knew how he felt on some level, and Logan was envious/jealous of him. This would often play out with them competing with one another, with Logan being insubordinate (as Scott was the Team Leader) and even led to the occasional physical conflict. It may not have ever been fully realized, but it was a love triangle of sorts. 

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane

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