Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 @Triskan, but the average Joe and basically everyone who's Inrithi doesn't believe everyone to be damned. Only we as readers know this, and a handful of character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 55 minutes ago, Triskan said: But do they not know that damnation is real as fuck? The Nonmen certainly know. Are they just more educated? That is to ask is the typical Inirithi kind of like the typical modern day American that's kind of religious but not utterly terrified of Hellfire but then it turns out that some Mandati and SS and Nonmen in their ivory towers are the only ones privy to the knowledge that the Hellfire is quite real? Im very sure that they know it's real, sure. But, that basically everyone is damned? I doubt it. Take Proyas as an example. He needs to be raped by his savior just to get the point across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 18 minutes ago, Triskan said: But I'm not saying that everyone is damned or that everyone thinks that everyone is damned. I'm saying that damnation is real, Earwan society acknowledges that damnation is real, that there are ways to avoid damnation, and therefor avoiding damnation should be an obsessions of all Earwans. Ok. But, to what extent to they believe damnation to be. We know that nearly everyone is damned. Proyas, believes or rather believed the God of Gods to be benevolent. I assume they believe that by following the tenets of their religion will keep them free of damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Triskan said: I'm not so sure that statement about Proyas is true. In TGO he asks Kellhus of the God of Gods "Then why damn us!?" But, is that after Kellhus begins to "reveal" the nature of the God? I cant remember. You may well be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 “So the God—?” “Wants nothing … Loves nothing.” Here Proyas is learning of the Gods nature through Kellhus. “The God doesn’t care!” “The God is beyond care.” Then, his conclusion is such. More revelation. “So then why does He demand so much of us?” Proyas blurted. “Why entangle us with judgments? Why damn us!” “Why is wheat sewn and harvested?” Proyas blinked. “Wheat?” He squinted as though ancient. “Wha-what are you saying?” “That our damnation is the Gods’ harvest.” Then Kellhus explains that the God seeks damnation, or rather I believe Kellhus is referring to the 100, just my opinion. “What? What?” “Men and all their generations—” “No!” “—all their aspirations—” The Exalt-General bolted to his feet, flung his bowl across the chamber. “Enough!” No flesh could be sundered from its heart and survive. All of his empire was doomed—was disposable. Kellhus had known this and he had prepared. No … It was the hazard of the converse that had eluded him … “The World is a granary, Proyas … The fact that his heart would also crash into ruin. “And we are the bread.” So, from this exchange, to me, is seems quite clear that Proyas never knew the level that damnation truly is on Earwa. This is Kellhus's revelation to Proyas. This is what he must learn to be what Kellhus needs him to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 17 hours ago, Happy Ent said: Look away, look away Look away, look away Why blow minds when you can rot souls every day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 10 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said: Do you think that was what Inrilatas was going for by heaping damnation upon himself? A leg up on the food-chain in Hell? Gunning for Ajokli's job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Exactly. The actual existence of Damnation is precisely as how people actually thought things would be in Ye Olden Tymes, though the delusion is mostly that they didn't think they'd be going to it. That's sort of one of the central basis points of the series - to create a world where things literally were as people thought they were, and show how much it sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: Exactly. The actual existence of Damnation is precisely as how people actually thought things would be in Ye Olden Tymes, though the delusion is mostly that they didn't think they'd be going to it. That's sort of one of the central basis points of the series - to create a world where things literally were as people thought they were, and show how much it sucks. I don't get at all where you guys think everyone believes they're going to be damned. Isn't Saubon enough proof of that? Yea, they know of damnation and are scared of it. But, they all don't believe they're damned, far from it. They believe if they apease the Gods or their ancestors they'll be fine. The know damnation is real, but try their best to avoid it. Proyas is a hugely devout man that turns who turns aside Kellhus to the crucifix, because he believes him a fraud and caused the ire of the God(s). Seriously, we as readers, are the only ones privy to the truth of damnation, and not until book 7 the extent. We get hints and guesses from Ptsama and Moe, and that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: I don't get at all where you guys think everyone believes they're going to be damned. I literally said exactly the opposite. Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: , and not until book 7 the extent. We get hints and guesses from Ptsama and Moe, and that's about it. Didn't realize that you had been one of the lucky ones who had read TUC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Sorry, book 6, I only wish. And, sorry I misunderstood you. I took it as you was saying they knew they'd be damned. I see you where I mistook you. But, belief in the books, I believe, are still the same as they are today. My point was that 99% of Earwa believe if they live the right way they'll be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said: My point was that 99% of Earwa believe if they live the right way they'll be saved. Probably more than that. As far as I know only the nonmen believe their is no salvation, only oblivion. It's unclear what the Fanim think will happen to them, honestly. And the Zeum specifically go for ancestor worship to be 'saved', which just means hanging out with other wretched souls in the Damnation. But even then, we have specific people who have literally seen the Outside in various ways and still choose to damn themselves, which is both a bit odd and a bit right on the money with respect to human behavior. And the overriding conclusion from this is that damnation is obviously something that is desirous by the creators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gronzag Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 I thought that Moenghus didn't believe in damnation, and that Kellhus killed him because he feared that once he realizes it's real, and how screwed he is after death, he will side with the Consult in attempt to save his own soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Just now, Gronzag said: I thought that Moenghus didn't believe in damnation, and that Kellhus killed him because he feared that once he realizes it's real, and how screwed he is after death, he will side with the Consult in attempt to save his own soul. That's certainly what Moe said, and what Kellhus thinks (note Kellhus didn't kill Moe, he just stabbed him; he was alive after that). Given Meppa's knowledge of the afterlife and what Kellhus has come to learn it's hard to believe that Moe would be so blind. Um, well, disillusioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Only just got round to reading the AMA, but Bakkeroos as a name for the fanbase (from Chuck Tingle via Mark Lawrence) seems highly legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: That's certainly what Moe said, and what Kellhus thinks (note Kellhus didn't kill Moe, he just stabbed him; he was alive after that). Just interested why you noted this. I have a feeling that whoever Kellhus sees in his dream may be Moe or Koringhus. I've always thought Moe might've had a plan there in Kyudea with the chorae and all that. It's interesting to note that when described, the man in the dream looks like Kellhus sans halos. And, I every description we get of Moe, him and Kellhus are nearly identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 My suspicion is that Moe's views and the notion that Moe was just leading Kellhus on is just wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madness Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Werthead said: Only just got round to reading the AMA, but Bakkeroos as a name for the fanbase (from Chuck Tingle via Mark Lawrence) seems highly legit. I thought it kind of endearing. Wert, with US/UK TUC release near simultaneous apparently, any word on your receiving an ARC to review? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Wasn't this book Evil is a Matter of Perspective supposed to come out in April? I can't find a specific date for some reason. Has anyone read it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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