.H.

Bakker XLVII: Eär-War - A Nomen of Onomatopoeic Omen

427 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, lokisnow said:

If suffering makes holy, and humans worship suffering then...

Is aurang offering salvation?

are chorae a scourge crafted to induce suffering on the sorcerer caste and thus offer salvation eventually? a cure for damnation?

Well, yes, because in a manner of speaking, the opposite of damnation is salvation.

Recall what Shaeönanra says in Akka's dream of Nau-Cayûti:

Quote

They ascended what Siqu called the Abskinis, the Groundless Grave … “The Iyiskû …”

They made this …”

To be their …”

Sssshurrogate world …”

The vast well that plumbed Golgotterath’s Upright Horn.

Now … now …”

It belongs to me …”

They climbed to the world’s most wicked summit, where none but the dead and the damned descended.

The very …”

Stronghold …”

Of ssssalvation!

It's always been the case that the Inchoroi have something of a noble aim, but their means are just the worst.

10 hours ago, unJon said:

@.H. It occurs to me that sending Malowebi to Zeum on an assignation mission works equally well as a means to secure the future of the Monmen empire. He is cutting off the head of its biggest threat. So it think we are left in an amiguous situation still. 

That's true, but there were no armies lining up to conquer the Empire, really.  The threat level was seemingly small, by my estimation.  Yet, it could be a part of it.  I still feel it has more to do with an ending of the old ways, starting with the old dynasty, hence why Malowebi is sent to "end the line of Nganka’kull" not ruin Zëum in it's entirety.  But yeah, still ambiguous.  Porque no los dos, perhaps?

10 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Great point. I wonder if all the suffering and loss the GO endures will make them useless to the Gods because they are holy? 

I guess maybe it depends on when they die?  Pre-whatever-the-hell Kellhus is doing, or post.  I'm pretty sure those dying along the way are damned.  But so is almost everyone on Eärwa.

8 hours ago, unJon said:

I'm not sure how much Saubon suffered. He seemed to be thriving and in his element in TGO. Pride until the end. Following Kel was right for him because Kel was the strongest. 

He suffered, in a vague physical way, but he had no loss.  In fact, he suffered in the name of winning.  I think that's why he'd still be damned.

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Yeah, I think that's another key. Suffering isn't necessarily holy; surrender is supposed to be, and not surrender of things or value, surrender of self. Psatma surrenders and considers it holy, but she still sees herself as sitting next to Yatwer, she sees her self, and sees others like Meppa being treated like playthings.

It is that viewpoint - that other people are different from yourself, that you are separate, unique, independent - that is the part that leads to damnation. It is only through embracing that everyone is everything that you can be saved through the Zero-God. 

But suffering by itself for the sake of suffering? Nope.

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10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, I think that's another key. Suffering isn't necessarily holy; surrender is supposed to be, and not surrender of things or value, surrender of self. Psatma surrenders and considers it holy, but she still sees herself as sitting next to Yatwer, she sees her self, and sees others like Meppa being treated like playthings.

It is that viewpoint - that other people are different from yourself, that you are separate, unique, independent - that is the part that leads to damnation. It is only through embracing that everyone is everything that you can be saved through the Zero-God. 

But suffering by itself for the sake of suffering? Nope.

It could be then, that loss and suffering can be holy because they reduce?  If we are looking to approach Zero, we must suffer subtraction until we are there.  Interesting parallel in the vein, Koringhus starts with 100 stones, is reduced to 1, then to zero and so joins Zero.  A path of forking branches, reduced to one then to Zero( the path(s) collapsed).

Saubon's suffering elevated him, in stature and prestige, plus in worldly power.  That is not going from one to zero, that is going from one to two, ergo not holy.

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I'd buy it more if Koringus had not passed the stone to his son and had simply, wordlessly leapt.

'everyone is everything' sounds like nihilism.

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37 minutes ago, .H. said:

It could be then, that loss and suffering can be holy because they reduce?  If we are looking to approach Zero, we must suffer subtraction until we are there.  Interesting parallel in the vein, Koringhus starts with 100 stones, is reduced to 1, then to zero and so joins Zero.  A path of forking branches, reduced to one then to Zero( the path(s) collapsed).

I might go a different way - that loss and suffering can be holy because they connect. They allow you to rely on others, to share your pain as their pain, to add more empathy and sympathy and understanding. Compare this to, say, how Psatma gets raped by Fayanal and spits on him - she is not interested in connecting with him, nor he with her; each is using the other for their own self, and each is trapped in their own self viewpoint. 

Though the 100 stones to 1 is an interesting parallel to the Logos is without beginning or end mantra going to nothing. 

 

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1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

I might go a different way - that loss and suffering can be holy because they connect. They allow you to rely on others, to share your pain as their pain, to add more empathy and sympathy and understanding. Compare this to, say, how Psatma gets raped by Fayanal and spits on him - she is not interested in connecting with him, nor he with her; each is using the other for their own self, and each is trapped in their own self viewpoint. 

Though the 100 stones to 1 is an interesting parallel to the Logos is without beginning or end mantra going to nothing. 

 

Yeah, it was just what first popped into my head.  But it would seem that reduction of the self is pretty key, in any case.  Suffering and loss alone can't be the answer, since then all the slaves and such would be holy and I don't think they are.

On the stones, it was, again, another spur of the moment ideas.  Interesting too would be the implication of the whittling down of possible paths for Koringhus to walk, at first a hundred ways things could happen, whittled down to one (go with Akka and Mim), that one then passed on to the crab-handed boy and Koringhus has zero, no where to go: the path collapses.

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I always thought the 100th stone represented Love, the interval Koringhus couldn't deny between him and the boy. So, instead of using it he held on to it. Symbolic like.

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17 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I always thought the 100th stone represented Love, the interval Koringhus couldn't deny between him and the boy. So, instead of using it he held on to it. Symbolic like.

That's as probable as anything else.  Which is to say, I don't know.  It could be just yet another part.

I tend to think it was more representative of some division of himself, not the the sense of aspects, but of threads of his consciousness.  No doubt this is incorrect though.

There is also the idea that the last stone is the Survivor.  It is the last one and so passing it on as he dies, the boy is the last one.  Of course, then he uses it, which begs the question of what happens to him now?

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Yea, I definitely believe that was the rock used to dispatch SS Serwe. So......"what's love go to do, got to do with it, what's love but a singular emotion?". Thought y'all might like a tune to go along with it.

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So I'll be honest. I feel like I love the story of the series.. but i don't think i have the patience, knowledge or understanding to actually understand what the hell is going on and basically start skimming the book because I don't really get what was happening in the last book. Maybe it Is because I sped through the Aspect-Emperor series in less than a month, but I really skimmed the 3rd book. What really helped me understand what was even going on in the series was thanks to Werts multi part breakdown of the back story. I was really getting thrown during the White Luck Warrior, especially with all the nonmen stuff, and as I was reading the great ordeal I felt like i knew even less of what was going on and I honestly just skimmed to get to t the highlights of anything exciting.

 

 

It really got bad in the second half of this book, and to be honest, I don't think I have the energy to go back to try and re read it. So  if someone can just clarify/summarize a few things for me I would be extremely grateful

 

 

1) the survivor kills himself after taking quirri because he realizes that his entire belief structure as dunyain was was wrong?

2) the kid with the survivor was his own kid so he is Kelhus grandson then? and could potentially be the one prophecized?

3) The Great Ordeal was becoming more and more inhuman as they continued to eat the Sranc. Kelhus wanted this to happen so that the Ordeal can experience great loss so that they have something to truly fight for, which is their salvation?

4) The Horde was completely wiped out by the Ordeal, but the Ordeal was abandoned by Kelhus and now is on its own? that was it? 

5) The Sorweel stuff. I honestly have no idea what happened to him after he put the helmet on that was the soul of a nonman. (i really got confused with this storyline in the middle of white luck.. am i right in thinking that Cleric was the nonman king of the Mansion that Serwa, Moenghus and Sorweel were traded to?  From my understanding of this storyline, Sorweel put on the helmet becomes semi possessed, walks down into the depths of the Cave to find the father of one of the only sane Nonmen.. and said father was a huge mythical hero of the big nonman war against the inchoroi so that they can go against the semi erratic leader of the nonmen mansion who had allied himself with the Consult... because the Consult   for revenge against man and salvation (no idea?) and then i have no idea happend after

 

6) Kelmomas kills Theli by getting the assassin to kill her. Somehow the Cisharauam gets injured so the Fanim can't destroy the walls, but then that one lady somehow gets something to happen that gets the walls destroyed and Esemente thinks they're all going to die but then Kelhus shows up and kills the lady, Fanayel, and then spares the Zeum ambassador who was with them for reasons?

 

I think the Akka storyline was by far the easiest one for me to follow.... I think

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, oberonus said:

1) the survivor kills himself after taking quirri because he realizes that his entire belief structure as dunyain was was wrong?

Yes, and he realizes that after being forgiven by Mimara and taking Qirri he is as holy and pure as he can possibly be, so he chooses to end his life before anything else can be done and rejoin with the Zero-God.

5 minutes ago, oberonus said:

2) the kid with the survivor was his own kid so he is Kelhus grandson then? and could potentially be the one prophecized?

Sure.

5 minutes ago, oberonus said:

3) The Great Ordeal was becoming more and more inhuman as they continued to eat the Sranc. Kelhus wanted this to happen so that the Ordeal can experience great loss so that they have something to truly fight for, which is their salvation?

Completely and totally unknown. The jacket says that even Kellhus did not foresee the Sranc effect. It's not clear if he even wants the Ordeal to succeed.

5 minutes ago, oberonus said:

4) The Horde was completely wiped out by the Ordeal, but the Ordeal was abandoned by Kelhus and now is on its own? that was it?

The Horde isn't totally wiped out, but they're pretty hosed. And yeah, the Ordeal is at least, for now, left alone by Kellhus, with Proyas being raped by Kellhus as a means to prepare Proyas to lead the Ordeal.

5 minutes ago, oberonus said:

5) The Sorweel stuff. I honestly have no idea what happened to him after he put the helmet on that was the soul of a nonman. (i really got confused with this storyline in the middle of white luck.. am i right in thinking that Cleric was the nonman king of the Mansion that Serwa, Moenghus and Sorweel were traded to?  From my understanding of this storyline, Sorweel put on the helmet becomes semi possessed, walks down into the depths of the Cave to find the father of one of the only sane Nonmen.. and said father was a huge mythical hero of the big nonman war against the inchoroi so that they can go against the semi erratic leader of the nonmen mansion who had allied himself with the Consult... because the Consult   for revenge against man and salvation (no idea?) and then i have no idea happend after

Cleric was not the nonman king - this was another king, who was in the thrall of the Consult. The last non-erratic sacrifices himself so his father can feel something, and as a result his father remembers who he is and wipes out most of the Nonmen allied with the Consult. We still don't understand why the nonmen ally with the Consult, honestly.

5 minutes ago, oberonus said:

6) Kelmomas kills Theli by getting the assassin to kill her. Somehow the Cisharauam gets injured so the Fanim can't destroy the walls

Meppa the Cishaurim gets injured because Esme takes the chorae that is on her body, throws it near him which disables his shields, and then he gets shot by a couple arrows and almost dies. He's restored by Psatma's healing vagina magic. 

5 minutes ago, oberonus said:

, but then that one lady somehow gets something to happen that gets the walls destroyed and Esemente thinks they're all going to die but then Kelhus shows up and kills the lady, Fanayel, and then spares the Zeum ambassador who was with them for reasons?

This is pretty much right. Kellhus doesn't exactly spare the Zeum ambassador - he takes one of the Ciphrang heads that he has on his belt, does some daimotic magic, and cuts off the Zeum's head and puts the demon head on the body. 

The earthquake happens because reasons. We don't know why. The gods did it, I guess.

5 minutes ago, oberonus said:

I think the Akka storyline was by far the easiest one for me to follow.... I think

There wasn't a ton that happened in it, so yeah. 

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4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yes, and he realizes that after being forgiven by Mimara and taking Qirri he is as holy and pure as he can possibly be, so he chooses to end his life before anything else can be done and rejoin with the Zero-God.

Sure.

Completely and totally unknown. The jacket says that even Kellhus did not foresee the Sranc effect. It's not clear if he even wants the Ordeal to succeed.

The Horde isn't totally wiped out, but they're pretty hosed. And yeah, the Ordeal is at least, for now, left alone by Kellhus, with Proyas being raped by Kellhus as a means to prepare Proyas to lead the Ordeal.

Cleric was not the nonman king - this was another king, who was in the thrall of the Consult. The last non-erratic sacrifices himself so his father can feel something, and as a result his father remembers who he is and wipes out most of the Nonmen allied with the Consult. We still don't understand why the nonmen ally with the Consult, honestly.

Meppa the Cishaurim gets injured because Esme takes the chorae that is on her body, throws it near him which disables his shields, and then he gets shot by a couple arrows and almost dies. He's restored by Psatma's healing vagina magic. 

This is pretty much right. Kellhus doesn't exactly spare the Zeum ambassador - he takes one of the Ciphrang heads that he has on his belt, does some daimotic magic, and cuts off the Zeum's head and puts the demon head on the body. 

The earthquake happens because reasons. We don't know why. The gods did it, I guess.

There wasn't a ton that happened in it, so yeah. 

Maybe he wants the GO to succeed in another goal, we still don't know his plan and I don't buy that Kellhus is anything holy, the whole GO thing is Kellhus' propaganda.Also why the hell was he referred to as " the place " ? What do you think ?

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6 hours ago, oberonus said:

5) The Sorweel stuff. I honestly have no idea what happened to him after he put the helmet on that was the soul of a nonman. (i really got confused with this storyline in the middle of white luck.. am i right in thinking that Cleric was the nonman king of the Mansion that Serwa, Moenghus and Sorweel were traded to?  From my understanding of this storyline, Sorweel put on the helmet becomes semi possessed, walks down into the depths of the Cave to find the father of one of the only sane Nonmen.. and said father was a huge mythical hero of the big nonman war against the inchoroi so that they can go against the semi erratic leader of the nonmen mansion who had allied himself with the Consult... because the Consult   for revenge against man and salvation (no idea?) and then i have no idea happend after

5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Cleric was not the nonman king - this was another king, who was in the thrall of the Consult. The last non-erratic sacrifices himself so his father can feel something, and as a result his father remembers who he is and wipes out most of the Nonmen allied with the Consult. We still don't understand why the nonmen ally with the Consult, honestly.

Just a clarification, because the initial question was somewhat unclear, but Cleric was the king of Ishterebinth, which is the mansion that Serwa, Moe and Sorweel are sent to.  Cleric's "real name" is Nil'Giccas and he was the king of Ishterebinth from the time of the Inchoroi first coming, until a much more recent time, probably something in the neighborhood of 20-30 years.  He basically abdicated the throne, leaving because the Dolour (the state of forgetting that leads Nonmen to erraticism) forced him to seek trauma, depravity, and atrocities, because for some reason these make the Nonmen feel whole again.  So, the king we end up seeing in Ishterebinth there is Nin’ciljiras, not Cleric.

It is plausible to posit that most of the Nonmen who join the Consult, do it because of that same need for atrocity, to finally allow themselves to remember and be "whole" even if for fleeting moments.  I think there is more to it, but as to not confuse you, I think that is a plausible way to look at the crux of it.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, redeagl said:

Maybe he wants the GO to succeed in another goal, we still don't know his plan and I don't buy that Kellhus is anything holy, the whole GO thing is Kellhus' propaganda.Also why the hell was he referred to as " the place " ? What do you think ?

Well, we certainly don't know Kellhus's goals, sure. But, the GO is propaganda? It's actually happening. Thousand upon thousands marching to Golgotterath. I don't see how that's propaganda. And, I don't see how part of his goal isn't to destroy the Consult. If he was joining them, he would have done it long ago and skipped the Ordeal and all that. Aurang showing up is proof they are not aligned, imo. 

What got me confused about the rape of Proyas and him leading the Ordeal. I mean, where else is thereally for Kellhus to go but back to the Ordeal and Golgotterath? Sure, he had to leave for a minute and salvage the Empire, but the fight is in the North. What I'm saying is he's not going to be gone that long is he? It just doesn't mesh in my mind.

ETA: unless it a sort of parallel/homage to Shimeh. Kellhus, Mimara,Akka and Meppa will all sneak into Golgotterath while the Ordeals deals with the Sranc and Nonmen. 

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

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1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

What got me confused about the rape of Proyas and him leading the Ordeal. I mean, where else is thereally for Kellhus to go but back to the Ordeal and Golgotterath? Sure, he had to leave for a minute and salvage the Empire, but the fight is in the North. What I'm saying is he's not going to be gone that long is he? It just doesn't mesh in my mind.

That's part of why my theory is that the Ordeal isn't aimed at actually defeating the Consult.  I mean, we were already told:

Quote

But most importantly, the Aspect-Emperor wished to deny the Consult any easy reckoning of the power he brought against them. For in truth, all the Men of the Ordeal in their countless, shining thousands were little more than a vehicle for the safe conveyance of the Schools.

In WLW.  The men don't matter much, they are all meat-shields.  What will Kellhus return to?  The sorcerers that are there, because they are what matter.  Why?  I don't know, presumably whatever Kellhus plans to do relies upon a heck of a lot of sorcerous power to pull off.  I had a stupid idea once, that Kellhus could probably attempt to literally pick up the Ark and send it off the planet.  Dumb, but probably somewhat effective.

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2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Well, we certainly don't know Kellhus's goals, sure. But, the GO is propaganda? It's actually happening. Thousand upon thousands marching to Golgotterath. I don't see how that's propaganda. And, I don't see how part of his goal isn't to destroy the Consult. If he was joining them, he would have done it long ago and skipped the Ordeal and all that. Aurang showing up is proof they are not aligned, imo. 

What got me confused about the rape of Proyas and him leading the Ordeal. I mean, where else is thereally for Kellhus to go but back to the Ordeal and Golgotterath? Sure, he had to leave for a minute and salvage the Empire, but the fight is in the North. What I'm saying is he's not going to be gone that long is he? It just doesn't mesh in my mind.

ETA: unless it a sort of parallel/homage to Shimeh. Kellhus, Mimara,Akka and Meppa will all sneak into Golgotterath while the Ordeals deals with the Sranc and Nonmen. 

Kellhus won't save the word if he wanted besides 99.999999% he would be damned worse than Cnaiür and the guy will ascend to something by the end of TUC ( TSTSNBN name)  he is certainly no holy guy, only a Dûnyain who have done things far worse than what a normal Dûnyain usually does.Deceive,devices,deceive and then deceive some more until it looks s if it is the Truth.In TWLW Kellhus told Proyas that he had spies in Momemn so he most certainly knew what would happen there, maybe he intended to join the action there a some point ( to finish Meppa,Psatma, WLW or Zeüm maybe? or did he feel terrible about what he did to his family?  won't be the first time he is controlled b passion) and he did condition Proyas for it since TWLW so he knew that he would have to leave them.At that point the Consult haven't unleashed their worst wepons  yet, supposedly The Consult have a HUGE number of Chorae and those Bashrags in Dagliash were a lame thing so I am sure they still have most of it.In Golgotterath there will armies of Ursranc, Chorae Bashrags, Sclyvendi and Quya ( possibly Wracu if they moved their lazy ass) if Kellhus (like Shimeh) had a chat inside Golgotterath and didn't unleash super Metagnosis then the GO is almost certainly doomed t the last man and woman.

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@redeagl, I never have thought or said that Kellhus is truly holy. Though, that's yet to be seen. Mimara will look on him with the eye, and maybe he will be, who knows. Who knows how it all exactly works. I haven't figured it out and certainly have seenough any posts that convince me someone has figured it out.

My point is, that whatever comes about from the GO, is holy. It's says in the text,  that certain names and places become holy after the Ordeal, when we get the narrator chapters or sections. 

Why wouldn't Kellhus save the world? If he defeats the Consult and stops the No-God from being unleashed, he saves humanity, ergo the world. Now, damnation is a different story. I assume it is also his aim to stop damnation, close the Outside. 

Kellhus being holy really doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. It's the results of what happens that is holy.

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4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

@redeagl, I never have thought or said that Kellhus is truly holy. Though, that's yet to be seen. Mimara will look on him with the eye, and maybe he will be, who knows. Who knows how it all exactly works. I haven't figured it out and certainly have seenough any posts that convince me someone has figured it out.

My point is, that whatever comes about from the GO, is holy. It's says in the text,  that certain names and places become holy after the Ordeal, when we get the narrator chapters or sections. 

Why wouldn't Kellhus save the world? If he defeats the Consult and stops the No-God from being unleashed, he saves humanity, ergo the world. Now, damnation is a different story. I assume it is also his aim to stop damnation, close the Outside. 

Kellhus being holy really doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. It's the results of what happens that is holy.

The GO herdsmen becoming holy isn't an indication, you have an army of religious fanatics and  supposedly a living god whose small toe is holy, so it could have became holy a week after the name became viral not after the GO is finished.Also I don't think that Kellhus will destroy the Consult, at least not in the natural sense.To close the Outside what you must do?  144k! Same as what the Consult is trying to achieve.

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4 minutes ago, redeagl said:

The GO herdsmen becoming holy isn't an indication, you have an army of religious fanatics and  supposedly a living god whose small toe is holy, so it could have became holy a week after the name became viral not after the GO is finished.Also I don't think that Kellhus will destroy the Consult, at least not in the natural sense.To close the Outside what you must do?  144k! Same as what the Consult is trying to achieve.

And they speak of places being holy. And it's not said by any character in the book. It's the omnipresence narrator we get every now and then. That's one way to shut the Outside, the other would be to defeat the 100 or the Gods, which I think is far more likely Kellhus's goal. Remember,  in the vision the Voice says that he is trying to drive the God forth and that is who he wars with.

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