.H.

Bakker XLVII: Eär-War - A Nomen of Onomatopoeic Omen

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9 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

There is more than one way to slice a apple @redeagl.....

So true.

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22 minutes ago, unJon said:

My wife actually bought a similar thing for vegetables just last week, :P

On Kellhus, of course he is a false prophet, because the whole point of the Thousandfold Thought is that, like virimsata, it is a lie that makes itself true.

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3 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Why wouldn't Kellhus save the world? If he defeats the Consult and stops the No-God from being unleashed, he saves humanity, ergo the world.

Maybe because as suggested (I think it was by H), he used the Dunyain conditioning to scourge away part of himself, then Serwe scourged away another part and it seems like he's trying to do the same with Esme.

Then maybe the world.

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On February 28, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Kalbear said:

Other counterargument: Yatwer and her followers should be the most holy of everyone - and they are not, per Psatma's notion of her serving at the hand of Yatwer when she dies as an honored guest. Her suffering does not let her escape damnation. 

Sorry for jumping in on tangents, but does this mean we think Nanneferi (sp) is damned? Why so? 

On March 1, 2017 at 6:33 AM, .H. said:

I guess maybe it depends on when they die?  Pre-whatever-the-hell Kellhus is doing, or post.  I'm pretty sure those dying along the way are damned.  But so is almost everyone on Eärwa.

 

This is something that I question - and apologies if it has been covered previously. Does anyone suspect we might be duping ourselves as well as the characters are in assuming everyone is damned? We know Mimara at one point wonders if the whole world is consigned to damnation, and she would know best. But keep in mind it's a moment of despair for her, and if the Eye is infallible, Mimara's understanding of it is not (clearly). Prior to my reread of the series, it struck me as interesting how my perception aligned with this idea of eternal damnation for basically all, only upon my reread to realize that it was nowhere as prevalent as I had thought. It is really only in bits of TWL and largely TGO and The False Sun that I got this impression. As others have said, who do we really know is objectively damned? Mimara only sees a bunch of truly terrible scalpers, a Nonman who committed countless atrocities, Akka, who has done some pretty awful things in addition to be a sorcerer, and the Dunyain, whom we already know their crimes. 

I suppose I am just wondering if this idea that everyone is damned on Earwa isn't simply us being misled intentionally. I think this being the case might make the question of the Apoaclypse/Consult more a questionable one. As is, as horrible as the Consult are, it's still pretty impossible to not side with them when we see that Damnation dwarfs anything they do. There's a more interesting moral argument if Damnation is only reserved for people who sin (such as Akka). In that case, Damnation is still pretty much the worst thing ever and should be stopped, but should mass atrocity as the Consult enacts be justified to spare the damnation of amoral people? If basically everyone is damned, that question is kind of rendered moot.

Some built up thoughts; apologies for rambling. 

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6 hours ago, IllusiveMan said:

This is something that I question - and apologies if it has been covered previously. Does anyone suspect we might be duping ourselves as well as the characters are in assuming everyone is damned? We know Mimara at one point wonders if the whole world is consigned to damnation, and she would know best. But keep in mind it's a moment of despair for her, and if the Eye is infallible, Mimara's understanding of it is not (clearly). Prior to my reread of the series, it struck me as interesting how my perception aligned with this idea of eternal damnation for basically all, only upon my reread to realize that it was nowhere as prevalent as I had thought. It is really only in bits of TWL and largely TGO and The False Sun that I got this impression. As others have said, who do we really know is objectively damned? Mimara only sees a bunch of truly terrible scalpers, a Nonman who committed countless atrocities, Akka, who has done some pretty awful things in addition to be a sorcerer, and the Dunyain, whom we already know their crimes. 

I suppose I am just wondering if this idea that everyone is damned on Earwa isn't simply us being misled intentionally. I think this being the case might make the question of the Apoaclypse/Consult more a questionable one. As is, as horrible as the Consult are, it's still pretty impossible to not side with them when we see that Damnation dwarfs anything they do. There's a more interesting moral argument if Damnation is only reserved for people who sin (such as Akka). In that case, Damnation is still pretty much the worst thing ever and should be stopped, but should mass atrocity as the Consult enacts be justified to spare the damnation of amoral people? If basically everyone is damned, that question is kind of rendered moot.

Some built up thoughts; apologies for rambling.

The board ate my first attempt to reply...

Basically, I think damnation has to be widespread, or else, why would Eärwa be a granary?  That would be like you running a pig farm where the pigs could keep themselves fit and have a good chance to escape.  Why would you systematically allow that?  You want them staying put and fattening up.  Some might escape, sure, but you keep most right where you want them.

I mean, I think we probably do have a distorted view of just how widespread it is, but certainly more people than not are damned, in my mind.  I mean, Bakker did liken Eärwa to hell recently.

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1 hour ago, .H. said:

The board ate my first attempt to reply...

Basically, I think damnation has to be widespread, or else, why would Eärwa be a granary?  That would be like you running a pig farm where the pigs could keep themselves fit and have a good chance to escape.  Why would you systematically allow that?  You want them staying put and fattening up.  Some might escape, sure, but you keep most right where you want them.

Yeah, I definitely agree. And I think I'm likely trying to add in a little hope to such a horrifying concept haha.

I guess it just seems we're given a little bit of conflicting info in this regard. The granary reveal in TGO definitely implies that most if not everyone is Damned. Gods feast on souls, so this led me to wonder why they would ever 'save' anyone or how anyone could be redeemed - it's all bread for the damnation machine.

But we're given a few bits of info that seem to question this. Mimara has seen people that are saved; she describes shining great men and women. She certainly doesn't seem to have the mentality that everyone is Damned until she starts hanging with Akka and the Skin Eaters. She even seems to have a level of surprise every time she see's someone's damnation. We're told, at least in the glossary, that there are angelic Ciphrang and that there are heavens/paradise. Certainly it sounds like Yatwer would look out for her own; at least this is the belief of Nanneferi and it seems in line with what we know of Yatwer 'loving' the downtrodden and all that. There is the part with the slave in TWL I believe where she says he can be saved even working for Fanayal, but only if he reaches for Yatwer upon death. And Mimara offers Galian redemption in the form of repentance, which implies there is some tie between genuine morality and salvation/damnation. Lastly, Bakker himself ties morality into Damnation when he states accumulation of sin is what draws the interests of demons/gods, and that the key to the series is who is saved and who is damned. 

I guess these questions are just made confusing with this TGO granary reveal. I still don't think we know enough about the Outside and the nature of Damnation/salvation to make as many of the assumptions that we might be making. It certainly leads me to wonder what Mimara would see if she saw your normal Earwan with the judging eye (and not barely human scalpers, Dunyain, the most violent of all men, and a sorcerer). 

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This also lets me wonder, if you were your average Earwan citizen, what the best way to avoid Damnation is? Haha. Bakker says the accumulation of sin is what draws the eyes of Gods/demons, so do you just try to live a sin-free life (and what even is that, in Earwa, as the nature of sin seems so arbitrary)? Then after death do you find oblivion or paradise, in this case? 

Do you worship your ancestors like Zeum and hope they cast nets for your soul upon death? This is an interesting little belief that I would love expounded on; does it work? It doesn't seem like it's as useless as the Nonmen method of worshipping the place between Gods which both Aurang and Kellhus disregards, seemingly. 

Or do you just attach yourself to a certain God, like Nanneferi, and hope for the best? This seems like the safest, but that's a pretty relative term considering the God are fickle and arbitrary. Do the Gods actually reward their followers, or are they all just fucked either way? 

How does one hedge their bets in Earwa? 

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28 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

This also lets me wonder, if you were your average Earwan citizen, what the best way to avoid Damnation is? Haha. Bakker says the accumulation of sin is what draws the eyes of Gods/demons, so do you just try to live a sin-free life (and what even is that, in Earwa, as the nature of sin seems so arbitrary)? Then after death do you find oblivion or paradise, in this case? 

Do you worship your ancestors like Zeum and hope they cast nets for your soul upon death? This is an interesting little belief that I would love expounded on; does it work? It doesn't seem like it's as useless as the Nonmen method of worshipping the place between Gods which both Aurang and Kellhus disregards, seemingly. 

Or do you just attach yourself to a certain God, like Nanneferi, and hope for the best? This seems like the safest, but that's a pretty relative term considering the God are fickle and arbitrary. Do the Gods actually reward their followers, or are they all just fucked either way? 

How does one hedge their bets in Earwa? 

Koringhus tells what makes one holy.

And so it was with the Absolute. Surrender. Forfeiture. Loss … At last he understood what made these things holy. Loss was advantage. Blindness was insight, revelation. At last he could see it—the sideways step that gave lie to Logos. Zero. Zero made One.

So think, this is why Mimara sees herself as holy when she glances herself in the pond with the eye open. I'd also say this describes Serwe perfectly, and Kellhus admission to Proyas that Serwe is damned is probably absolute bullshit. She probably is wreathed In  gold and just as holy as they make her in the New Empire. 

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2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Koringhus tells what makes one holy.

 

 

So think, this is why Mimara sees herself as holy when she glances herself in the pond with the eye open. I'd also say this describes Serwe perfectly, and Kellhus admission to Proyas that Serwe is damned is probably absolute bullshit. She probably is wreathed In  gold and just as holy as they make her in the New Empire. 

Does Mimara really fit that bill? Loss, certainly, but surrender doesn't seem to describe her at all. I also wondered about Kellhus's assertion that Serwe why was damnefd. Why would she be (unless everyone is damned)? She commits no sins, save for killing one guy who was going to rape her, and I suppose believing in Kellhus. I wondered what Kellhus's purpose was in telling Pryoas she burned in Hell. 

And while Korhingus definitely seems to have it the most right in regards to the Zero God/joining the Absolute, I was more referring to salvation in terms of the Gods/the Outside - IE, what they view as sin and what they absolve versus what they damn. The whole joining of the Zero God/Absolute seemed to supersede the Gods and the Damnation/general life after Earwa cycle. but that may just be my misunderstanding. There at least seems to be some belief of salvation without joining Zero amongst Earwa's populace, be it living a sin free life, becoming slave to one of the Hundred, or praying for your ancestors to intervene. 

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45 minutes ago, redeagl said:

 

36 minutes ago, unJon said:

I don't get it. 

Yeah... me either.

So the first teaser was that it would reveal how Seswatha's dreams deceived Achamian... Cool.  Need that.

The second is that it will reveal the secret of the Yimaleti Mtns.  Ummm... I'm going to need to check the map, but okay.

The third is that it will reveal the identity of the Lord Torturer's son?  What?  There's a Lord Torturer?  Is it Glokta?

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Looks like Yimaleti is the mountain range just west of Golgotterath. 

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Posted (edited)

My sarcasm detector is off so I will just go with it, Lord Harapior ( not sure of the name)  who "tortured" Serwa ( or rather vice versa)  and supposedly died in the carnage at the end.

Edited by redeagl

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1 hour ago, redeagl said:

My sarcasm detector is off so I will just go with it, Lord Harapior ( not sure of the name)  who "tortured" Serwa ( or rather vice versa)  and supposedly died in the carnage at the end.

Beyond the sarcasm, that was my thinking as well.

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6 hours ago, IllusiveMan said:

Yeah, I definitely agree. And I think I'm likely trying to add in a little hope to such a horrifying concept haha.

I guess it just seems we're given a little bit of conflicting info in this regard. The granary reveal in TGO definitely implies that most if not everyone is Damned. Gods feast on souls, so this led me to wonder why they would ever 'save' anyone or how anyone could be redeemed - it's all bread for the damnation machine.

But we're given a few bits of info that seem to question this. Mimara has seen people that are saved; she describes shining great men and women. She certainly doesn't seem to have the mentality that everyone is Damned until she starts hanging with Akka and the Skin Eaters. She even seems to have a level of surprise every time she see's someone's damnation. We're told, at least in the glossary, that there are angelic Ciphrang and that there are heavens/paradise. Certainly it sounds like Yatwer would look out for her own; at least this is the belief of Nanneferi and it seems in line with what we know of Yatwer 'loving' the downtrodden and all that. There is the part with the slave in TWL I believe where she says he can be saved even working for Fanayal, but only if he reaches for Yatwer upon death. And Mimara offers Galian redemption in the form of repentance, which implies there is some tie between genuine morality and salvation/damnation. Lastly, Bakker himself ties morality into Damnation when he states accumulation of sin is what draws the interests of demons/gods, and that the key to the series is who is saved and who is damned. 

I guess these questions are just made confusing with this TGO granary reveal. I still don't think we know enough about the Outside and the nature of Damnation/salvation to make as many of the assumptions that we might be making. It certainly leads me to wonder what Mimara would see if she saw your normal Earwan with the judging eye (and not barely human scalpers, Dunyain, the most violent of all men, and a sorcerer). 

Since like you said everyone seems to be damned and the only person Mimara saw with The Judging Eye that wasn't damned was herself, Mimara has done a bunch of bad things, while she can be good to people at times so does Akka and Esmi and Akka is DAMNED maybe she sees herself not damned because she is the holder of the Eye. Just a crackpot thought but you could always argue against it by what Mimara said in TJE ( the shining men and woman)  like you said.

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You get damned (ie, sucked into the eternal torture machine) for having the wrong belief, as well. So two people can live exactly the same lives, but one has the 'wrong' belief and the other is classed as living a sinless life.

What a show, eh?

I wouldn't even assign Hitler to Earwa damnation.

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3 hours ago, redeagl said:

My sarcasm detector is off so I will just go with it, Lord Harapior ( not sure of the name)  who "tortured" Serwa ( or rather vice versa)  and supposedly died in the carnage at the end.

I really didn't mean to be sarcastic.  I honestly didn't remember a Lord Torturer.  I figured it might have been a non-man, but as a serious question... why should I care who his son was?  Did he have a line that I'm not remembering that says something along the lines of "My son will damn you all!!!!  Muahahahaha"?

As to the mountains west of Golgotterath, do we have any reason to think there is something odd about them other than being west of Golgotterath?  I know we have wondered about all the mysterious circles on the maps and if they could be the location of other Arks (think that one was shot down) or scaldings; but I don't recall any specific questions on those?

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10 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I really didn't mean to be sarcastic.  I honestly didn't remember a Lord Torturer.  I figured it might have been a non-man, but as a serious question... why should I care who his son was?  Did he have a line that I'm not remembering that says something along the lines of "My son will damn you all!!!!  Muahahahaha"?

As to the mountains west of Golgotterath, do we have any reason to think there is something odd about them other than being west of Golgotterath?  I know we have wondered about all the mysterious circles on the maps and if they could be the location of other Arks (think that one was shot down) or scaldings; but I don't recall any specific questions on those?

Lmao,honestly I don't remember any line of him mentioning his son too but then again I am too stupid to ccompletely understand and remember these Ishterebinrh chapters. I guess the tease meant that his son is someone of importance or will be relevant later and he is already someone we know.

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Maybe he fathered some Dunyain and that's why they have some Nonmn blood.

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