Bakker XLVII: Eär-War - A Nomen of Onomatopoeic Omen

[redeagl]

6 hours ago, lokisnow said:

@Kalbear isn't going to like this, but I think that @Michael Seswatha Jordan is right in some way about love.

First, Koringhus, the stones, the crab handed boy, and love, the reason he rescues and keeps and nurtures the child. Ties in to zero somehow too, I think.

Then Kellhus, inexplicably returning to Momemn, as MSJ says ties into the "heart crash to ruin" stuff.

but the counter of course that Kellhus knew this was so but still doesn't make sense for him to return unless it's just a collapse of the probabilities enforced by the WLW requirements.

 

I think Kellhus is aware of zero, aware of the judging eye, but is choosing not to go the route of koringhus (possibly in order to save the world), and I think in knowledge of those things, he's aware he needs those vestigial emotions and connections and irrationalities. He needs to love Esmenet for the same reason that Leto II needs the outcomes of his genetic engineering program in GEoD. because if Love is the answer, Kellhus needs to be willing to sacrifice all for her, or it is all for naught. but it can't be rational self interest, because it isn't a rational thing. I think Kellhus knows he has to allow it, but he doesn't know how the pathways of his connection to love will manifest because those pathways are the sideways step of zero-made-one, the essence of connection, soul-to-soul connections that are invisible to the granary/starving sky render of the world but are the essence of the zero-universe. (perhaps this is even whey the no god is invisible to the gods--and why there is the semantic similarity to zero in the name no-god--he is invisible because like zero he is outside the render framework of the granary/starving sky world but unlike zero he encompasses the absence of soul-to-soul connections.

So that's a long winded way to say that Kellhus may very well know that Esmenet is the key but also know that he can't interrogate those pathways without destroying them in the process, so he has to let them be and improvise within the framework of love and it's impact on the soul.

So, one might ask, what prompted all this nonsense?

A minor little quote from the WHCB section of TGO that I was just going to drop in here with nothing but the comment, "problem solved, you're welcome"  but I felt like it needed a bigger explanation , and now everything I wrote seems silly and overly elaborate and projectionist.

But in any event, in spite of my silly ramblings, you all should take this following synopsis very seriously in light of Kellhus returning for Esmenet known in the context of the revelations from the Survivor storyline:

The entire climax of the famous Inrilitis conversation builds to is the revelation about Kellhus' love for Esmenet in connection to the larger fundamental philosophies of the series.

So, why does Kellhus come back for Esmenet? I don't really know, as the above babbling should prove, but I think Kellhus comes back for Esement because there fundamentally is not a story if he does not come back for Esmenet, that it is a crucial for the narrative to function that he come back for her.

Interesting, while I don't necessarily agree with you, that theory could also be supported by the fact that Kellhus have been conditioning Proyas to lead the GO fromearly TWLW ( or even earlier)  so Kellhus returning have always been a part of TTT. I also don't think that Kellhus is going to return soon, probably while the GO are storming Golgotterath (Shimeh style) after all of the conditioning, surely Kellhus wouldn't let Proyas lead the GO just for a day or two, which makes me wonder what is he going to do between that time...

Now for why I disagree, I don't think Kellhus is going to save any world in any way.The ends of Kellhus' edited version of TTT is still a mystery to us, also Saubon has that interesting line just after Proyas goes to him after being raped. It was something like : Proyas: We are still going to save the world, right? 

Saubon smiles: is that what we are doing? 

Anyway Loki and MSJ, you still could be right I wouldn't write saving the world off but that is just my point of view.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

6 hours ago, lokisnow said:

@Kalbear isn't going to like this, but I think that @Michael Seswatha Jordan is right in some way about love.

First, Koringhus, the stones, the crab handed boy, and love, the reason he rescues and keeps and nurtures the child. Ties in to zero somehow too, I think.

Then Kellhus, inexplicably returning to Momemn, as MSJ says ties into the "heart crash to ruin" stuff.

but the counter of course that Kellhus knew this was so but still doesn't make sense for him to return unless it's just a collapse of the probabilities enforced by the WLW requirements.

 

I think Kellhus is aware of zero, aware of the judging eye, but is choosing not to go the route of koringhus (possibly in order to save the world), and I think in knowledge of those things, he's aware he needs those vestigial emotions and connections and irrationalities. He needs to love Esmenet for the same reason that Leto II needs the outcomes of his genetic engineering program in GEoD. because if Love is the answer, Kellhus needs to be willing to sacrifice all for her, or it is all for naught. but it can't be rational self interest, because it isn't a rational thing. I think Kellhus knows he has to allow it, but he doesn't know how the pathways of his connection to love will manifest because those pathways are the sideways step of zero-made-one, the essence of connection, soul-to-soul connections that are invisible to the granary/starving sky render of the world but are the essence of the zero-universe. (perhaps this is even whey the no god is invisible to the gods--and why there is the semantic similarity to zero in the name no-god--he is invisible because like zero he is outside the render framework of the granary/starving sky world but unlike zero he encompasses the absence of soul-to-soul connections.

So that's a long winded way to say that Kellhus may very well know that Esmenet is the key but also know that he can't interrogate those pathways without destroying them in the process, so he has to let them be and improvise within the framework of love and it's impact on the soul.

So, one might ask, what prompted all this 

Right, I have said before that Kellhus indeed knows about zero. It just does not fit with his goal to save the world. Wether Kellhus is holy or not (most likely),  his goal is to save the world. Why? Because throughout PoN he experiences changes, emotions come flooding in. Yes, is he a user of people to accomplish his goals, sure. But, his relationships he's accumulated is what make him want to save the world and end damnation. That's a great find by the way, in the WHcB.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

3 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Interesting, while I don't necessarily agree with you, that theory could also be supported by the fact that Kellhus have been conditioning Proyas to lead the GO fromearly TWLW ( or even earlier)  so Kellhus returning have always been a part of TTT. I also don't think that Kellhus is going to return soon, probably while the GO are storming Golgotterath (Shimeh style) after all of the conditioning, surely Kellhus wouldn't let Proyas lead the GO just for a day or two, which makes me wonder what is he going to do between that time...

I also wonder that. But, why can you see it as possible from Locke, but not from MSJ? Huh, here I thought we was friends.....

[redeagl]

2 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I also wonder that. But, why can you see it as possible from Locke, but not from MSJ? Huh, here I thought we was friends.....

Because you are a Zaudunyanni and Loki isn't 

[redeagl]

22 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Right, I have said before that Kellhus indeed knows about zero. It just does not fit with his goal to save the world. Wether Kellhus is holy or not (most likely),  his goal is to save the world. Why? Because throughout PoN he experiences changes, emotions come flooding in. Yes, is he a user of people to accomplish his goals, sure. But, his relationships he's accumulated is what make him want to save the world and end damnation. That's a great find by the way, in the WHcB.

His emotions actually aren't constant and only when his Shortest Path totally fails ( the Crucifixion)  does he really break out. While it is stated in TTT ( the book)  that he loves Esmi it is still a tiny emotion. 20 years is a long period to make or break emotions and the next time we delve into his point of view he is again utterly devoid of emotion, he is even mentioned as a "Place" not a person whatever that means. So probably he has lost the tiny bits of Darkness that came before him. I can't see his TTT being animated by his love for humanity in general. His love for Esmi is a different matter...

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

18 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Because you are a Zaudunyanni and Loki isn't 

No, no. If I root for anyone it would be Akka and Mimara. I just think you can't think of Kellhus as just Dunyain, he is more, ergo he has emotions. They're needed to accomplish saving the world. And why would he want to save the world and end damnation if he cared for no one?

[.H.]

2 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

No, no. If I root for anyone it would be Akka and Mimara. I just think you can't think of Kellhus as just Dunyain, he is more, ergo he has emotions. They're needed to accomplish saving the world. And why would he want to save the world and end damnation if he cared for no one?

Well, ending damnation would presumably help himself too, since he has done plenty to garner it, from sorcery to atrocities (and for all he can do, I don't think he is/will be immortal).

Not that I buy he doesn't care about "saving the world" but I also don't buy it being that he does all of this out of caring.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

10 minutes ago, .H. said:

Well, ending damnation would presumably help himself too, since he has done plenty to garner it, from sorcery to atrocities (and for all he can do, I don't think he is/will be immortal).

Not that I buy he doesn't care about "saving the world" but I also don't buy it being that he does all of this out of caring.

I think me and your debates over this have been misunderstood. Is Kellhus a caring, doting father, no. But, I always take it back to the Circumfix. It's when the loss of a innocent, that he thought he cared nothing for and really did, changed him. Remember, Serwe is who made Kellhus to be holy, and he thought her deluded. And, saving the world from the Consult, ending damnation was made easier after the loss of Serwe, he had a purpose then. Before, it was all about achieving the Absolute, now it's about fulfilling the TT. It all changed hanging there with Serwe. He gained emotions and became more.

Could I be wrong, sure, probably am. It's just my reading of the text and that's why we have these forums to debate. Your arguments are well thought out and just as plausible as anything I put forth. But, I think we think a little bit closer alike than our arguing suggests.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@.H., on Kellhus being immortal. I think he dies at the end of TUC. While, again, Akka kneels over him and Kellhus confides in him. I think Mimara will be the real hero of the series. I am just so interested in her twin that is alive, with all the connections with twins in this series, that twin has to be special. 

[redeagl]

4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I think me and your debates over this have been misunderstood. Is Kellhus a caring, doting father, no. But, I always take it back to the Circumfix. It's when the loss of a innocent, that he thought he cared nothing for and really did, changed him. Remember, Serwe is who made Kellhus to be holy, and he thought her deluded. And, saving the world from the Consult, ending damnation was made easier after the loss of Serwe, he had a purpose then. Before, it was all about achieving the Absolute, now it's about fulfilling the TT. It all changed hanging there with Serwe. He gained emotions and became more.

Could I be wrong, sure, probably am. It's just my reading of the text and that's why we have these forums to debate. Your arguments are well thought out and just as plausible as anything I put forth. But, I think we think a little bit closer alike than our arguing suggests.

Looks like I read the Circumfix sene really wrong. I thought that Kellhus wept for himself and his failures. His sadness for Serwë was just a small part of it and I also don't think that Kellhus realized on the Circumfix that Serwë is the reason of his "holiness" probably that is just me and I read the scene really wrong.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

13 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Looks like I read the Circumfix sene really wrong. I thought that Kellhus wept for himself and his failures. His sadness for Serwë was just a small part of it and I also don't think that Kellhus realized on the Circumfix that Serwë is the reason of his "holiness" probably that is just me and I read the scene really wrong.

He wept because he was overcome with emotions he never felt before, how I read it. It's onlyyour interpretation. I didn't mean Kellhus realized that Serwe was the reason for his holiness was realized on the Circumfix, either. It was a statement. Who was the first to see the haloes? Serwe. Kellhus thought her crazy. Then others began to see them, then he seen them. Serwe's devotion to Kellhus and belief that he was holy is what spurred him to become holy to others. He seen it worked to his advantage and used it. Is he really holy? Maybe not now, but maybe something he does will make him holy, thus the haloes. Like Mimara has always had the Eye because of how time works on Earwa, Kellhus has the haloes because of some future event that will.make him truly holy.

[.H.]

2 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I think me and your debates over this have been misunderstood. Is Kellhus a caring, doting father, no. But, I always take it back to the Circumfix. It's when the loss of a innocent, that he thought he cared nothing for and really did, changed him. Remember, Serwe is who made Kellhus to be holy, and he thought her deluded. And, saving the world from the Consult, ending damnation was made easier after the loss of Serwe, he had a purpose then. Before, it was all about achieving the Absolute, now it's about fulfilling the TT. It all changed hanging there with Serwe. He gained emotions and became more.

Could I be wrong, sure, probably am. It's just my reading of the text and that's why we have these forums to debate. Your arguments are well thought out and just as plausible as anything I put forth. But, I think we think a little bit closer alike than our arguing suggests.

Well, I think we vary somewhat on degrees, but also in just what the emotions that Kellhus feels are doing to him.

My hunch is that while he feels, those feelings do not move him.  In other words, he still does what the Thousanfold Though requires, what the Shortest Path is, what rationality demands.  Sometimes (and seemingly contractually) feeling is an actual requirement though and I think that is what the Koringhus chapters are really telling us.  Logic (aka, Logos) alone does not yield the Absolute, one must suffer loss.  This is why Serwë is key, because in that moment of her death, he actually suffers loss.

This is why Maith and Inrilatas are wrong, that love has Kellhus off the Shortest Path, just as Moe (the elder) was wrong.  They see nothing beyond the Logos and no break in the Principle of Before and After.  As I have said many times, my hunch is that Kellhus is beyond Before and After, because the Voice is beyond Before and After.  Koringhus shows us the path to the Absolute and emotion has a role, because the Logos alone isn't the Shortest Path, it's a dead end.

So, what do we really differ on?  Well, a manner of degrees.  I feel that Kellhus experiences feelings and that those emotions are part of his plan, but that he is not actually motivated by those emotions.

To me, this minor distinction is a major component in understanding Kellhus.  He has feelings, but is not feeling driven, feelings are simply a part of The Thousandfold Thought, they are a key component to the emergence of whatever will be.

24 minutes ago, redeagl said:

Looks like I read the Circumfix sene really wrong. I thought that Kellhus wept for himself and his failures. His sadness for Serwë was just a small part of it and I also don't think that Kellhus realized on the Circumfix that Serwë is the reason of his "holiness" probably that is just me and I read the scene really wrong.

No, that's not wrong, but somewhat incomplete, I think.  If you can, look back at my post earlier where I quote that scene.  He does feel something for Serwë even if it is entwined with him fearing his own failure.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Ok, but what "drives" him to follow the TT, hmmm? You admitted.it's not the Shortest Path. Something has to drive him towards these goals. It isn't a whimsical goal, "Hmm, u think I might just for on ahead and take that Thought a bit farther, not much more to do around here.". There has to be a basis on which Kellhus is driven to save the world and end damnation. A couple posts ago, you admitted that immortality probably isn't a goal or even achievable for Kellhus. So, what drives him then? No one, go to the lengths this man has for the fun of it. Something inside him makes him want to enact the TT, save the world, end damnation. And, what is the difference between being driven by emotion and emotion being needed by the TT? Regardless, the emotion is there. 

[.H.]

12 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Ok, but what "drives" him to follow the TT, hmmm? You admitted.it's not the Shortest Path. Something has to drive him towards these goals. It isn't a whimsical goal, "Hmm, u think I might just for on ahead and take that Thought a bit farther, not much more to do around here.". There has to be a basis on which Kellhus is driven to save the world and end damnation. A couple posts ago, you admitted that immortality probably isn't a goal or even achievable for Kellhus. So, what drives him then? No one, go to the lengths this man has for the fun of it. Something inside him makes him want to enact the TT, save the world, end damnation. And, what is the difference between being driven by emotion and emotion being needed by the TT? Regardless, the emotion is there. 

No, I do believe that the Thousandfold Thought is the Shortest Path, because the Shortest Path that Moe believes he sees and the same one that Maith and Inrilatas imagine, are dead ends.  The Logos isn't the beginning and the end, it is merely a tool that is useful, but an incomplete one.  I think a key is that where the Logos' end is the destruction of meaning, Kellhus' is a redefining of meaning.  I think Kellhus realizes the threat that meaninglessness holds, maybe that is through emotion, maybe not, I'm not sure.  Kellhus is still, at the end of the day, hyper-rational and to me, emotion considered is different than emotion driven.

Driven would mean he does things for emotional (non-rational) reasons, where my hypothesis is Kellhus simply considers emotion in his rational evaluation of what to do.  In the driven case, emotion is the cause.  In the considered, it is simply one of a number of factors.

An example of emotion driven is Koringhus rescuing his son from the nursery.  He simply moves based on a feeling, one he has no rational motive for.  I still have yet to see Kellhus do anything so impulsive.  Rather, he feels, then he considers his feelings, then he factors them into his rational plan and to me that makes a world of difference.  Consider, what love does Kellhus have for his children?  Think of what he allows to happen to them, what Theli suffers and how she dies.  What little Kel does to Sammi.  What Serwa is put through.  What Inrilatas is allowed to do and suffered to live like.  Why, if Kellhus has so much feeling for Esmenet, does he allow his children, her children, to suffer and die?

The question of what drives Kellhus then is a very good one.  One that I still struggle with.  One hypothesis I presented was the idea that perhaps he is attempting to become the Solitary God (recall, my feeling is that the Solitary God, as of now, is not existent, it is simply an idea).  Another idea is that he simply wishes to rewrite the rules of damnation, that is rewrite the Cubit according to his own rubric, creature meaning for humans, by humans.  Alternately, it is possible that Kellhus is pulling something of a long-con on everyone, and wants exactly what the Consult does (closed world), only minus the Consult.

The issue with the latter two, of course, is that Kellhus would still die and so, what is the end-game there?  If he had ever shown an ounce of love for his kids, I'd say, maybe dynasty.  But he is all so willing to throw them all under the bus.  Unless of course none of them matter, except one.  One is all you'd need for a dynasty, really.  It would have to be Serwa, in my mind, perhaps Kayutas, but I doubt it.

[lokisnow]

2 hours ago, .H. said:

Well, I think we vary somewhat on degrees, but also in just what the emotions that Kellhus feels are doing to him.

My hunch is that while he feels, those feelings do not move him.  In other words, he still does what the Thousanfold Though requires, what the Shortest Path is, what rationality demands.  Sometimes (and seemingly contractually) feeling is an actual requirement though and I think that is what the Koringhus chapters are really telling us.  Logic (aka, Logos) alone does not yield the Absolute, one must suffer loss.  This is why Serwë is key, because in that moment of her death, he actually suffers loss.

This is why Maith and Inrilatas are wrong, that love has Kellhus off the Shortest Path, just as Moe (the elder) was wrong.  They see nothing beyond the Logos and no break in the Principle of Before and After.  As I have said many times, my hunch is that Kellhus is beyond Before and After, because the Voice is beyond Before and After.  Koringhus shows us the path to the Absolute and emotion has a role, because the Logos alone isn't the Shortest Path, it's a dead end.

So, what do we really differ on?  Well, a manner of degrees.  I feel that Kellhus experiences feelings and that those emotions are part of his plan, but that he is not actually motivated by those emotions.

To me, this minor distinction is a major component in understanding Kellhus.  He has feelings, but is not feeling driven, feelings are simply a part of The Thousandfold Thought, they are a key component to the emergence of whatever will be.

 

Totally agree, kellhus does not dismiss emotions as noise or an element to be decomposed or reduced to logos components.

***

hypothesis: kellhus does not labor to save the world from damnation nor does he labor to save his own soul from damnation; kellhus labors to save serwe from damnation.

[redeagl]

49 minutes ago, .H. said:

No, I do believe that the Thousandfold Thought is the Shortest Path, because the Shortest Path that Moe believes he sees and the same one that Maith and Inrilatas imagine, are dead ends.  The Logos isn't the beginning and the end, it is merely a tool that is useful, but an incomplete one.  I think a key is that where the Logos' end is the destruction of meaning, Kellhus' is a redefining of meaning.  I think Kellhus realizes the threat that meaninglessness holds, maybe that is through emotion, maybe not, I'm not sure.  Kellhus is still, at the end of the day, hyper-rational and to me, emotion considered is different than emotion driven.

Driven would mean he does things for emotional (non-rational) reasons, where my hypothesis is Kellhus simply considers emotion in his rational evaluation of what to do.  In the driven case, emotion is the cause.  In the considered, it is simply one of a number of factors.

An example of emotion driven is Koringhus rescuing his son from the nursery.  He simply moves based on a feeling, one he has no rational motive for.  I still have yet to see Kellhus do anything so impulsive.  Rather, he feels, then he considers his feelings, then he factors them into his rational plan and to me that makes a world of difference.  Consider, what love does Kellhus have for his children?  Think of what he allows to happen to them, what Theli suffers and how she dies.  What little Kel does to Sammi.  What Serwa is put through.  What Inrilatas is allowed to do and suffered to live like.  Why, if Kellhus has so much feeling for Esmenet, does he allow his children, her children, to suffer and die?

The question of what drives Kellhus then is a very good one.  One that I still struggle with.  One hypothesis I presented was the idea that perhaps he is attempting to become the Solitary God (recall, my feeling is that the Solitary God, as of now, is not existent, it is simply an idea).  Another idea is that he simply wishes to rewrite the rules of damnation, that is rewrite the Cubit according to his own rubric, creature meaning for humans, by humans.  Alternately, it is possible that Kellhus is pulling something of a long-con on everyone, and wants exactly what the Consult does (closed world), only minus the Consult.

The issue with the latter two, of course, is that Kellhus would still die and so, what is the end-game there?  If he had ever shown an ounce of love for his kids, I'd say, maybe dynasty.  But he is all so willing to throw them all under the bus.  Unless of course none of them matter, except one.  One is all you'd need for a dynasty, really.  It would have to be Serwa, in my mind, perhaps Kayutas, but I doubt it.

I have to say H, this post is really something totally intelligent and mind blowing ( no offence MSJ but I like posts that paint Kellhus as  bad guy  ) 

5 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Totally agree, kellhus does not dismiss emotions as noise or an element to be decomposed or reduced to logos components.

***

hypothesis: kellhus does not labor to save the world from damnation nor does he labor to save his own soul from damnation; kellhus labors to save serwe from damnation.

Lol, why would he want to do that?  absolute crackpot. I never even thought that Kellhus loved Serwë he didn't know her value until after she died ( he only thought of her as a tool to keep Cnaiür intact)  and then she was of no use so why bother? 

[.H.]

39 minutes ago, redeagl said:

I have to say H, this post is really something totally intelligent and mind blowing ( no offence MSJ but I like posts that paint Kellhus as  bad guy  )

Come now, it's certainly not all that,

47 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

hypothesis: kellhus does not labor to save the world from damnation nor does he labor to save his own soul from damnation; kellhus labors to save serwe from damnation.

Well, that sort of off-hand line about Serwë burning in hell sure is a pickle.  Do we take Kellhus at his word?  I mean, he seems to preface what he is telling Proyas as being "the truth."  If it's a lie, then it's just a goad or a jarring proclamation, pretty simple.

However, if it is true, the implications are much bigger.  In this way, I feel pretty sure it is true.  I think it speaks to Serwë's death making Kellhus "holy" not herself.  She paid the truly ultimate price, taking on damnation so that Kellhus could play the Savior.  Perhaps that is how she is the "thematic lynchpin of the series." (I keep thinking Bakker said she was a cipher, but he didn't.)

She loses, Akka loses (in PoN), Esmenet loses, Theli loses, Fanayal loses, Proyas loses, Saubon loses, Moë (the elder) loses, and the list goes on and on.  Koringhus tells us "loss is advantage."  What should we be drawing from this?  Is it that Kellhus' advantage all comes from the loss of others?

[lokisnow]

5 hours ago, redeagl said:

Don't think the past tense of the books have anything to do with the plot, most epic fantasy books are written in past tense. What intrigues me is why Mim's chapters are written in the present tense.

 

RSB himself answered this in the thread linked in the first post. 

Basically he wanted to concretize the traditional subjective belief that women's knowledge was a distinct unique thing.  Since mimara has unique access to sacred intuitive knowledge, he wanted to stylize her parts uniquely.

probably ought to go find the quote, rather than paraphrase but I'm on my phone so I won't.

[Callan S.]

9 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I think Mimara will be the real hero of the series. I am just so interested in her twin that is alive, with all the connections with twins in this series, that twin has to be special. 

Twin? Where is that detailed?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

10 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

Twin? Where is that detailed?

When Koringhus is scrutinizing her, he hears two heartbeats, something like that. It's implied she is carrying twins.