Bakker XLVII: Eär-War - A Nomen of Onomatopoeic Omen

[.H.]

27 minutes ago, unJon said:

Why do you say Meppa became a Cish post Shimeh? I though all the Cish except Meppa died at Shimeh, so who would have taugh Meppa? 

Drawing from his family being killed by Kellhus, sparking his hatred.  Although, I admit in thinking about it now, that doesn't preclude him already being a Cishaurim...

[.H.]

11 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Yeah, our knowledge of their system is limited, but presumably they are in fact a school of sorts with training and a hierarchy.  Then again, there is at least one, Fane himself, who just found the water without training, so perhaps we can't entirely rule out such a thing happening again.

Yeah, in retrospect, the way it was framed I pictured Meppa was a kid when he family died and he "awakened" to the Water.  Of course, that's just something I realize I made up in my head, even though it might be true or not.  I'm not really on board with Meppa coming to do anything but hate Kellhus further, but as we saw from him letting Akka live, Kellhus isn't scared to have enemies.  In fact, he seems to cultivate some...

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, .H. said:

Presumably Meppa wouldn't have known Mallahet, since Meppa seems to have become a Cishuarim post-Shimeh and Moe would already have been dead.  I mean, maybe he knew of him though.

I think Meppa is key because he has the Psûhke, which is one of the few things Kellhus doesn't.  Whether it's for Kellhus to learn, or for him to manipulate Meppa into using I'm not sure though.  My guess would be that Kellhus will learn it though.

I don't think Kellhus will learn it. Unless we have some montage, there's really no time for that sort of thing and it's pretty clear that Kellhus believes it to be a dead end for him. 

Kelmomas learning it - as he's quite passionate - would be more likely. But I still find implausible. My feeling is simply that Meppa was something cool and Fayanal's ace in the hole, and that's all he was.

[redeagl]

Quote

Unlike the Gnosis or Anagnosis, Psukhe seems to have come from humans directly(instead of Nonmen). Did the nonmen ever have anything to do with Psukhe? Did humans prior to Fane have anything to do with Psukhe?

Prior to Fane, the Psukhe as an arcane art was unknown, though there are legendary hints and mythic innuendos of certain sightless individuals harnessing inexplicable powers in moments of extraordinary anguish.

 

[unJon]

1 hour ago, redeagl said:

 

Have you read False Sun? It comes up there. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Something @bakkerfans said at SA is that if he would recommend any book to reread before TUC it would be TTT. I found that very interesting. Maybe some Moe theories might still be alive, no?

[lokisnow]

I asked this:

Quote

A question I had recently in rereading TDTCB, The synthese tells Inrau that he will show Inrau the Agonies because Inrau worships suffering. I don’t really get it, would you maybe elaborate on that point?

Got this answer from RSB

Quote

Because for the Consult, worshipping the Gods amounts to advocating damnation.

Which I find VERY interesting, I would have never interpreted the text along those lines.

Because that verbiage, "advocate" that sounds like a term for an "Argument" (ala Neuropath)

The the consult are in some sense having an argument with stubborn Earwans about what/why the natives believe and why they are wrong to do so because reasons/science/etc

pedantically, probably.

Which makes me think that the Inverse Fire is not some elaborate whatchamathingy we've all made it out to be.

Rather, this makes me think that the Inverse Fire is just a tool the Consult used to illustrate their side of the argument: "see, this is what your stupid ideas mean you stupid head, you're so stupid you don't even act in your's soul's economic best interest!"

I always get very leary when people start trying to figure out whether or not this belief or that belief in Earwa is Right or Wrong or truthful or not. I'm really not invested in the truthiness or falsity of the inverse fire so I am inclined to speculations that minimize it.

In terms of the series as a whole, I have found it suspicious for years that so much info on the Inverse fire was dumped in a web-story never to be found by the vast majority of the series readership, and have often found it hard to believe that something seemingly so crucial was so poorly integrated into the novel texts. which has made me suspect maybe it isn't crucial at all? perhaps we just all blew it out of proportion in the titanic wait for TGO/TUC? Perhaps the inverse fire is just a little thing, perhaps it is as we saw in the ending of TGO, the inverse fire is a thing to be totally non plussed by when actually encountered.  

(or a thing designed to argue to a non-human)

***

One other thing that is more rooted in what RSB said and less in my late night free associating is this:

"worshipping the gods amounts to advocating damnation"

We believe the consult to be the greatest evil, as the text clearly portrays

except of course the gods have been described as the greatest evil, as the text clearly portrays

From the perspective of the consult, sure "Aurax and I are evil, but not so evil as those who worship the beings who are demonstrably more evil than ourselves" Anyone who would support, promote and continue to perpetuate the greater evil must be evil and are in fact, more evil than themselves

***

so there you have, straightforward, the consult believes Earwans are the evil ones because Earwans  _WORSHIP_ the greatest evil in the universe and continue to promulgate its existence.

[Callan S.]

I'm pretty sure if the consult were torturing people to try and grasp the extent of the damnationtorturemachine, they've experienced something before that, not just an intellectual idea. Perhaps there's a bit of the movie Flatliners in behind the inverse fire?

[redeagl]

@unJon yep, I have read it a couple of years ago but my memory is a bit Nonmannish so I don't remember that reference. I would certainly re-read it before TUC.

8 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Something @bakkerfans said at SA is that if he would recommend any book to reread before TUC it would be TTT. I found that very interesting. Maybe some Moe theories might still be alive, no?

In TTT there were a couple of unexplained bizarre scenes, the two street boys seeing Maithanet, the boy in Shimeh ( Meppa? ) who Auranga approached, when the Zaudunyanni Nancenti guy ( forgot his name)  kidnapped and interrogated Esmenet's Fanim servant. That guy also happens to be in Momemn and if I remember right, Esmenet mentioned in TTT that he was a bit stubborn to her commands.

 

[Corvinus85]

Just finished my re-read of the TTT. I think it's my favorite of the first trilogy. When I first read them, I thought the second one was the best, but between some of the revelations and answers to some questions, Akka's conflict with himself, and the awesome clusterfuck that was the battle of Shimeh, TTT is my favorite now.

One question: How exactly did Cnaiur die? I remember after my first read, I didn't even realize he died. Now I know he is dead just because of the info I have, but his final scene is still confusing.

On to the Judging Eye. Unfortunately, on my first read, I found this one to be the slowest of all the books (can't speak for the Great Ordeal yet), and with less than a week from the release of Mass Effect Andromeda, it might be awhile til I finish it.

[Rhom]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Just finished my re-read of the TTT. I think it's my favorite of the first trilogy. When I first read them, I thought the second one was the best, but between some of the revelations and answers to some questions, Akka's conflict with himself, and the awesome clusterfuck that was the battle of Shimeh, TTT is my favorite now.

One question: How exactly did Cnaiur die? I remember after my first read, I didn't even realize he died. Now I know he is dead just because of the info I have, but his final scene is still confusing.

On to the Judging Eye. Unfortunately, on my first read, I found this one to be the slowest of all the books (can't speak for the Great Ordeal yet), and with less than a week from the release of Mass Effect Andromeda, it might be awhile til I finish it.

Ummmm... All I can tell you is the old Robert Jordan standby Read And Find Out.   

And yes, TJE has always been the slowest read of the series for me.  And I also plan to delve deeply into Andromeda soon.

[redeagl]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Just finished my re-read of the TTT. I think it's my favorite of the first trilogy. When I first read them, I thought the second one was the best, but between some of the revelations and answers to some questions, Akka's conflict with himself, and the awesome clusterfuck that was the battle of Shimeh, TTT is my favorite now.

One question: How exactly did Cnaiur die? I remember after my first read, I didn't even realize he died. Now I know he is dead just because of the info I have, but his final scene is still confusing.

On to the Judging Eye. Unfortunately, on my first read, I found this one to be the slowest of all the books (can't speak for the Great Ordeal yet), and with less than a week from the release of Mass Effect Andromeda, it might be awhile til I finish it.

The Skin-spies killed him or he killed himself I think. Now get out from here or "spoilers will rot you soul.Eternally."

[Corvinus85]

8 minutes ago, redeagl said:

The Skin-spies killed him or he killed himself I think. Now get out from here or "spoilers will rot you soul.Eternally."

That's why I only dip in the thread now and then, when I have a question, and hope that people read my entire post as I always mention that I have not read TGO. And I'm going with Rhom's comment on my Cnaiur question.

[redeagl]

36 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

That's why I only dip in the thread now and then, when I have a question, and hope that people read my entire post as I always mention that I have not read TGO. And I'm going with Rhom's comment on my Cnaiur question.

Without going into more detail, the cause of Cnaiür's death is touched upon later. Also I agree with you regarding TJE's pace. I also felt it was a bit slow in my first read, especially after TTT.

[bakkerfans]

@ Kalbear - Thank you very much for the big feedback! Lots to think about. 

@ Callan - Understood! I want to get beer with you too, Callan! Are you near the DC area?

@ kuenjato - No update on excerpt, I'm sorry I hope to get an update on this soon. 

@ DR2 - Ok! No banned yet! Yay!

@ larrytheimp - Truly? I have no fucking clue. TUC ends with a clear bang, but Bakker could still go a lot of ways with the title. I'm reminded that he was going to call WLW, The Shortest Path, so I think he might be less married to titles than he's let on. I still think there's a good chance his editor might prevail on Bakker to not make the next series a spoiler title. Idk. Sorry to add no clarity whatsoever. 

[Madness]

Lol - much love, MG.

All of a sudden I feel the unadulterated hype regarding TUC ;)!

EDIT: I'm going to guess it's the hangover from St. Patrick's Day.

[Anatúrinbor]

@bakkerfans Read your PMs before it's too late...  (if you haven't already)

[Corvinus85]

So at the start of Akka's first chapter in The Judging Eye, it says the location is southwestern Galeoth, which to my mind means near the Nansur border, and maybe near the sea as well. But apparently there are Sranc there. And then he goes east with those people towards Cil-Aujas. So typo or does Bakker not know his coordinates?

[LuckyCharms]

Galeoth borders Cepalor to the west, so they don't actually border the Nansurium—though I guess it's technically part of the Nansur Empire, but it's a tributary state. I don't believe that Galeoth actually extend its borders all the way to the Meneanor Sea. So the province of Hunoreal is just south of Lake Huosi which is their southern terminus. This land borders a pretty huge buffer zone of not-civilized land between Thunyerus and Galoeth. Though most of that land had been cleared out in a decade by all the scalpers.

Most of Galeoth is everything east of the Vindauga River and everything north of the Rohil, with Hunoreal being the tiny strip south of Rohil. So if Achamian is in the marches to the south of Galeoth bordering the Huosi, that is southwestern Galeoth.

[lokisnow]

Will there be ARCs  of the unholy consult?