Bakker XLVII: Eär-War - A Nomen of Onomatopoeic Omen

[lokisnow]

12 hours ago, aimlessgun said:

Just finished TGO, glad to see these threads are still going after all these years!

So I've been wondering how Kel escapes the WLW. Was Kelmomas calling out definitely the break from the forseen path? Why would Kelmomas be a blind spot for Yatwer? I thought the no-god was supposed to be their blind spot, is Kelmomas somehow connected to that? 

I listened to it via audiobook so its a bit of a pain to review, but did I hear it right that Esme tries to kill Kellhus on the WLW path and only doesn't because Kelmomas distracts her?

 

I think this is answered in the first chapter when kel starts following the white luck warrior. A lot time is spent on discussing what he is doing and I didn't pick up on it's relevance until after I finished the book and encountered it in reread 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

So, what did you pick up on and it's relevance? Not being a smartass, I could reread it and still not pick up on something others have.

[Rhom]

18 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

So, what did you pick up on and it's relevance? Not being a smartass, I could reread it and still not pick up on something others have.

Have the same request.

[Kalbear]

subpoenas only work if you use the summoning power of the board's notification system, like saying @lokisnow's name.

[Rhom]

59 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

subpoenas only work if you use the summoning power of the board's notification system, like saying @lokisnow's name.

Does the board version of the sheriff or a deputy stop in and deliver the subpoena by hand?

[Kalbear]

Just now, Rhom said:

Does the board version of the sheriff or a deputy stop in and deliver the subpoena by hand?

No, pretty much the board crashes

[Rhom]

Just now, Kalbear said:

No, pretty much the board crashes

Oh... so its just like when the GoT TV season starts back up?

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Oh... so its just like when the GoT TV season starts back up?

Basically, but with less incest and more black semen

[Larry of the Lawn]

I came for answers, I stayed for the black semen jokes.  

 

The modern version of the ol' Mandati saying though you lose your soul, you gain the world.

 

[Darth Richard II]

You folks been playing the new zelda? That game is FULL of black semen.

[lokisnow]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

You folks been playing the new zelda? That game is FULL of black semen.

I responded to the ecstatic reviews of the new one by realizing it had been Years since I played through the original, so I did that instead, including the second quest for the first time, which is extremely tough relative to the primary game

[lokisnow]

@Rhom @Kalbear @Michael Seswatha Jordan

Okay, but you all realize that everything I've ever written on the series is always already wrong, right?

But let's just try and stick to the text, I'm sure as I craft this post that it will go off the rails eventually, it usually does.

But be aware, I just started Stranger Things, and I'm writing this damn post instead of watching episode 2, so sacrifices for you people are being made.

Quote

Men, who belong to nature, apprehend their nature as Law when it seems to them to be restrained, and as nature when it seems to them to be unruly.

This is the chapter header for the first Momemn chapter of TGO, think of it in terms of TWLW and Kelmomas and how the pair of them walk "the only path" to achieving yatwer's goal of killing Kellhus (with earthquake, ceiling chorae, broken sword shard etc)

the explanation, however comes from chapter six.

Quote

“Witness!” an old crone shrieked. “Witnessss!” 

SECTION CHANGE

pulse slowed until beaten by a different heart. His breath deepened until drawn by different lungs. Watching with the constancy of the dead, Anasûrimbor Kelmomas settled into the grooves of another soul …

If it could be called such.

Quote

Only now could he see how wrong he had been— that this diversity had been apparent only, an illusion of his ignorance. How could he not think Men various and strange when Men were his only measure?

 

Now the boy knew better. Now he knew that every human excess, every bloom of manner or passion, radiated from a single, blind stem. For this man— the assassin that had somehow surprised Uncle Holy— had paced out the true beam of possible and impossible acts.

And it was not human … Not at all.

 

Bold mine, italics are original, but think on this, Kelmomas in, mapping the vagaries of the WLW is--as he is saying here--bypassing all the human noise and getting a direct feed of pure id signal.

This should be very valuable to even a half dunyain, as what Kellhus struggles with most from the prologue of book one is decomposing the signal and the noise whilst interacting with the world and with humans. 

Note to, that Bakker deliberately primes the audience by ending one section with a repetition of the word Witness. The next section is all about Kelmomas watching--witnessing. and note to that in priming the audience with WITNESS repetition at the end of the section it is actually Psatma making the repetition--Psatma of course is responsible for the existence of the WLW and it is important to keep in mind the value that she (and her goddess) places on WITNESS WITNESS(!!!), because the same should hold true of WLW. this is all direct text stuff, and seems very obvious how it is very carefully structured to make the reader hyper aware of the process of Witnessing of watching and of course you can't have a watcher without a watched. (however dividing up signifier and signified into pardigmatic and syntygmatic realtionships is probably too flattening a thing to get into, I think the close reading (not the author) is dead anyway, so bollucks to everyone).

but digression into christian metz aside, back to the text, what happens when the prince tries to witness

Quote

For all his gifts, the young Prince-Imperial had yet to learn the disease that was contemplation, how more often than not it was ignorance of alternatives that made bold action bold. He spied upon the Narindar, matching him immobility for immobility, pulling every corner of his being into the straight line that was the assassin’s soul— every corner, that is, save his intellect, which asked again and again, How can I end her? with the relentlessness of an insect. He lay unblinking, the taste of dust upon his tongue, scarcely breathing, peering between interleaved fronds of iron, raging at his twin, ranting, and even, on occasion, weeping for the unbearable injustice. And so he spun within a motionless frame, pondering, until pondering so polluted his pondering he could bear ponder no more!

He would marvel at it afterward, how the mere act of plotting Thelli’s murder had all but assured her survival. How all the scenarios, all the spitting disputes and aggrandizing declamations, had been a mere pretext for this eerie war of immobility he had undertaken against the Narindar … Issiral.

 

Kelm is clearly in the straight line that the narindar walks, because he is quite literally behind the Narindar when the narindar goes to kill kellhus he is literally on the straight line of the perfect path to killing kellhus. He's not so much in the narindar's wake, as he is a clone of the narindar's path, thus he is never outside that path, so the narindar does not account for kelmomas because kelmoms is functionally the same thing. 

Note how he runs into a basic science paradox with trying to kill theli: the act of observation (planning) results in the changing the thing that was observed. This is why he was unsuccessful, he could not control the variables.

The WLW is like a science experiment because the WLW is like a control, there is nothing that varies, incredibly valuable to a dunyain. Kelmomas does need an unmasking room of faces to isolate the variables of the musculature of the face, because he has the control--the WLW--to study, and he can compare all against it. 

And if in witnessing kelmomas changes it, then perhaps we have an answer for why the WLW failed: because observation changed the object being studied.

Quote

After endless watches of blank reverie, utter inactivity, the man would simply … do something. Piss. Eat. Take ablution, or on occasion, his leave. Kelmomas would lay watching, his body senseless for being so long inert, suddenly the man would … move. It was as shocking as stone leaping to life, for nothing betrayed any prior will or resolution to move, no restlessness, no impatience borne of anticipation … nothing. The Narindar would just be moving, exiting the door, stalking the frescoed corridors, and Kelmomas would scramble, cursing his prickling limbs. He would fly after him through the very walls … And then, for no apparent reason, the assassin would simply … stop. It was narcotic for simply being so strange. Several days passed before Kelmomas realized that no one … no one … ever witnessed the man acting this way. In the presence of others he would be remote, taciturn, act the way a terrifying assassin should, always careful to assure the others of his humanity, if nothing more. Several times it was Mother who encountered him, coming about a corner, through a door. And no matter what she said, if she said anything at all (for in certain company she would rather not encounter the man at all), he would simply nod wordlessly, then return to his room, and stand … Motionless. Issiral ate. He slept. He shat. His shit stank. The general terror of the slaves was to be expected, as was the hatred of Uncle Holy’s many intimates at the Imperial Court. But what was more remarkable still was the degree to which the man went unnoticed, how he would sometimes tarry in one spot, unseen, only to inexplicably pace five steps to his left, or his right, where he would stand unseen as a gaggle of scullery slaves passed teasing and whispering.

 

This describes a self moving soul. The dunyain seek a self-moving soul. 

followed by:

Quote

The enigma soon began to tyrannize the Prince-Imperial’s thoughts. He started dreaming of his vigils, reliving the stark discipline that occupied his days, except that when his body turned about to slip back in the labyrinthine tunnels, his soul would somehow remain fixed by the louvres, and he would simultaneously watch and crawl away, riven by a horror that plucked him to his very vein, the World shrieking as the face in the flint turned and ever so slowly swivelled up to match his incorporeal look—

 

there's a similarity here in the disassociation of body and soul to Kellhus' flashbacks to training "the logos is without beginning or end"

Kelmomas is being shaped... trained.

by whom?

well the chapter continues:

Quote

“The greatest of the Narindar, those possessing the blackest hearts … those they say become their mission, indistinguishable from Death. They act not of will, but of necessity, never knowing, always doing that which must be done …” A Vessel of Ajokli."

Why do you refuse to remember? The boy paused in the black. Remember what?

Your Whelming.

He continued his ascent through the cracks of his hallow house. I remember.

Then you remember that beetle …

So? The Gods court us …

And in his soul’s eye he could see Him standing opposite, Immortal Malice, smoking with the density of Creation …

 

hmm? We go from a section that ends on "A VESSEL OF AJOKLI" speaking of course about WLW, to a section of KELMOMAS pondering the ways in which HE is a vessel of ajokli. There's even a bit about how Kelmomas generally thinks of himself as a hero. and of course, once Kelmomas recognizes himself as the Vessel of Ajokli (not WLW), he seeings Ajokli himself as the quote I ended right there.(soul's eye is always tip-off language, I think)

So what happens in the paragraphs following him seeing Ajokli?

Quote

And in his soul’s eye he could see Him standing opposite, Immortal Malice, smoking with the density of Creation … Her face snapped toward him— the shock fairly knocked him from his skin. But she looked through him— for an instant it seemed the horror of his dream had been made real, that he hung as vision only, something incorporeal … Insubstantial. But she squinted, her eyes baffled by the lantern glare, and he realized that she saw nothing for limits that were all her own. Kelmomas shrank into the blackness, slipped about the corner.

“Drafts,” Mother explained absently.

 

 

So. Look at that, upthread we have Kelmomas observe the WLW "But what was more remarkable still was the degree to which the man went unnoticed, how he would sometimes tarry in one spot, unseen," and then we end with Kelmomas performing PRECISELY this exact trick, his mother is unable to see him.

Answer, Kelmomas is the vessel of Ajokli, just as WLW is a vessel of Yatwer. and he can achieve the same things. It doesn't matter if he walks the pure beam of WLW's soul or not, we are supposed to understand that long before the climax of the book that Kelmomas is the same thing as the WLW.

Quote

With every breath he hewed nearer oblivion, face numb, head thick with recent sobs, his eyes two scratches soothed. Gratitude held him … His own Unerring Grace.

That night he dreamed the same dream of the Narindar. This time the man took two instant strides to stand immediately below the grill, leapt, and skewered his eye.

 

earlier in the chapter, the power of the WLW to kill Maithanet is named as the "UNERRING GRACE" Here kelmomas declares for the reader that he has the same power.

The entire chapter six seems to me to methodically spell out extremely clearly what it is Kelmomas is / is becoming and offers a clear explanation for how he will walk a pure path unseen by WLW, because he is the same as WLW.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Good Stuff. I've been an advocate of Kelmommas as a Narindar of Ajokli before TGO, and TGO only confirmed it in my eyes. However, I never tied together that he was essentially shadowing the WLW and therefore staying in a "blindspot" so to say. You explained nicely, and thanks for your time away from Stranger Things (excellent show, btw).

ETA: it still begs the question why Ajokli wants to aid Kellhus. And further, who exactly Ajokli is. Remember I quoted the books as saying he was referenced by some to be a "companion" to the Gods. 

[.H.]

9 hours ago, lokisnow said:

The entire chapter six seems to me to methodically spell out extremely clearly what it is Kelmomas is / is becoming and offers a clear explanation for how he will walk a pure path unseen by WLW, because he is the same as WLW.

I definitely see this as very plausible.  Also, since Ajolki is a god of deception, wouldn't it make some sense that his agent would be both an agent of deceit and deceived himself?

3 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Good Stuff. I've been an advocate of Kelmommas as a Narindar of Ajokli before TGO, and TGO only confirmed it in my eyes. However, I never tied together that he was essentially shadowing the WLW and therefore staying in a "blindspot" so to say. You explained nicely, and thanks for your time away from Stranger Things (excellent show, btw).

I agree, I think that analysis is pretty spot on.

3 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

ETA: it still begs the question why Ajokli wants to aid Kellhus. And further, who exactly Ajokli is. Remember I quoted the books as saying he was referenced by some to be a "companion" to the Gods. 

But also Ajolki is, in the same sentence, "sometimes as a mischievous companion of the Gods, other times as a cruel or malicious competitor."

Perhaps he sees Kellhus' "war with the god" as a way to advance his own position?

[Kalbear]

Pragmatically, why wouldn't Ajokli want to help Kellhus? 

Assume: the gods save Ajokli cannot perceive the No-God and also assume that it does not exist, because they are confident in their awareness of everything between their creation and eschaton. 

Assume: Ajokli also cannot see the No-God, but trusts that it exists. 

Assume: Ajokli believes the No-God means the death of the Gods, including himself. 

Hypothesis: Kellhus is attempting to stop the No-God, and Ajokli knows this, and will thus help him.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Pragmatically, why wouldn't Ajokli want to help Kellhus? 

Assume: the gods save Ajokli cannot perceive the No-God and also assume that it does not exist, because they are confident in their awareness of everything between their creation and eschaton. 

Assume: Ajokli also cannot see the No-God, but trusts that it exists. 

Assume: Ajokli believes the No-God means the death of the Gods, including himself. 

Hypothesis: Kellhus is attempting to stop the No-God, and Ajokli knows this, and will thus help him.

Ahh, very pragmatic, indeed. I always want it to be more, and it usually isnt. That explanation is simple and probably, most likely.

[lokisnow]

Yatwer is named as "the fertility principle" by the nonmen, ajokli is functionally above named "the malice principle " 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

2 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Yatwer is named as "the fertility principle" by the nonmen, ajokli is functionally above named "the malice principle " 

And I asked Bakker, "If the Nonmwn call Yatwer The Fertility Principle, what "principle" would they call Ajokli?". No answer available at this time. He wouldn't come off it. So, methinks, there's more to it. That's what sprung me to look up all I could on Ajokli.

ETA: I am a liar. I asked about the goddess that represents the darkness that comes before. (Forget her name) Still, would love to know what principles the Nonmen give the other gods.

[.H.]

21 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Pragmatically, why wouldn't Ajokli want to help Kellhus? 

Assume: the gods save Ajokli cannot perceive the No-God and also assume that it does not exist, because they are confident in their awareness of everything between their creation and eschaton. 

Assume: Ajokli also cannot see the No-God, but trusts that it exists. 

Assume: Ajokli believes the No-God means the death of the Gods, including himself. 

Hypothesis: Kellhus is attempting to stop the No-God, and Ajokli knows this, and will thus help him.

The only confounding variable I can think of is the Voice telling Kellhus that the war is with "the god."

I don't think it's a simple as just averting the No-God's resurrection, although that might be (probably is) a part of it.

[marwyn]

The reddit AMA just went up one hour ago: link here