Bakker XLVII: Eär-War - A Nomen of Onomatopoeic Omen

[Kalbear]

21 minutes ago, Damelon said:

Thanks for that link, his philosophical blog entries are usually way above my pay-grade. However, that exchange in the comments:

Bakker respectfully, and clearly takes that anti-semitic commenter down. Good to see Bakker use his formidable mind in this manner.

It doesn't seem like he did to me, but so it goes. 

It is awesome to see the Archie Bunker theory made explicitly manifest. 

[Darth Richard II]

7 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Sometimes I feel like you need a PHD in philosophy to follow the dude's blog. I just scan it for TSA related stuff.

You do. :/

[kuenjato]

4 hours ago, Hello World said:

Is it? I thought that cover was some sort of April's fool joke. 

No, it's been up on Amazon for a while, following the usual couple place-holders.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

12 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Sometimes I feel like you need a PHD in philosophy to follow the dude's blog. I just scan it for TSA related stuff.

Don't worry - I have one, and there's plenty of stuff I can well, analyse, but still don't find easy fully engaging with (not an expert on recent developments in philosophy of mind, mind you).

[Callan S.]

7 hours ago, Damelon said:

Bakker respectfully, and clearly takes that anti-semitic commenter down. Good to see Bakker use his formidable mind in this manner.

Well, tries to redirect his anxiety. It was good!

[Darth Richard II]

8 hours ago, Hello World said:

Is it? I thought that cover was some sort of April's fool joke. 

No, thats what they look like :/

[Calibandar]

17 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I can't believe that's the actual cover. It's like Overlook is deliberately trying to repel people: "herein you will find only ugliness and despair!" 

It is hard to believe, but yes, Overlook did indeed think that the cover for the long anticipated Unholy Consult should be a guy who looks like he's taking a dump. Fantastic.

[Callan S.]

I'd assumed it was Celmomas, during his death and prophesy moment, when his expression of joy at his seeds eventual return starts to break as he begins to see what Kellhus is doing.

I just prefer the painted look rather than the photorealistic look (I think the last few books have had someone photographed for the image, unless I'm wrong. I prefer a painting, for various fantasy type reasons)

[Happy Ent]

19 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I can't believe that's the actual cover. It's like Overlook is deliberately trying to repel people: "herein you will find only ugliness and despair!" 

A Series of Unfortunate Events had a good theme song in that vein. Second Apocalypse just needs and adorable baby and it would be a hit.  

Look away, look away

Look away, look away

These books will wreck your evening

Your whole life and your day

Every single point-of-view is nothing but dismay

So look away, look away, look away

The Holy War departs and is seduced by someone awful

who finds and kills his dad, then builds an empire that’s quite lawful, 

and death comes swirling down, the Great Ordeal needs Him to lead it. 

But how a decent person like yourself would even want to read it

Just look away, look away, look away

There's nothing but horror and degradation on the way

Ask any stable person "should I read?" and they will say

Look away

[BigFatCoward]

Haven't read the rest of the thread as only half way through first book, but basically, when does something happen?

Also is it just me are the minor characters totally interchangeable.

 

edit, ignore this comment, i have no idea how but this was supposed to go in the Tad Willams thread.  

[Gronzag]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Haven't read the rest of the thread as only half way through first book, but basically, when does something happen?

Be warned though, the first 3 books are set during the Holy War. Meaning The Thousandfold Thought ends with the end of the Holy War.

[Happy Ent]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Haven't read the rest of the thread as only half way through first book, but basically, when does something happen?

Even ultrafans like me didn’t connect with the first 200 pages. On a re-read, these parts are amazing. But you need to persevere until “A School, Bala!” (VI), when it gets exciting, and “The Steppe is trackless, eh?”  (XII), when it gets unique.

[kuenjato]

26 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

Even ultrafans like me didn’t connect with the first 200 pages. On a re-read, these parts are amazing. But you need to persevere until “A School, Bala!” (VI), when it gets exciting, and “The Steppe is trackless, eh?”  (XII), when it gets unique.

This ^ .. Even Bakker bemoans this opening difficulty.  I was hooked from the prologue but it wasn't until the Cnauir section that I became really invested. 

[unJon]

20 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

So, the scene when Mimara looks at Cnaiur with the Eye, was it implying that he would become a Ciphrang upon his eventual death, or am I way off?

Yeah that was my take also. I think we may see more along these lines in TUC because Bakker said we aren't done with Kosoter yet. 

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Do you think that was what Inrilatas was going for by heaping damnation upon himself? A leg up on the food-chain in Hell?

Don't think so. Being extra damned doesn't seem to give you any extra power, though perhaps containing other people's souls via swazond does. Psatma isn't going to be the handmaiden of Yatwer because of how horrible she is, but because Yatwer appreciates her.

And it's very unclear whether or not the Gods are upjumped Ciphrang or if they're alien parasites. I think the latter is far more interesting. 

[profgrape]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Don't think so. Being extra damned doesn't seem to give you any extra power, though perhaps containing other people's souls via swazond does. Psatma isn't going to be the handmaiden of Yatwer because of how horrible she is, but because Yatwer appreciates her.

And it's very unclear whether or not the Gods are upjumped Ciphrang or if they're alien parasites. I think the latter is far more interesting. 

The "extra-damned" part has bothered me since TGO.  There's clearly something special about certain souls -- Cnaiur and Kosoter being notable examples.  But if becoming a living Ciphrang was just a matter of being particularly horrible, why would the Consult need the No-God at all?

 

[LuckyCharms]

MG's comment about how a reread of TTT would be the most important before getting into TUC has got me trying to accumulate an itinerary of several pertinent hanging threads.

Kellhus communing with the spirit of Seswatha after hypnotizing Achamian; then not revealing whatever they talked about.

Kellhus telling Aurang how the No-God is going to claim this world and is going to return to claim him. My read on this was always that Kellhus was lying just to scare the shit out of Aurang, but it's probably true in typical Bakkerian reversal.

Skin-spy with a soul. This has always struck me as the most significant. I hope this isn't just an ad hoc way to handwave how the Consult was spying on the Mandate. Using the tekne to create an ensouled being seems to profound to just be brushed aside.

Kellhus/Moe conversation is just a kluge of stuff that we've been over a thousand times but still reeks of foreshadowing and developments that have yet to unfold.

The No-God talking to Achamian directly on the Plains of Mengedda in the redux dream.

 

[LuckyCharms]

4 minutes ago, profgrape said:

The "extra-damned" part has bothered me since TGO.  There's clearly something special about certain souls -- Cnaiur and Kosoter being notable examples.  But if becoming a living Ciphrang was just a matter of being particularly horrible, why would the Consult need the No-God at all?

 

This sounds like the deal with the Kahiht, the "Great Souls" or "World-Souls" or whatever. Souls that are greater shards of the God. As Mimara says that Cnaiur's soul is no mere splinter but a mighty shard. Or Eskeles is telling Sorweel when he breaks his Russian nesting doll/vase thing, everyone's soul is a splinter of the God, but some splinters are obviously larger/stronger.

I have long suspected that Nau-Cayuti was one such soul, which is perhaps why he was integral to firing off the engine of the No-God, presumably. Perhaps another is needed this time.

[Kalbear]

Quote

Skin-spy with a soul. This has always struck me as the most significant. I hope this isn't just an ad hoc way to handwave how the Consult was spying on the Mandate. Using the tekne to create an ensouled being seems to profound to just be brushed aside.

This is another theory of mine that I really want to be true, which is that the Inchoroi had the capability to create ensouled creatures any time they wanted (as they could also graft the abilities of the Few) but chose to because it was the most horrible thing they could possibly think of to do. Basically, giving any of their creations a soul would condemn them to everlasting torture, and they'd be knowingly doing that. So they chose not to do it not because they couldn't, or that it was just an accidental lucky break, but because it offended them morally to do so. 

This falls well with what we found out recently about how the Nonmen plague was just an accident, and they were genuinely attempting to give the nonmen immortality and fucked it up. They didn't want the nonmen and women to die, and genuinely wanted them to be allies, but could not stop the damnation - so they did the next best thing, which was to make them live forever. This is about as holy a thing as they can possibly do in their eyes.

[unJon]

1 hour ago, LuckyCharms said:

MG's comment about how a reread of TTT would be the most important before getting into TUC has got me trying to accumulate an itinerary of several pertinent hanging threads.

Kellhus communing with the spirit of Seswatha after hypnotizing Achamian; then not revealing whatever they talked about.

Kellhus telling Aurang how the No-God is going to claim this world and is going to return to claim him. My read on this was always that Kellhus was lying just to scare the shit out of Aurang, but it's probably true in typical Bakkerian reversal.

Skin-spy with a soul. This has always struck me as the most significant. I hope this isn't just an ad hoc way to handwave how the Consult was spying on the Mandate. Using the tekne to create an ensouled being seems to profound to just be brushed aside.

Kellhus/Moe conversation is just a kluge of stuff that we've been over a thousand times but still reeks of foreshadowing and developments that have yet to unfold.

The No-God talking to Achamian directly on the Plains of Mengedda in the redux dream.

 

The Kel/Moe conversation (both lie becoming truth and the falsity of the Freat Ordeal), Akka's last dream where the Heron Spear isn't fired and Kel telling Akka he will how next time they see each other. All of those feel like foreshadowing of TUC.