Bakker XLVII: Eär-War - A Nomen of Onomatopoeic Omen

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

7 minutes ago, bakkerfans said:

@ ANATURINBOR - RESPONDED!

@ LOKISNOW - YES!  THERE WILL BE ARCS BUT I DON’T YET KNOW WHEN

@ DR2 - I HAVEN’T GOT TO THE BLACK SEMEN PART IN BOTW YET—NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO MEETING GANONDORF I GUESS

@ MSJ - MSJ CARES! <3  I’VE GOT THIS HORRIBLE

D I V O R C E

THING GOING ON SO I AM AS INCONSISTENT AS I AM

Aye, divorce...sorry to hear that.

[Kalbear]

21 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Aye, divorce...sorry to hear that.

Yeah, that sucks. Somehow this'll be blamed on us too.

[Corvinus85]

Finally started reading the Great Ordeal. I'm not that far into it.

I have to ask: the men of the Ordeal start eating Sranc. What are their horses eating? The earth is picked clean by the Horde, and sure the horses they brought are the hardy steppe type for the most part, but still they need some kind of fodder. Did the Ordeal come amply provisioned with the kind of fodder those horses need, and they sacrificed on human provisions knowing that eventually they would eat Sranc?

Also, what do readers here imagine the Nail of Heaven is? Has Bakker said anything about it? I imagine it's a galaxy that is to close enough to provide some light light the a moon would at night, and position is such a way that its center looks like a nail from Earwa.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, that sucks. Somehow this'll be blamed on us too.

1. That's ass dude sorry.

2. Nah I'm too busy sabotaging Bakkers career to have time to mess with the fans.

[Callan S.]

11 hours ago, redeagl said:

So I have a theory about Inri Sejenus.Sorry if someone thought of this one before.

1- The apocalypse ended in Mengedda 2055, Sejenus was born in Shimeh 2059.

2- The Apocalypse was, of course quite a big event yet Sejenus' teachings does not make a single mention of it.... Guess who will benefit out of the world forgetting the Apocalypse? 

3- Also his teachings are also based off the Tusk, which we know that it is written by A&A

Which leads us to the conclusion that Sejenus was somehow in league with The Consult. Just a theory, it is probably wrong but I thought it was interesting to share.

Edit: just saw a post from @Michael Seswatha Jordan that reminded me of something. The Inrithi says that whores are damned yet Mimara isn't... So unless the JE always sees it's holder as holy, that means that Inrithism is false. Unlike Angeshraël who was deceived,Fane probably wanted revenge from the people who banished him after he failed to be the new Inri Sejenis, Seja also must also have had ulterior motives to preach a religion He knew to be false.

Interesting theory on a historical figure! Maybe Senjenus was a skin spy? But Mimara was sold into sex slavery - it may be that you have to decide to being a sex worker, not be forced to be one. Because totes everyone is free to choose, utterly, not at all influenced by lack of resources, free will ya'll! And totally eternal torture is appropriate because IDK.

[Callan S.]

3 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I have to ask: the men of the Ordeal start eating Sranc. What are their horses eating?

Damn good question - might be an oversight! Though I'll overlook it for the story

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, that sucks. Somehow this'll be blamed on us too.

F'n amazing

[Darth Richard II]

Well I know when I see someone buying Bakker books at B&N I snatch it out of there hands then slap them. I've also been redirecting shipments of his books to a small abandoned outpost in the artic.

[unJon]

 

Quote

 

3- Also his teachings are also based off the Tusk, which we know that it is written by A&A

 

I think Scott has said that the Tusk was actually an amalgamation of pre-existing stories and teachings. The only thing the Inchoroi changed was adding the command to kill the Nonmen. Otherwise the rest of it is legit.

Quote

I don't think the Nail looks like a Nail. Rather it's called the Nail because the heavens rotate around it as if it were the Nail around which they spin. In other words, the North Star. It's super bright and appeared a few years before the Ark. People have therefore speculated it's some sort of wormhole or Inchoroi Mothership that brought them to Earwa. 

Negative. The Nail has been around forever, but it flared three years before the Inchoroi arrived. It may be a standing stargate of some kind, or the arrival of the Ark may have caused the flaring through some kind of spatial distortion.

 

Quote

 

Opening the can of worms, wasn't it the IF that made the Inchoroi gather and sort of start their own Holy War ? I believe in the glossary it is mentioned that" less than one in ten Inchoroi survived" the haphazard landing into Eärwa. And considering that they have conquered whole "planets" before...

 

It's worth noting that whilst this is true, the Ark is also called a "mother" in a couple of moments, specifically referring to the ship before it "died". So the ship, which is definitely biological, had a crew but it may have also had a way of creating new Inchoroi to replace their losses in battle. Then at some point the ship died (or its biological processes became suspended) and it lost the ability to create new Inchoroi or Tekne artifacts. There's even a bit when Seswatha is in the Ark musing on the ship's ribs or bones, and noting where it looks like skin should have covered parts of the walls or floor but now there's nothing.

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, unJon said:

I don't think the Nail looks like a Nail. Rather it's called the Nail because the heavens rotate around it as if it were the Nail around which they spin. In other words, the North Star. It's super bright and appeared a few years before the Ark. People have therefore speculated it's some sort of wormhole or Inchoroi Mothership that brought them to Earwa. 

I missed that part. Yeah, I like this theory.

[redeagl]

48 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well I know when I see someone buying Bakker books at B&N I snatch it out of there hands then slap them. I've also been redirecting shipments of his books to a small abandoned outpost in the artic.

That's 100% false. There are no Bakker books in B&N

[redeagl]

11 hours ago, .H. said:

Well, I am probably chiefly guilty of this, because the idea of the IF just intrigues me, so I tend to drag things into it/it into other things.

Well, I don't think it's nothing, but I don't think it will be something major.  Somewhere in between, where it is simply a part of what we learn about the Inchoroi/Consult.  I think the the Inverse Fire parts of The False Sun are the "spoilers" we were warned about, since really nothing of the rest of the story is at all spoilerish.

There certainly was a break, post Womb-Plauge, not just because all the women died, but because they went from lifespans that nearly outstripped their memory to ones that far outrunning it.  I attempted to discuss this, but like usual I think I was just rambling around some quotes.

Anecodtal evidence would seem, to me, to point to the fact that they did worry about it.  A great deal.  The wright-in-the-mountain tells Cleric:

I don't really think this was something that was caused by the Inverse Fire.  Also:

Again, I have my doubts that such thoughts are Inverse Fire created.

Oinaral doesn't seem to have ever seen the Inverse Fire, so his feelings on this are probably not driven by it.  Rather, I think he speaks of the "old way" of thinking, how the way out of damnation is through oblivion.

So, to return to the question:

Well, the Inverse Fire probably predates Arkfall by a very long time, if not predating the Inchoroi themselves (which is a whole different can of worms).  As such, I don't know that they Inverse Fire is a necessity, but rather a mixture of a fact and a tool.  The Inverse Fire is proof that damnation is real, that it is imminent, and that it is horrific.

I believe it was @profgrape who had the idea that the IF might even be, for Nonmen, a method of remembering.  Expanding on that, if the soul is a ledger, then perhaps the IF shows you the toll of that litany in plain sight.  In this way, it can keep you focused, a paining reminder of what awaits you.  Like the Wright says, "how could they have forgotten?" the Inverse Fire is a view into their own souls, one not so easily forgotten.

Opening the can of worms, wasn't it the IF that made the Inchoroi gather and sort of start their own Holy War ? I believe in the glossary it is mentioned that" less than one in ten Inchoroi survived" the haphazard landing into Eärwa. And considering that they have conquered whole "planets" before...

@Callan S. Yes you could be right, but didn't Mim kill the owner of the brothel ? I find the "fact" that Mimara isn't damned weird. She was no Cnaiür but no Sejenus either.Pretty sure she committed damnable acts. She herself remarks on that,wondering.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, redeagl said:

Opening the can of worms, wasn't it the IF that made the Inchoroi gather an sort of start their Holy War ? I believe in the glossary it is mentioned that" less than one in ten Inchoroi survived" the haphazard landing into Eärwa. And considering that they have conquered whole "planets" before..

We don't know. That's a theory - and a reasonable one - but we simply have no idea. 

[Gronzag]

44 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

Interesting theory on a historical figure! Maybe Senjenus was a skin spy?

Skin spies were 'invented' only few centuries ago. That's when the open skirmishes between the Consult and the Mandate stopped and people began believing that the former was gone for good. 

Which leaves me wondering, how did C and M fight each other, given the vast distance between their strongholds. Did the Old Names use synthesee to randomly attack Mandate schoolmen?

[lokisnow]

1 hour ago, Callan S. said:

 Because totes everyone is free to choose, utterly, not at all influenced by lack of resources, free will ya'll! And totally eternal torture is appropriate because IDK.

This one is easy. There is no free will. There is no choice. Humans are designed to all be inherently damned because damnation is food.

its like how teocinte has been created into corn for maximum tastiness. Humans have been created to be sinners for maximum tastiness.

thats probably why the gods are okay with the dunyain over the millennia, they're even tastier and more damned than anyone else because they've bred themselves to be even more full of juicy damnation than any other human, plump juicy sweet corn. Om Nom nom.

appropriate doesn't even enter into whether or not eternal damnation is fair. Sweet corn is fucking delicious, sorry it's not fair and appropriate to the harvested corn, I keep forgetting to anthropomophize it and consider how it feels about being harvested.

***

related, consider what we know about how the gods can't stretch themselves across everything at once, their attention is finite even if their perception seems omniscient: by undertaking the great ordeal kellhus is laying out a harvest, a great feast, that will necessarily concentrate the attention of the gods--thus their appearance and constant presence in the second trilogy--this means their attention is being deliberately herded--the path they traverse is conditioned.

 

***

 

my condolences MG.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, redeagl said:

That's 100% false. There are no Bakker books in B&N

Hey both of mine here put The Great Ordeal out like 2 weeks early! Although one of the managers is a huge Bakker/Erikson guy so that probably helps.

[profgrape]

51 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

related, consider what we know about how the gods can't stretch themselves across everything at once, their attention is finite even if their perception seems omniscient: by undertaking the great ordeal kellhus is laying out a harvest, a great feast, that will necessarily concentrate the attention of the gods--thus their appearance and constant presence in the second trilogy--this means their attention is being deliberately herded--the path they traverse is conditioned.

Love this, @lokisnow.  We've had a number of theories pop up about what TGO was really after (it's Kellhus so it can't just be an army).  But the idea that the whole thing is designed to condition the ground for the Gods?  Brilliant!

[lokisnow]

Sejenus appearance timing plays into the idea that "the soul that encounters the no god passes no further".

so the gods don't notice the no god or any of the events of the apocalypse they don't even know that they are missing anything since the eschaton is literally outside their scope. It's the opposite of the great ordeal, the no god took the entire harvest and thus the gods did not allocate any attention to this time period and perhaps went hungry (and Bayed like wolves at a silent gate.?)

regardless with the destruction of the no god the gods were suddenly aware of a reduction in worship and attention and they actually were responsible for sejenus as felt the sudden reduction of harvest meant the fields merited more attention so that yields would be stable or growing rather than collapsing.

[Callan S.]

9 hours ago, redeagl said:

Yes you could be right, but didn't Mim kill the owner of the brothel ? I find the "fact" that Mimara isn't damned weird. She was no Cnaiür but no Sejenus either.Pretty sure she committed damnable acts. She herself remarks on that,wondering.

In the judging eye (which conveniently works in reflections), her hair is pentinent short. That man was a very bad man, apparently! Ciphrang just don't let you have long hair in that case.

The game master said it was still lawful good, okay!!!

Edit: Now I want a gif of the dungeon master from the D&D cartoon saying "You're Damned"

5 hours ago, Triskan said:

Also, the idea that he ascended to the Nail of Heaven has been speculated that he was beamed up to the Inchie mother ship although as delicious as that theory is

is nothing. Hush for the beauty...

[Pino Proxy]

lmao can someone explain to me what the Thousandfold Thought is? I thought it was a sequence of lies made truth (perceived as truth at least), built upon over time to be the ultimate driving force for men (aka religion like Fanimry and Inrithism). But the line "when the first of the thought came to me, I was quite unprepared" doesn't gel with that some much. Also I thought this whole thing would be evident to Dûnyain instantly, not something to be grasped. Also the line about TTT outliving the soul of its incubation and casting it aside (Moëghus). So...I guess I'm not getting it.

No spoilers beyond this book please (TTT).

[.H.]

19 minutes ago, Pino Proxy said:

lmao can someone explain to me what the Thousandfold Thought is? I thought it was a sequence of lies made truth (perceived as truth at least), built upon over time to be the ultimate driving force for men (aka religion like Fanimry and Inrithism). But the line "when the first of the thought came to me, I was quite unprepared" doesn't gel with that some much. Also I thought this whole thing would be evident to Dûnyain instantly, not something to be grasped. Also the line about TTT outliving the soul of its incubation and casting it aside (Moëghus). So...I guess I'm not getting it.

No spoilers beyond this book please (TTT).

Looks to me like you are doing the best you can with what little information you have as of TTT.

3 books later we are still debating it too, so it's open to interpretation, but some have theories on it.