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Bakker XLVII: Eär-War - A Nomen of Onomatopoeic Omen


.H.

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12 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Kellhus is totally wrong. This is my personal favorite - that Kellhus being so completely convinced of his surety that everything he's done save perhaps attempt to save his family has been utterly wrong, and he ends up blowing things in an interesting yet completely irresponsible way. Mimara and Koringhus are most right and are the true key to salvation of the world. Kellhus ends up being the No-God or responsible for its return, and the prophecy that the Consult are defending is basically ensuring that Kellhus creates the No-God, becoming a soul that is not watched and is self-moving without being connected to the cycle of watcher/watched.

I rate this as plausible, although the conversation from earlier has me feeling it's possibility is lower than I previously thought, because it does seem that Kellhus has an inkling of how emotion, or passion, is an important part of the puzzle.  Now, whether or not what Klelhus feels is "real love" or not is a whole different can of worms and so asking if that still gets the job done is valid.  I think there has to be some element of Kellhus' plan failing, or else, what are we reading?  Just an account of Kellhus' ascendance?  I agree this wouldn't be too interesting.

12 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Kellhus is totally right. We are using Mimara and Koringhus and Sorweel and Kelmomas as little aspects of his rightness, but only he has all the answers, and he'll happily explain it all in a 50-page infodump. The Great Ordeal ends up wiping out the Consult but not before they unleash the No-God. Akka kneels before Kellhus after being shown how awesome he is. This is what I expect to happen, but will dislike it as it ignores a lot about the TWP/TTT stuff.

Again, this is plausible, but I don't feel like this is the way it will go.  I think there are things that can go wrong.  Little Kel would seem to be an example of this, so perhaps there is more along those lines.  Also, if Kellhus simply just does whatever, where does this leave Sorweel?  As much as I don't particularly care for him as a character, I think he is a really important part of the puzzle and will be a major factor in how it ends.

12 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Kellhus is a lying liar.  He's been working with the Consult this whole time. He knows that the No-God has to be brought into existence. Mimara is the only hope - to be able to gaze on something that cannot be seen. And doing that breaks the final cycle of watcher-watched. The Consult is totally in the right and the Great Ordeal was a sham. Choose consult! I like this one a bit better, but not as much as #1, because, well, a bunch of rape demons as the heroes isn't exactly a fun story.

I am definitely in on this, in some ways.  Kellhus is a liar, in the sense that the Thought is a lie, made real.  A la, the Algorithic Eärwa, Kellhus and the Thought are "memes with real-life consequences" and so is the Inverse Fire.  The difference is that the IF is true, in that damnation is real, and the Thought is false, in that damnation isn't yet rewritten.  Of course, that distinction doesn't really matter though.  The Consult is "right" but their methods are horrific.  Kellhus is actually looking to achieve something similar via different methods.

So, my synthesis of these is basically that the Consult is right, the Inverse Fire tells the truth, but like Wutteät so lovingly tells us, "is not truth infinite?"  There is always something deeper, further.  So, Kellhus imagines he sees this truth behind the truth.  And maybe he really does.  The Voice knows more than Kellhus, whether or not it is actually Kellhus, and it tells us that the war, the real war, is with the gods.  The Consult had the audacity to imagine they could close the world to save their souls.  Kellhus as the further audacity to think he can kill or supplant the gods to save their souls.

I think a death of meaning is still key.  The Consult don't look to change meaning, just make the consequences of it go away.  Perhaps Kellhus aims at a revision.  Bakker has mention Kellhus as an illusion of "modernity" and to me that would seem to be humanism, so meaning for humans, by humans.  My hunch for a while has been that perhaps Kellhus ascends to be the Solitary God, so maybe that is related too.  A false prophet until he makes himself not.  As the God, he can rewrite the Cubit and tailor damnation from there.

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Lol - MG, your timing is unerring, as always.

Kalbear, Darth, I spoke with most of the ARC readers one on one or in groups as well as many of the contemporary regulars at SA - I suppose maybe that's why you don't find any of them here complaining along with you about two year old book drama. If you're ever actually interested in the story, let me know, I've invited you to speak with me or join SA, many, many times.

Clearly, my using the word 'troll' once, in hyperbole, stuck more than all my other words combined - just as on an other occasion here, using 'harass' rather than 'engage' was a hanging offense. I know it's unbelievable but all my words then apply to reading TGO - because I actually was satisfied with TGO as the end of TAE. You know... accepting the story for what it is rather than what I want it to be.

And thankfully, as I have little patience left in life, this time around it's all on MG, as I'm not bakkerfans. Lol - poor guy is just trying to keep interest going.

8 hours ago, lokisnow said:

i think the problem is you have to divorce your eagerness to gloat from the much harder and much less fun task of marketing and promotion. A good rule, if it makes YOU gleeful it's probably just about you gloating and basking in the sensation and attention. Which means the promotion is not really doing much for the book since it's actually about you." :)

Lmao. Oh man.

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@ lockisnow - Are you locke over at tsa?  If so, you must know that I am a big fan of your posts!

 

I have not intended any harm towards you or any of the other readers of Bakker’s books.  Truly, I do not see myself as trolling, but as trying to playfully stoke up interest before the book comes out.  I have a lot of personal failings, so screwing up something like this comes as no surprise to me.  The prankster in me would like to increase others’ delight and not the opposite.

 

I will go back and see how review how Wert promoted TGO and I like your idea about the aphorisms!  I’m not entirely sure what I’ll be doing between now and TUC release.  I’m only a volunteer with a limited amount of time to devote to this.  Eck, I don’t even like the teaser format, but I’m a near 40-something with an iPhone.  I get frustrated that I get so easily frustrated.

 

I apologize.  I did not mean to signal “Nah! Nah! I have TUC and you don’!”  I meant to say, “Wow, this book is great!  I think you are going to like it!  I would share it with you now if I could!”

 

@ Callan S. - I will try to do better!  I am open to all suggestions!  Truly!  Please!  I’m stupid!  Help!

 

@ Madness - LET’S TOUCH PENISES

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3 minutes ago, bakkerfans said:

@ lockisnow - Are you locke over at tsa?  If so, you must know that I am a big fan of your posts!

 

I have not intended any harm towards you or any of the other readers of Bakker’s books.  Truly, I do not see myself as trolling, but as trying to playfully stoke up interest before the book comes out.  I have a lot of personal failings, so screwing up something like this comes as no surprise to me.  The prankster in me would like to increase others’ delight and not the opposite.

 

I will go back and see how review how Wert promoted TGO and I like your idea about the aphorisms!  I’m not entirely sure what I’ll be doing between now and TUC release.  I’m only a volunteer with a limited amount of time to devote to this.  Eck, I don’t even like the teaser format, but I’m a near 40-something with an iPhone.  I get frustrated that I get so easily frustrated.

 

I apologize.  I did not mean to signal “Nah! Nah! I have TUC and you don’!”  I meant to say, “Wow, this book is great!  I think you are going to like it!  I would share it with you now if I could!”

 

@ Callan S. - I will try to do better!  I am open to all suggestions!  Truly!  Please!  I’m stupid!  Help!

 

@ Madness - LET’S TOUCH PENISES

@bakkerfans, HI MG, you crazy SOB. That's what I was trying to convey in my post. That's your not evil, actually a very cool dude and all you was doing was trying to keep interest, or drum up interest for TUC. When, I seen the teasers and how vague they were, I knew 2 things. You did not want to spoil anyone, and that you was having a hard time not spoiling anyone with the teasers. I appreciate your dedication to the series, i do. Now, just go on ahead and spoiled the fuck out of us. I kid, I kid.

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Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

@bakkerfans, HI MG, you crazy SOB. That's what I was trying to convey in my post. That's your not evil, actually a very cool dude and all you was doing was trying to keep interest, or drum up interest for TUC. When, I seen the teasers and how vague they were, I knew 2 things. You did not want to spoil anyone, and that you was having a hard time not spoiling anyone with the teasers. I appreciate your dedication to the series, i do. Now, just go on ahead and spoiled the fuck out of us. I kid, I kid.

I STILL WANT TO PARTY WITH YOU!

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1 minute ago, bakkerfans said:

I STILL WANT TO PARTY WITH YOU!

Me too brother! I'd say this, I don't think you're lying or trolling with any of your "teasers". I'd bet they're all legit, we will discover something on the other side of the Yimalata Mountains and we'll find out who the Torturer's son is. It's you didn't want to give anything away that would truly spoil us. I don't see what anyone is getting upset about though, because as @Kalbear, clearly figured out, we have nothing prior to TUC to have any clue whatsoever would be on the other side of the Yimalati mountains. So, in my book, no harm, no foul. Just trying to do some sort of promotion for Bakker, which no one else is willing to do.

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4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Me too brother! I'd say this, I don't think you're lying or trolling with any of your "teasers". I'd bet they're all legit, we will discover something on the other side of the Yimalata Mountains and we'll find out who the Torturer's son is. It's you didn't want to give anything away that would truly spoil us. I don't see what anyone is getting upset about though, because as @Kalbear, clearly figured out, we have nothing prior to TUC to have any clue whatsoever would be on the other side of the Yimalati mountains. So, in my book, no harm, no foul. Just trying to do some sort of promotion for Bakker, which no one else is willing to do.

I have a list of crossed out teasers because some were spoilers and others were so inane, they read like "Akka cast a spell."

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If I need to be banned, I understand.  I would still welcome suggestions for the future.  Since Bakker seems permanently disinclined to self-promote, there may continue to be fans who are interested in promoting his stuff (me or someone else).  Matching content to audience would be ideal whoever is doing it.

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2 hours ago, bakkerfans said:

If I need to be banned, I understand.  I would still welcome suggestions for the future.  Since Bakker seems permanently disinclined to self-promote, there may continue to be fans who are interested in promoting his stuff (me or someone else).  Matching content to audience would be ideal whoever is doing it.

I don't think you need to be banned, though I do think that you should post your tweets in spoiler for anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled. 

I thought @lokisnow had good advice for what works and doesn't as far as teasers go, but I'll add my two cents. Define what you're trying to do with your information first. Are you attempting to drum up excitement for the books? Are you attempting to create discussion? Are you attempting to get more people to buy the books? 

Next - who is your target audience - generic fantasy fans? Big fans of the series? Fans of the series that might have fallen by the wayside?

Figure those things out first. Be deliberate and determine your intent. That will then determine what you should do next.

If, for instance, you're looking to excite big fans of the series - people like yourself - revealing something like the location of one of the chapters that hasn't been seen would probably be a big deal (though spoilery). Or you could reveal how many chapters each PoV character gets. Or heck, reveal how many PoV characters there are. Something GRRM did in the past was say things like how many weddings and funerals there were in this book (for SOS this was pretty fun, actually) and name some of the minor characters that showed up along with their heraldry. But he was more doing a back and forth with people, so that might not work for what you're doing.

If you're looking to excite general fans of the series, you might start with giving an expanded synopsis - saying where the story goes, hinting at how it ties in with prior books and the actual Thousandfold Thought, declaring that the ultimate fate of the Dunyain experiment is revealed, etc. Bring up issues that have been around since the beginning - damnation, the gods, the holy war, the Consult/Mandate war, the First Apocalypse - that sort of thing. 

If you're just going for big bombastic general fantasy people, start out with some big highlights - state things like this book has battle sequences that make Minas Tirith look tame, or how this has wars of thousands of wizards on either side fighting hundreds of thousands of crazed troops. Mention how empires will fall and new ones will rise, of spells that obliterate time and space, of gods fighting proxy and real battles with genetically modified people, of the last of a dying race fights for memory and love. 

For me, when I gave some hints on TGO, what I went for was giving the people of this forum some points to look back at, and I specifically did so by pointing out in previous books some things that were especially relevant for discussion. I didn't say why they were relevant, only that they were relevant. 

I can't obviously answer what you can and cannot say, but hopefully that helps.

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5 hours ago, bakkerfans said:

@ Callan S. - I will try to do better!  I am open to all suggestions!

I was just making a joke summary of the advice given to you by others. The bit about being gleeful had some truth to it in my estimate, but at the same time people seemed to be taking it way seriously. Certainly listen to what is a negative feedback and let it guide your course some, but people tend to try to give a negative feedback and dictate that you are to follow precisely their mindset on it, even though another guy is insisting you follow precisely their mindset uses a different mindset, etc etc - so don't feel complainers get to yoke your rudder, so to speak.

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4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think you need to be banned, though I do think that you should post your tweets in spoiler for anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled. 

I thought @lokisnow had good advice for what works and doesn't as far as teasers go, but I'll add my two cents. Define what you're trying to do with your information first. Are you attempting to drum up excitement for the books? Are you attempting to create discussion? Are you attempting to get more people to buy the books? 

Next - who is your target audience - generic fantasy fans? Big fans of the series? Fans of the series that might have fallen by the wayside?

Figure those things out first. Be deliberate and determine your intent. That will then determine what you should do next.

If, for instance, you're looking to excite big fans of the series - people like yourself - revealing something like the location of one of the chapters that hasn't been seen would probably be a big deal (though spoilery). Or you could reveal how many chapters each PoV character gets. Or heck, reveal how many PoV characters there are. Something GRRM did in the past was say things like how many weddings and funerals there were in this book (for SOS this was pretty fun, actually) and name some of the minor characters that showed up along with their heraldry. But he was more doing a back and forth with people, so that might not work for what you're doing.

If you're looking to excite general fans of the series, you might start with giving an expanded synopsis - saying where the story goes, hinting at how it ties in with prior books and the actual Thousandfold Thought, declaring that the ultimate fate of the Dunyain experiment is revealed, etc. Bring up issues that have been around since the beginning - damnation, the gods, the holy war, the Consult/Mandate war, the First Apocalypse - that sort of thing. 

If you're just going for big bombastic general fantasy people, start out with some big highlights - state things like this book has battle sequences that make Minas Tirith look tame, or how this has wars of thousands of wizards on either side fighting hundreds of thousands of crazed troops. Mention how empires will fall and new ones will rise, of spells that obliterate time and space, of gods fighting proxy and real battles with genetically modified people, of the last of a dying race fights for memory and love. 

For me, when I gave some hints on TGO, what I went for was giving the people of this forum some points to look back at, and I specifically did so by pointing out in previous books some things that were especially relevant for discussion. I didn't say why they were relevant, only that they were relevant. 

I can't obviously answer what you can and cannot say, but hopefully that helps.

I remember you mentioned to "catch up with Saubon a bit" which was a great- gave me something to pay a little extra attention to on reread of previous books without actually spoiling anything.  

yes.... I REMEMBER!

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