How did Cersei get Jamie in the KG

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Cridefea said:

Oh god why do I see only symbols and no words?     Anyway I've read the post from the mobile phone.

Yeah you're right, thank you! that is what I was looking for. So Tywin was really pushing the wedding, it's not a Cersei lie.

I had a terrible time trying to get it to post! Not sure what is going on as I started doing everything normally. Eventually had to redo it in Apple's Pages and copy and paste to get the thing accepted by the board. Sorry, for the problem.

Yeah, the quote makes it clear Tywin is behind the move to get Jaime married.

[Cridefea]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I had a terrible time trying to get it to post! Not sure what is going on as I started doing everything normally. Eventually had to redo it in Apple's Pages and copy and paste to get the thing accepted by the board. Sorry, for the problem.

Yeah, the quote makes it clear Tywin is behind the move to get Jaime married.

 

No problem!! Funny thing it's that I can read it by phone. 

And here the quote that @SFDanny has posted, for those who cannot read it:

 

Tywin to Tyrion (ASoS Tyrion III)

Quote

"I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter."

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

28 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

 

No problem!! Funny thing it's that I can read it by phone. 

And here the quote that @SFDanny has posted, for those who cannot read it:

 

Tywin to Tyrion (ASoS Tyrion III)

 

Thanks for posting the "translation" for us Cridefea!

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thanks for posting the "translation" for us Cridefea!

Cridefea and Lady Blizzardborn, can you read the post with all the symbols in it now? Hopefully Ran's work on it fixed it.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

26 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Cridefea and Lady Blizzardborn, can you read the post with all the symbols in it now? Hopefully Ran's work on it fixed it.

Yes, but Cridefea's quote of it still has all the symbols. This is actually kind of fun.

 

[SFDanny]

33 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes, but Cridefea's quote of it still has all the symbols. This is actually kind of fun.

 

Thanks, normally I talk in symbolic language no one understands but me, but typing in English hasn't been as big as a problem as this!

[Cridefea]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Thanks, normally I talk in symbolic language no one understands but me, but typing in English hasn't been as big as a problem as this!

ahahahaha No, you're not alone. I've even quoted you and translated it! I like foreign languages. I can speak symbols, more than English.

Btw yes I see words in your post now, but I like to keep my quote with shields, gifts, question marks, umbrellas, bicycles etc. I find it a bit eccentric and mysterious. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 3/3/2017 at 2:04 AM, SFDanny said:

I don't for a minute think this plan originated with Cersei, although she thinks it does. Cersei is at court for years with her father and one can be sure Varys had her closely watched and listen to during that time. A slip of a reference by her or some one in her retinue about Joanna having to separate the twins because of their "play" and that would be enough to get Varys going on how to use the incest to his advantage. After all he tells Ned he has known the secret for a long time.

I don't think it likely Cersei sleeps with Aerys, and we certainly don't have any indication yet that is the case. No, Varys gets a friend to lead Cersei to the plan and then helps her with the Inn in which the twins can be together. And, viola, Jaime consents. We know the reasons why both Varys and Aerys want this to work - stopping the marriage of Jaime and Lysa stops the expansion of the STAB bloc to include the Lannisters, it robs Tywin of his heir, and gives Jaime as a hostage to Tywin's good behavior, etc. - and the fourteen to fifteen year old Cersei is the unwitting tool who thinks herself clever that gets their work done for them. 

I think that either this is basically correct, or Cersei went to Varys for help with the Jaime situation and that's exactly how Varys found out about the incest in the first place, and then Varys told Cersei he could get Jaime in the KG yada yada.

[Rachel of Oldstones]

Good question! I'm not going to pretend to know since it has never been explicitly answered. There's 2 potential answers as to why, from two different povs.... Maybe we'll find out in a future book! 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The right word in the right ear , either The White Bull or Rhaella 's . With Gerry Hightower , Barrie Selmy and Harlan Grandison getting old , they were probably always looking for eventual replacements .

[The Twinslayer]

On 2/28/2017 at 3:39 PM, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

not sure if this is serious, but I highly doubt that.

Cersei clearly believes that she orchestrated Jaime's entry in to the Kingsguard.  And she also clearly explains to Sansa in ASOS the ways in which she influences men:  "Tears are not a woman's only weapon.  You've got another between your legs."

It is unlikely that Cersei used tears to convince Aerys to bring Jaime into the Kingsguard.  And we almost never see her use that "weapon" in the books.  The way she encourages men in the books to do her bidding is by sleeping with them.  Why would her m.o. for getting Jaime into the Kingsguard be any different?  

And, if Tywin suspected, that would be a convincing motivation for him to resign as Hand and move Cersei back to the Rock. 

As for Aerys, he seems to have been a rake.  The World Book suggests that he stopped after a time,  but if the author was a propagandist for Tywin, that would explain the suggestion that Aerys stopped before Cersei came along. 

 

[Westerosi Coast Gangster]

18 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Cersei clearly believes that she orchestrated Jaime's entry in to the Kingsguard.  And she also clearly explains to Sansa in ASOS the ways in which she influences men:  "Tears are not a woman's only weapon.  You've got another between your legs."

It is unlikely that Cersei used tears to convince Aerys to bring Jaime into the Kingsguard.  And we almost never see her use that "weapon" in the books.  The way she encourages men in the books to do her bidding is by sleeping with them.  Why would her m.o. for getting Jaime into the Kingsguard be any different?  

And, if Tywin suspected, that would be a convincing motivation for him to resign as Hand and move Cersei back to the Rock. 

As for Aerys, he seems to have been a rake.  The World Book suggests that he stopped after a time,  but if the author was a propagandist for Tywin, that would explain the suggestion that Aerys stopped before Cersei came along. 

 

I'm pretty sure somewhere in the text that it implies the only people Cersei slept with before the Kettleblacks were Robert and Jamie. We know that Jamie has only slept with Cersei. If Cersei had sex with Aerys I think it would have come out.

[The Twinslayer]

2 hours ago, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

I'm pretty sure somewhere in the text that it implies the only people Cersei slept with before the Kettleblacks were Robert and Jamie. We know that Jamie has only slept with Cersei. If Cersei had sex with Aerys I think it would have come out.

She slept with Lancel to get him to kill Robert.  That was after Jaime but before the Kettleblacks.  

[Westerosi Coast Gangster]

10 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

She slept with Lancel to get him to kill Robert.  That was after Jaime but before the Kettleblacks.  

yes, forgot about Lancel and the belly shots.

[SFDanny]

On 3/6/2017 at 9:28 PM, The Twinslayer said:

As for Aerys, he seems to have been a rake.  The World Book suggests that he stopped after a time,  but if the author was a propagandist for Tywin, that would explain the suggestion that Aerys stopped before Cersei came along. 

Yandel is a propagandist for Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen to be sure. How that translates to making Aerys look like he stopped sleeping around is rather dicey. One would think he would make Aerys out to be worse than he was, rather than better. The truth is there is nothing to support Aerys and Cersei had a sexual relationship. What is even more dicey is the idea the fourteen to fifteen year old Cersei controlled Aerys enough to get him to do anything he didn't want to do. What do you think is more likely Cersei as the puppet or the puppet master? Given how bad she is at the game of thrones when she is an adult, one has to wonder how she regressed from a master player who could control the king and his court with just her sly, but ignorant, mind and her young body. I don't believe it.

[The Twinslayer]

15 hours ago, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

yes, forgot about Lancel and the belly shots.

Funny.

And she tried to seduce Ned, too.  The implication is that she had only one method for getting people to do what she wanted them to do.

11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Yandel is a propagandist for Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen to be sure. How that translates to making Aerys look like he stopped sleeping around is rather dicey. One would think he would make Aerys out to be worse than he was, rather than better. The truth is there is nothing to support Aerys and Cersei had a sexual relationship. What is even more dicey is the idea the fourteen to fifteen year old Cersei controlled Aerys enough to get him to do anything he didn't want to do. What do you think is more likely Cersei as the puppet or the puppet master? Given how bad she is at the game of thrones when she is an adult, one has to wonder how she regressed from a master player who could control the king and his court with just her sly, but ignorant, mind and her young body. I don't believe it.

Yandel is also a propagandist for Tywin. 

The support for Cersei having sex with Tywin is circumstantial:  Cersei uses sex (or tries to use sex) to get men to do what she wants them to do (join the KG for me; kill the king for me; support my bastard's ascension to the throne for me!  and so on); she tells Jaime she has the power to get him into the KG; Jaime gets into the KG; and she believes she was the one who achieved this.

Add the fact that Aerys was promiscuous, he supposededly slept with Joanna, he liked to humiliate Tywin, and Tywin resigned as Hand and got Cersei away from KL immediately after whatever caused Aerys to name Jaime to the KG, and I think the conclusion is unescapable-- Cersei slept with Aerys to get Jaime in the KG.

Even if someone else was really pulling the strings.  Because Cersei did not know there was a puppet master.  She just played her part by manipulating Aerys the only way she knew.

[SFDanny]

On 3/8/2017 at 7:55 PM, The Twinslayer said:

Add the fact that Aerys was promiscuous, he supposededly slept with Joanna, he liked to humiliate Tywin, and Tywin resigned as Hand and got Cersei away from KL immediately after whatever caused Aerys to name Jaime to the KG, and I think the conclusion is unescapable-- Cersei slept with Aerys to get Jaime in the KG.

Even if someone else was really pulling the strings.  Because Cersei did not know there was a puppet master.  She just played her part by manipulating Aerys the only way she knew.

How do you jump to that amazing conclusion? Tywin resigns as hand when Jaime is named to the Kingsguard. The conclusion that is inescapable is that Tywin does so because Aerys took his son and heir away, not that Aerys slept with Cersei. Again we have zero evidence this happened.

I doubt Cersei and Aerys even talked about the subject. This smells of Varys's work, and his plan, and his manipulation. Varys is the puppet master behind the throne, or so he thinks he is until Aerys lets Tywin in the gates, but Cersei's master plan up to this point has been to bat her eyes at Rhaegar and think that clever. She isn't clever enough to come up with the plan -which backfires to her understanding of it when she is taken away by Tywin - and there is no evidence she has the influence on anyone to get the plan in motion. Varys and Aerys have every reason to want this to work, including forcing Tywin to resign and go back to Casterlly Rock. They have Jaime as a hostage, and don't need Cersei for anything once she has convinced Jaime to accept the appointment. For the King and Varys it is a master bit of intrigue. For Cersei it is stupidity if she really wants to bring Jaime close to her. She's just a arrogant little spoiled girl who thinks herself clever and is used by people with much, much more experience in the game.

edit: There is one more thing about Cersei's plotting that I think should be said concerning Jaime. Not that I think for one minute that Cersei orchestrated this through her manipulation of Aerys and Varys, but her motive for participating in this plan may not be what we are told. We are told it is so the twins can be together again, but what if Cersei actually sees the likely consequences of Jaime becoming a member of the Kingsguard. That is, what if she is either smart enough to figure it out on her own, or Varys tells her, that it will result in the end of Tywin's marriage plans for Jaime, the end of Tywin's tenure as Hand, and the removal of Tywin and Cersei from King's Landing and the separation of them from Jaime. Suppose she knows this. Then why would she go through with her role in the plot?

Because when Jaime joins the Kingsguard, she knows, because of her father's feelings towards Tyrion, that she is likely the next Lady of Casterly Rock. Her father's chosen heir. That would put her actions in a interesting twist. She sleeps with Jaime to rob him of his birthright. Just a thought.

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Funny.

And she tried to seduce Ned, too.  The implication is that she had only one method for getting people to do what she wanted them to do.

Not really.

Pycelle does what she wants as do the Hound but there's no reason to think she slept with any of them. That Cersei uses sex as a tool is clear, given how men are usually dismissive of women in Westeros its just one of the ways that Cersei uses to assert herself. Likewise she gets Bronn to not fight for Tyrion against Gregor by offering to arrange for him to become the next Lord Stokeworth, as I recall, and she constructs a whole great march of witnesses against Tyrion after Joffrey was murdered, she tries unsuccessfully to manipuate th High Septon, she didn't sleep with Lord Byrch for the attack on Bronn and son on and on.

I dare say that there are more instances that Cersei does not use sex than when she does use, or try to use, sex.

[Westerosi Coast Gangster]

9 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Not really.

Pycelle does what she wants as do the Hound but there's no reason to think she slept with any of them. That Cersei uses sex as a tool is clear, given how men are usually dismissive of women in Westeros its just one of the ways that Cersei uses to assert herself. Likewise she gets Bronn to not fight for Tyrion against Gregor by offering to arrange for him to become the next Lord Stokeworth, as I recall, and she constructs a whole great march of witnesses against Tyrion after Joffrey was murdered, she tries unsuccessfully to manipuate th High Septon, she didn't sleep with Lord Byrch for the attack on Bronn and son on and on.

I dare say that there are more instances that Cersei does not use sex than when she does use, or try to use, sex.

Cersei arranges for Bronn to Mary Lollys Stoke worth, the younger sister. only if the Lady Stoke worth dies would Lollys become lady, and Bronn Lord. But Lady Stokeworth mysteriously breaks her hip in a riding accident, so Bronns ascension seems likely.

[Lion of the West]

22 hours ago, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

Cersei arranges for Bronn to Mary Lollys Stoke worth, the younger sister. only if the Lady Stoke worth dies would Lollys become lady, and Bronn Lord. But Lady Stokeworth mysteriously breaks her hip in a riding accident, so Bronns ascension seems likely.

True enough, forgive my blunder. Marrying into the nobility is a massive step upwards for Bronn, more than Tyrion had arranged for him so far, and so I hope that my point still stands.