How did Cersei get Jamie in the KG

[devilish]

If Aerys slept with Cersei then rest assured that Tywin would have known it. The mad dragon just loved humiliating the lion in public. I won't be surprised if Cersei used Pycelle to forward the idea to Aerys. The old man was on Lannister payroll and would see that as a move to keep his job even after Tywin was gone. 

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, devilish said:

If Aerys slept with Cersei then rest assured that Tywin would have known it. The mad dragon just loved humiliating the lion in public. I won't be surprised if Cersei used Pycelle to forward the idea to Aerys. The old man was on Lannister payroll and would see that as a move to keep his job even after Tywin was gone. 

I agree.  Aerys would have loved to brag to Tywin that he'd slept with his daughter.  So, we can rule that out.

Cersei possesses a degree of low cunning.  She would have known that Aerys enjoyed humiliating her father, and she would have raised the idea of Jaime joining the Kingsguard with enough people for it to get back to Aerys.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I agree.  Aerys would have loved to brag to Tywin that he'd slept with his daughter.  So, we can rule that out.

Cersei possesses a degree of low cunning.  She would have known that Aerys enjoyed humiliating her father, and she would have raised the idea of Jaime joining the Kingsguard with enough people for it to get back to Aerys.

Pycelle is the obvious suspect. There again, Cersei was yet too young to know her father's men. So I say why not go for a simplier plan? Something a spoiled cub with low cunningness and a knack for thinly vieled threats could have easily orchestrated?

I can see Kevan and Tywin being absent from CR for a decent period of time. Tywin was hand of the king and even when he resigned he was still Warden of one of the richest regions in Westeros. The lion must have been quite busy trying to marry his children within prestigeous houses. I presume that required loads of diplomacy some of which needed to be done face to face, which means that CR would be left 'unguarded'.

All that Cersei had to do was to wait for until her daddy and uncle weren't around and order the maester to send a raven with her own message to CR. Who would possibly stop her from doing that? The girl was quite gifted in low cunningness and in delivering thinly vieled threats. She also had the heir of CR wrapped around her little fingers which means that anyone pissing her, would probably piss the man who will one day own the place. Maesters were assigned to a place for all their lives. It would be within his interest to grant her this little favour. After all the Lannisters always pay their debts and the memories of Castamere was still fresh on everybody's mind.

By that time the situation between Tywin and Aerys had already degenerated so I am pretty sure that the dragon would make sure that any messages coming from in from the wardens would go directly to him. Aerys would surely be intrigued by Cersei's offer. Having Jamie around as KG and possible hostage would not only poke the lion even further (something Aerys loved to do) but would also make sure to keep him in line. That was a blessing Aerys wouldn't refuse

[Cridefea]

Does we know if Tywin's plan for Jaime and Lysa was real? Cersei tells Jaime about it, but is it mentioned by someone else?

[Renly's Banana]

It's never really explained in detail. That's actually something I hope GRRM doesn't forget to elaborate on in the future. All we know is that Cersei told Jaime she'd "handle it" if he agreed to it, and he did. What exactly she did or said to Aerys is unknown.

I suppose it's not impossible that she just simply asked for an audience with him and planted that seed in Aerys' head. He would have immediately loved the idea cause it was another jab at Tywin. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 3/1/2017 at 8:08 AM, devilish said:

Pycelle is the obvious suspect.

I doubt Pycelle would do anything so obviously at odds with what his master Tywin wanted.

1 hour ago, Cridefea said:

Does we know if Tywin's plan for Jaime and Lysa was real? Cersei tells Jaime about it, but is it mentioned by someone else?

It wasn't Tywin's plan necessarily. Lord Hoster Tully proposed the match. We don't know if Tywin was going to accept the idea.

[Cridefea]

18 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

It wasn't Tywin's plan necessarily. Lord Hoster Tully proposed the match. We don't know if Tywin was going to accept the idea.

ok, but how we know it? does someone besides Cersei talk about it?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

17 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

ok, but how we know it? does someone besides Cersei talk about it?

Couldn't say for sure but I think it's mentioned in a Catelyn chapter.

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/28/2017 at 3:19 PM, The Twinslayer said:

I think she slept with Aerys.  

 

On 2/28/2017 at 3:39 PM, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

not sure if this is serious, but I highly doubt that.

It's how she gets control over everyone else. Lancel, Kettleblacks and Moonboy for all I know. Still she would have been 14 or 15 so I hope not.

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I doubt Pycelle would do anything so obviously at odds with what his master Tywin wanted.

It wasn't Tywin's plan necessarily. Lord Hoster Tully proposed the match. We don't know if Tywin was going to accept the idea.

Agreed Pycelle would understand how much this would angry his bae Tywin.

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Couldn't say for sure but I think it's mentioned in a Catelyn chapter.

Jaime mentions Lord Crakehall send him with a message to the Tully which Hoster took a month replying and sat him next to Lysa at every meal.

Quote

Jaime could see archers moving behind the merlons on the castle ramparts. Above them streamed the banners of House Tully, the silver trout defiant on its striped field of red and blue. But the highest tower flew a different flag; a long white standard emblazoned with the direwolf of Stark. "The first time I saw Riverrun, I was a squire green as summer grass," Jaime told his cousin. "Old Sumner Crakehall sent me to deliver a message, one he swore could not be entrusted to a raven. Lord Hoster kept me for a fortnight whilst mulling his reply, and sat me beside his daughter Lysa at every meal."

"Small wonder you took the white. I'd have done the same."

Also sick burn by Daven Lannister.

[The Fresh PtwP]

Everytime I think Cersei found some...appropriate, logical or rational way to manipulate Aerys my mind starts yelling "It's CERSEI and AERYS! Something happened!" and I can't shake the thought.

My guess though is that whatever went down, it was PG-13 or Cersei would brood on it.

[devilish]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I doubt Pycelle would do anything so obviously at odds with what his master Tywin wanted.

It wasn't Tywin's plan necessarily. Lord Hoster Tully proposed the match. We don't know if Tywin was going to accept the idea.

The man is an idiot enough to think that every Lannister work for Tywin's interest

[SFDanny]

I don't for a minute think this plan originated with Cersei, although she thinks it does. Cersei is at court for years with her father and one can be sure Varys had her closely watched and listen to during that time. A slip of a reference by her or some one in her retinue about Joanna having to separate the twins because of their "play" and that would be enough to get Varys going on how to use the incest to his advantage. After all he tells Ned he has known the secret for a long time.

I don't think it likely Cersei sleeps with Aerys, and we certainly don't have any indication yet that is the case. No, Varys gets a friend to lead Cersei to the plan and then helps her with the Inn in which the twins can be together. And, viola, Jaime consents. We know the reasons why both Varys and Aerys want this to work - stopping the marriage of Jaime and Lysa stops the expansion of the STAB bloc to include the Lannisters, it robs Tywin of his heir, and gives Jaime as a hostage to Tywin's good behavior, etc. - and the fourteen to fifteen year old Cersei is the unwitting tool who thinks herself clever that gets their work done for them. 

[Cridefea]

10 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Jaime mentions Lord Crakehall send him with a message to the Tully which Hoster took a month replying and sat him next to Lysa at every meal.

 

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Couldn't say for sure but I think it's mentioned in a Catelyn chapter.

So we don't know for sure it was real or if cersei used it to convince Jaime... 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 hours ago, Cridefea said:

 

So we don't know for sure it was real or if cersei used it to convince Jaime... 

Except read this from Lord Wraith...

16 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Jaime mentions Lord Crakehall sent him with a message to the Tully which Hoster took a month replying and sat him next to Lysa at every meal.

Sounds like Hoster wasn't being remotely subtle.

[Cridefea]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Except read this from Lord Wraith...

Sounds like Hoster wasn't being remotely subtle.

Yes it could be, but remember this is Jaime's POV, after that Cersei told him about Lysa. He has always believed her.

Anyway what I meant it's that we don't know if Tywin agreed with Hoster, even if Tully wanted that wedding it doesn't mean Tywin "meant to marry him to Lysa Tully," and " had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower." as Cersei told Jaime. 

All in all, that's not so important, but , if true, it would show how much Cersei have manipulated the events.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Just now, Cridefea said:

Yes it could be, but remember this is Jaime's POV, after that Cersei told him about Lysa. He has always believed her.

Anyway what I meant it's that we don't know if Tywin agreed with Hoster, even if Tully wanted that wedding it doesn't mean Tywin "meant to marry him to Lysa Tully," and " had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower." as Cersei told Jaime. 

All in all, that's not so important, but , if true, it would show how much Cersei have manipulated the events.

Ah I see. Good point.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Rhaella knew about Aerys and Cersei's mom, it was Rhaella that had her dismissed from her side before she married Tywin, she would not have looked kindly at Cersei.

Pycelle would never have crossed Tywin.

I think your looking too much into it, we should probably assume GRRM didn't work out those details, but we can safely remove the two above mentioned possibilities.

[Lord Wraith]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Except read this from Lord Wraith...

Sounds like Hoster wasn't being remotely subtle.

 

3 hours ago, Cridefea said:

Yes it could be, but remember this is Jaime's POV, after that Cersei told him about Lysa. He has always believed her.

Anyway what I meant it's that we don't know if Tywin agreed with Hoster, even if Tully wanted that wedding it doesn't mean Tywin "meant to marry him to Lysa Tully," and " had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower." as Cersei told Jaime. 

All in all, that's not so important, but , if true, it would show how much Cersei have manipulated the events.

Another quote.

Quote

Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crake-hall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King's Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one?

Makes sense for Tywin. Also its a typical Cersei plans that immediately backfires.

[SFDanny]

Add the below quote to this and we have assurance that Tywin was pushing the wedding of Jaime to Lysa.

Quote

"You asked me to reward you for you efforts in battle," Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. "This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are likely to have." He drummed his fingers impatiently on the table. "I had once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lyasa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter." (ASoS 221) bold emphasis added

 

This is a conversation between Tywin and Tyrion with Kevan present. There is no need for Tywin to lie about what his old intentions were to his son and brother. At some point after the wedding of Rhaegar to Elia Tywin shifts his plans from getting Cersei to wed Rhaegar to other strategies. With Jaime married to Lysa he would have had his entry into the STAB bloc.

[Cridefea]

7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Add the below quote to this and we have assurance that Tywin was pushing the wedding of Jaime to Lysa.

 

Quote

"You asked me to reward you for you efforts in battle," Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. "This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are likely to have." He drummed his fingers impatiently on the table. "I had once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lyasa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter." (ASoS 221) bold emphasis added

 

 

This is a conversation between Tywin and Tyrion with Kevan present. There is no need for Tywin to lie about what his old intentions were to his son and brother. At some point after the wedding of Rhaegar to Elia Tywin shifts his plans from getting Cersei to wed Rhaegar to other strategies. With Jaime married to Lysa he would have had his entry into the STAB bloc.

Oh god why do I see only symbols and no words?     Anyway I've read the post from the mobile phone.

Yeah you're right, thank you! that is what I was looking for. So Tywin was really pushing the wedding, it's not a Cersei lie.