Moments of Foreshadowing v.12

[Lady Dacey]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Several threads back, @Fire Eater suggested the bull represented Victarion,

Interesting! I remember this passage:

"Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, and Victarion was the strongest of them, a bull of a man, fearless and dutiful. And therein lies our danger." 

Thats how the Damphair instroduces us to Victarion. I remember thinking this comparison could not be without meaning... nice idea! It fits much better than my original thought, specially because it actually concerns Daenerys. 

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Isobel Harper has a thread on the red wolves of the Rhoyne.

That was an nice read, thanks! Food for thought. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

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As he stood outside the armory looking up, Jon felt almost as overwhelmed as he had that day on the kingsroad, when he'd seen it for the first time. The Wall was like that. Sometimes he could almost forget that it was there, the way you forgot about the sky or the earth underfoot, but there were other times when it seemed as if there was nothing else in the world. It was older than the Seven Kingdoms, and when he stood beneath it and looked up, it made Jon dizzy. He could feel the great weight of all that ice pressing down on him, as if it were about to topple, and somehow Jon knew that if it fell, the world fell with it.

Jon III, Game 19

The Wall will fall. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

 

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Tyrion grinned at him. "That's good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."

"Most men," the boy said. "But not you." 

"No," Tyrion admitted, "not me. I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons." He scooped up the fallen bearskin. "Come, we had better return to camp before your uncle calls the banners."

 

 

This is all possible foreshadowing of Tyrion being a bastard, Tyrion being Jon's uncle, and Tyrian calling the banners, the dragon banners... Benjen has no banners to call.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

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"At evenfall, as the sun sets and we face the gathering night, you shall take your vows." (Jon VI, Game 48)

I never even noticed this before. And I just find it interesting that this may be a tradition that the NW has upheld, although the reason for the existence of the order has been forgotten.

And it could also be foreshadowing for the actual gathering night.

But now, I have a few questions about the opening line of the Night's Watch vows. 

"Night gathers and now my watch begins." 

We are told that the Night's Watch was created to push back the Others. So that happens when the actual night is gathering. So the vows "night gathers and now my begins" are these men taking their vows and riding forth to fight the Others. Meanwhile ten thousand years later (or whatever time has passed), the night is gathering just now, so has the watch really begun?

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I never even noticed this before. And I just find it interesting that this may be a tradition that the NW has upheld, although the reason for the existence of the order has been forgotten.

And it could also be foreshadowing for the actual gathering night.

But now, I have a few questions about the opening line of the Night's Watch vows. 

"Night gathers and now my watch begins." 

  You are not wrong in this, at all, on any point. How many times are we told the Nights Watch has forgotten its true purpose? 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

  You are not wrong in this, at all, on any point. How many times are we told the Nights Watch has forgotten its true purpose? 

This. But also, how beholden are the men of the Night's Watch right now to their vows since technically, the "night" hasn't gathered just yet? 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

This. But also, how beholden are the men of the Night's Watch right now to their vows since technically, the "night" hasn't gathered just yet? 

 

EXACTLY!!! And if you search the books for the vows, you get about five versions of the same thing... all with little tweaks here and there. So, what the hell is that supposed to imply? 

LC Mormont is correct, and Jon figures this out on his own along his journey of experiences. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

EXACTLY!!! And if you search the books for the vows, you get about five versions of the same thing... all with little tweaks here and there. So, what the hell is that supposed to imply? 

LC Mormont is correct, and Jon figures this out on his own along his journey of experiences. 

I totally used the wrong thread, I wanted the things I never noticed one, so apologies for that.

I think the implication is that the people at the NW are parroting words that have lost meaning. Jon has to remind Bowen Marsh that the NW protects the realms of men. This might be important when the time comes to release Jon from the NW. His vows are binding once the night actually gathers. And same goes for everyone present at the Wall, really. Once the Long Night begins, that's when they become bound to fight. 

That's my personal interpretation.

The whole taking vows as the night is falling is such a manipulation, I find.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I was reading Jon VII in AGOT and came across Ghost's behavior before the wights attack Mormont. 

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Yet he must have dozed. When he woke, his legs were still and cramped and the candle had long since burned out. Ghost stood on hind legs, scrabbling at the door. Jon was startled to see how tall he'd grown. "Ghost, what is it?" he called softly. The direwolf turned his head and looked down at him, baring his fans in a silent snarl. Has he gone mad? Jon wondered. "It's me, Ghost," he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?
Ghost backed away from the door. There were deep gouges where he'd raked the wood. Jon watched him with mounting disquiet. "There's someone out there, isn't there?" he whispered. Crouching, the direwolf crept backward, white fur rising on the back of his neck. The guard, he thought, they left a man to guard my door, Ghost smells him through the door, that's all it is. (Jon VII, AGOT 52)

And then in Jon XIII, ADWD, where Mormont's raven is also agitated.

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Outside the armory, Mully and the Flea stood shivering at guard. "Shouldn't you be inside, out of this wind?" Jon asked.
"That'd be sweet, m'lord," said Fulk the Flea, "but your wolf's in no mood for company today."
Mully agreed. "He tried to take a bite o' me, he did."
"Ghost?" Jon was shocked.
"Unless your lordship has some other white wolf, aye. I never seen him like this, m'lord. All wild-like, I mean."
He was not wrong, as Jon discovered for himself when he slipped inside the doors. The big white direwolf would not lie still. He paced from one end of the armory to the other, past the cold forge and back again. "Easy, Ghost," Jon called. "Down. Sit, Ghost. Down." Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf bristled and bared his teeth. It's that bloody boar. Even here, Ghost can smell his stink.
Mormont's raven seemed agitated too. "Snow," the bird kept screaming, "Snow, snow, snow." (Jon XII, ADWD 69)

I had always assumed that Ghost was behaving like this because Jon was in danger. But he never attacks Bowen Marsh. All the text says is that his sniffs at them (Marsh and Yarwyck), his tail upraised and bristling. But he doesn't snarl, doesn't bare his teeth or anything of the sort. 

And Jon assumes in AGOT that Ghost is behaving that way because of the smell of the guard behind the door, and again, he thinks that Ghost's behavior has to do with Borroq's boar in Dance. We know he was wrong the first time. Might be he's wrong this time as well.

Right after we get this;

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"How many men do we have in ice cells?" he asked Bowen Marsh.
"Four living men. Two dead ones."
The corpses. Jon had almost forgotten them. He had hoped to learn something from the bodies they'd brought back from the weirwood grove, but the dead men had stubbornly remained dead. (Jon XIII, ADWD 69)

Is it possible that this is what has Ghost and the raven agitated? And that the two corpses are going to be raised possibly during all the chaos at Castle Black following Jon's stabbing?

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 12/14/2017 at 4:56 AM, Lady Dacey said:

Interesting! I remember this passage:

"Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, and Victarion was the strongest of them, a bull of a man, fearless and dutiful. And therein lies our danger." 

Thats how the Damphair instroduces us to Victarion. I remember thinking this comparison could not be without meaning... nice idea! It fits much better than my original thought, specially because it actually concerns Daenerys. 

That was an nice read, thanks! Food for thought. 

Then again, as Daenerys introduces us to Jorah...

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The knight smiled. Ser Jorah was not a handsome man. He had a neck and shoulders like a bull, and coarse black hair covered his arms and chest so thickly that there wasnone left for his head. Yet his smiles gave Dany comfort.

Arya III, Game 23

[Lost Melnibonean]

With this in mind...

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Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her, She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

Daenerys III, Game 23

She's gaining confidence and losing fear of Viserys. The black dragon slick with red blood foreshadows her bond with Drogon. That the blood is hers matches the blood on her thighs from the last dream and leaves no doubt that she is meant to be the mother of dragons; not Rhaego, and not a bunch of former slaves in Meereen. The remainder of this second dragon dream mirrors Drogo's funeral pyre...

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A rising heat puffed at her face, soft and sudden as a lover's breath, but in seconds it had grown too hot to bear. Dany stepped backward. ... Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. ...

Daenerys IX, Game 73

And then of course she walked into the fire.

[Lost Melnibonean]

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“The Dothraki sea," Ser Jorah Mormont said as he reined to a halt beside her on the top of the ridge. Beneath them, the plain stretched out immense and empty, a vast flat expanse that reached to the distant horizon and beyond. It was a sea, Dany thought. Past here, there were no hills, no mountains, no trees nor cities nor roads, only the endless grasses, the tall blades rippling like waves when the winds blew.

"It's so green," she said.

"Here and now," Ser Jorah agreed. "You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood.”

Daenerys III, Game 23

The phrase “sea of blood” is used only once more in all of ASOIAF...

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... The Selaesori Qhoran had furled her big striped sail for the night, and her decks were all but deserted. One of the mates was on the sterncastle, and amidships Moqorro sat by his brazier, where a few small flames still danced amongst the embers.

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. ...

...

"The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill."

A cold chill went down his back. "Are we close?"

"Closer than the crew would like," Moqorro said in his deep voice. "Do you know the stories, in your Sunset Kingdoms?"

"I know some sailors say that any man who lays eyes upon that coast is doomed." ...

...

... "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

...

... "Does our captain mean to test the curse?"

"Our captain would prefer to be fifty leagues farther out to sea, well away from that accursed shore, but I have commanded him to steer the shortest course. Others seek Daenerys too."

Griff, with his young prince. Could all that talk of the Golden Company sailing west have been a feint? Tyrion considered saying something, then thought better. It seemed to him that the prophecy that drove the red priests had room for just one hero. A second Targaryen would only serve to confuse them. "Have you seen these others in your fires?" he asked, warily.

"Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

Tyrion VIII, Dance 33

And that recalls Quaithe’s warning...

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"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them."

Daenerys II, Dance 11

The pale mare arrived in Daenerys V, Dance 30. Tyrion, the wee lion reached Slaver’s Bay in Tyrion X, Dance 47, and Quentyn Martell did so in The Windblown, Dance 25, but Jon Connington of the dancing griffins and his mummer’s dragon red with rust turned west.

That leaves kraken and dark flame, both of which are speeding toward Meereen, but Daenerys has flown off into the Dothraki Sea.

Does this foreshadow that Victarion, sent by Euron with his one black eye, will pursue Daenerys into the Dothraki Sea?

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Daenerys III, Game 23

The phrase “sea of blood” is used only once more in all of ASOIAF...

Tyrion VIII, Dance 33

And that recalls Quaithe’s warning...

Daenerys II, Dance 11

The pale mare arrived in Daenerys V, Dance 30. Tyrion, the wee lion reached Slaver’s Bay in Tyrion X, Dance 47, and Quentyn Martell did so in The Windblown, Dance 25, but Jon Connington of the dancing griffins and his mummer’s dragon red with rust turned west.

That leaves kraken and dark flame, both of which are speeding toward Meereen, but Daenerys has flown off into the Dothraki Sea.

Does this foreshadow that Victarion, sent by Euron with his one black eye, will pursue Daenerys into the Dothraki Sea?

There is another reference to the dark eye:
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

The priest was pointing at the Black Wall behind the temple, gesturing up at its parapets, where a handful of armored guardsmen stood gazing down. "What is he saying?" Tyrion asked the knight.

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

What are the temples of deceit and who are the godless outlanders?  Does this have something to do with the crones of the Dosh Khaleen?
 

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

Bells rang, a sudden clangor of bronze birds. A deep-throated warhorn sounded its long low note. The old women began to chant. Underneath their painted leather vests, their withered dugs swayed back and forth, shiny with oil and sweat. The eunuchs who served them threw bundles of dried grasses into a great bronze brazier, and clouds of fragrant smoke rose up toward the moon and the stars. The Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire, a great herd that galloped across the sky by night.

As the smoke ascended, the chanting died away and the ancient crone closed her single eye, the better to peer into the future. The silence that fell was complete. Dany could hear the distant call of night birds, the hiss and crackle of the torches, the gentle lapping of water from the lake. The Dothraki stared at her with eyes of night, waiting.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is another reference to the dark eye:

What are the temples of deceit and who are the godless outlanders?  Does this have something to do with the crones of the Dosh Khaleen?

Nice.

As to Benerro's warning...

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

Tyrion VII, Dance 27

In-story, this appears to be intended to stoke support for Daenerys and against the ruling class in Volantis, paving the way for a slave revolt. 

However, I like the way you connect it to the warnings of Moqorro and Quaithe, as if all three of them are seeing shadows of the same threats. So what are those threats?

In-story, the dark eye is the great other. The minions of night are those who do his bidding whether wittingly or unwittingly. In this case the ruling class of Volantis. Presumably, the ruling class either prays to different gods, or they fail to show sufficient devotion to R'hllor, thus praying to false gods in temples of deceit. The godless outlanders would be their hired mercenaries and the Ghiscari allies. 

If the dark eye is the same as Quaithe’s kraken, and Moqorro's tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, then the minions of the night would be the Ironmen who pray to the Downed God. But who would be the godless outlanders? If Victarion allies with the Dothraki, they are not likely to betray Daenerys. 

[LynnS]

54 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nice.

As to Benerro's warning...

Tyrion VII, Dance 27

In-story, this appears to be intended to stoke support for Daenerys and against the ruling class in Volantis, paving the way for a slave revolt. 

However, I like the way you connect it to the warnings of Moqorro and Quaithe, as if all three of them are seeing shadows of the same threats. So what those threats?

In-story, the dark eye is the great other. The minions of night are those who do his bidding whether wittingly or unwittingly. In this case the ruling class of Volantis. Presumably, the ruling class either prays to different gods, or they fail to show sufficient devotion to R'hllor, thus praying to false gods in temples of deceit. The godless outlanders would be their hired mercenaries and the Ghiscari allies. 

If the dark eye is the same as Quaithe’s kraken, and Moqorro's tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, then the minions of the night would be the Ironmen who pray to the Downed God. But who would be the godless outlanders? If Victarion allies with the Dothraki, they are not likely to betray Daenerys. 

I've also wondered if the temples of deceit refer to the Citadel and the House of Black and White as well. Martin refers to the Iron Throne as a tall and twisted thing and I wonder the temples of deceit are tall and twisted as well.

I'm curious how Marwyn fits into Quaithe's warnings as someone on his way to meet her.   Kraken and Dark Flame seems to fit Victarion/Moqqoro.  I know we can't trust Victarion or Euron who sent him; but what about Moqorro?  He's there to subvert Euron's plans in some way.  Is Euron conspiring with someone else? Is it possible he received his magic armor from Volantis?

Marwyn is someone else on his way to Dany but he isn't mentioned by Quaithe unless he is dark flame (glass candle). 

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I've also wondered if the temples of deceit refer to the Citadel and the House of Black and White as well. Martin refers to the Iron Throne as a tall and twisted thing and I wonder the temples of deceit are tall and twisted as well.

I'm curious how Marwyn fits into Quaithe's warnings as someone on his way to meet her.   Kraken and Dark Flame seems to fit Victarion/Moqqoro.  I know we can't trust Victarion or Euron who sent him; but what about Moqorro?  He's there to subvert Euron's plans in some way.  Is Euron conspiring with someone else? Is it possible he received his magic armor from Volantis?

Marwyn is someone else on his way to Dany but he isn't mentioned by Quaithe unless he is dark flame (glass candle). 

The folks in Quaithe’s vision are seeking to use her dragons or her power--remember the undying. Victarion and Moqorro clearly fit the bill (assuming Moqorro wants to use Daenerys's power to advance Benerro's ends in Volantis or some purpose other than Daenerys's ends). Marwyn might be different. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. "You are a foolish strawhead slave," Irri said. "Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known."

"It is known," Jhiqui agreed.

Daenerys III, Game 23

It is known that this foreshadows the hatching of Daenerys’s dragonlets.

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"I pray that my sun-and-stars will not keep him waiting too long," she tod Ser Jorah when her brother was out of earshot. 

Daenerys IV, Game 36

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Khal Drogo looked down at her. ... "Is good name, Dan Ares wife, moon of my life," he said. 

Daenerys V, Game 46

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The folks in Quaithe’s vision are seeking to use her dragons or her power--remember the undying. Victarion and Moqorro clearly fit the bill (assuming Moqorro wants to use Daenerys's power to advance Benerro's ends in Volantis or some purpose other than Daenerys's ends). Marwyn might be different. 

How many black roads are there leading from Volantis? Ten?

Spoiler

Then there is Aeron's vision of Euron commanding Kraken's, sphynxes, manticores etc.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

Volantis straddled one mouth of the Rhoyne where the river kissed the sea, its two halves joined by the Long Bridge. The oldest, richest part of the city was east of the river, but sellswords, barbarians, and other uncouth outlanders were not welcome there, so they must needs cross over to the west.

The gateway to the Long Bridge was a black stone arch carved with sphinxes, manticores, dragons, and creatures stranger still. Beyond the arch stretched the great span that the Valyrians had built at the height of their glory, its fused stone roadway supported by massive piers. The road was just wide enough for two carts to pass abreast, so whenever a wagon headed west passed one going east, both had to slow to a crawl.

 

I'm guessing that Euron is allied with the dark eye in Volantis.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

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"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

What are the temples of deceit and who are the godless outlanders?  Does this have something to do with the crones of the Dosh Khaleen?

I would suggest that Euron is the dark eye, and his emissary Vicarion and the Iron fleet are represented by the “godless outlanders”.

As for the temples of deceit...

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"The young queen is wise beyond her years," Xaro Xhoan Daxos murmured down at her from his high saddle. "There is a saying in Qarth. A warlock's house is built of bones and lies."

I believe the Warlocks and whatever their version of the Old Gods is, are the minions of night (shade of the evening) and their houses the temples of deceit.

 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I would suggest that Euron is the dark eye, and his emissary Vicarion and the Iron fleet are represented by the “godless outlanders”.

As for the temples of deceit...

I believe the Warlocks and whatever their version of the Old Gods is, are the minions of night (shade of the evening) and their houses the temples of deceit.

I would agree with Euron as the dark eye and the warlocks as minions of the night.  Benerro seems to think he's allied with Volantis.  It's this quote here that seems to connect Euron with Volantis:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

The priest was pointing at the Black Wall behind the temple, gesturing up at its parapets, where a handful of armored guardsmen stood gazing down. "What is he saying?" Tyrion asked the knight.

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"