Crowfood's Daughter

The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

218 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

31 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

I know there is a difference in mute appeal vs. mute assent.  But both instances we see a feast of human flesh presided over by a wolf man and for some reason my mind just kept going back to this comment you made the other day when I read this.  Probably nothing, like I said.  BTW, if you ever get a chance Book 1 seems to follow many ASOIAF concepts. Ovid discusses The four ages, then moves to the War with the Giants, retells Lycaon’s feast, then transitions to The great flood.  I think GRRM took similar influence from Hesiod's five ages of man and Ovid's four ages of man as he did from Tolkien 's four ages. 

I had totaly forgotten Lycaon's story. Lycaon means wolf in greek, and there are different versions of the myth, but they have all in common this fact : the king Lycaon offered human flesh (the more often of his son(s)) in sacrifice to Zeus, and Zeus punished him by changing in wolf. 

The link with the flood as a consequence is interesting, because Winterfell was flooded once by Theon and his Ironborn, and perhaps he could end by being litteraly flooded (like the "towers by the sea" in Melisandre's vision)

Anyway, good catch with this reference ! 

 

edit : note that in some version, Lycaon's son has a name, he is Arcas, same root as "arktos" who means the bear. After the "sacrifice" or the "feast", Arcas was resurrectied by Zeus and became king. I don't know if you have read the thread "the bear and the fair maiden" from Sweetsunray, but she explores very well the bear's theme in the saga. 

Edited by GloubieBoulga

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4 hours ago, Unchained said:

This helped me put together some of what I was thinking about. When I found Celtic Balor and Lugh, I did connect him vaguely to Perseus, but withou the similar names of the trapped women (not Baelor, missed that one too and I will come back to Perseus), but mostly I just saw the similarites between him and Cronus.  They are both primordial, prophecy paranoid, anti-farm gods among other similarites.  He fits the profile for Grey King types you lay out.  He is associated with farming and the order of the seasons, but in the opposite way than someone like Garth.  Garth carries a bottomless bag of seeds, Cronus carries a scythe.  He is the reaper like Cain.  Cronus goes hand and hand with time and its ravages.  The greeks called personified time Chronos, which is basically the same.  I think the Cronus of this story is the Mad King fighting against Zeus(KIng Bob and Jon Arryn), Hades(Ned), and Poseidon(Stannis).  

 

Yeah I had picked up on Cronus about a week ago, but still trying to get my thoughts straight.  The ideas I get are usually like a murky swamp where things just sit and slosh around until I can make heads or tales of them.  You are right that Cronus is also a "dead" ringer in his father time semblance.  But he also had some fertility things going for him as well.  Kind of like the duality that @LmL has been pointing to.  The crazy thing is that I noticed there is a connection to Cronus with Waymar Royce's sable cloak.  Turns out sable is also a color used in heraldry and we know how much GRRM is a heraldry buff, so I decided to go down that rabbit hole and sure enough.  Sable corresponds to Saturn (aka Cronus) in heraldry.

Centuries ago, arms were often described poetically and the tinctures were connected to different gemstones, flowers and heavenly bodies. Sable usually represented the following:

So I went chasing Cronus and yes he has Grey/green stuff working for him as well.   Now just trying to make heads or tales of Waymar Royce, because GRRM mentioned that cloak so many times in the prologue.

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Posted (edited)

On 3/13/2017 at 3:34 AM, Unchained said:

In some of the stories Lann pretends to be Garth's child to steal inheritance just like Tyrion unknowingly pretends to be Tywin's.  When he strips off his clothes and covers himself in butter to squeeze through the crack he sounds a lot like he is an infant being reborn in the Rock

@Crowfood's Daughter @LmL @ravenous reader @Unchained

So this was in the back of my mind recently while re-reading Clash. I realized that Lord Gyles Rosby is a dying green man because along with Lady Tanda (LmL, I think Lady Tanda is a good place to look for the Green Goddess) he provides the food to Kingslanding. However, he is also dying most likely from tuberculous. His heir is also his ward and I previously speculated that the practice of warding is a form of cuckooing (passing a child as the child of another). So Lann pretending to be Garth's child to steal an inheritance could be something akin to this. And he has the added bonus of being Master of Coin. 

Edited by Pain killer Jane

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6 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Now just trying to make heads or tales of Waymar Royce, because GRRM mentioned that cloak so many times in the prologue.

'Sable' is another name for the american 'marten' which is a pun on GRRM's name 'Martin'.  Together with the other two rangers, Will and Gared, who are respectively nods to William Shakespeare and Edgar Allan Poe, GRRM has situated a trio of writers (including himself) in the Prologue.  To add to the writing analogy -- and the theme I keep harping on about that the Word is the primary Sword -- Ser Waymar (who I like to quip is 'way more' than we think he is) wears gloves of moleskin, a pun on the famous notebook 'Moleskine' in which writers like to jot down their thoughts (does anyone know what kind of notebook GRRM prefers using?  @The Fattest Leech..?:))  Incidentally, Jon also wears moleskin gloves when he's flitting through the underground library (more writing allusions!) like a 'shadow among shadows' looking for Sam down there.

So why the writing theme in the prologue?  Basically I've posited that trees, especially the weirwoods whose function it is to preserve/archive cultural memory, are to be equated with books.  Books are a writer's means of immortality.  So when Waymar is resurrected, assuming this figure does indeed symbolise the author on some level, GRRM is envisioning persisting in some form beyond his mortal years (P.S.  In Waymar strangling Will, GRRM also fantasizes on a subconscious level about vanquishing Shakespeare!  Of course every writer in some form desires to conquer the best writer who ever wrote in English, as authors are naturally competitive with each other for ascendance and longevity).

Other figures who notably wear full coats of sable/marten are Euron (who purloined it from Baelor Blacktyde after killing him), Ramsay Bolton, Lady Dustin, and Tommen.

I'm still unsure what to make of it all.  Any further ideas?

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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

'Sable' is another name for the american 'marten' which is a pun on GRRM's name 'Martin'.  Together with the other two rangers, Will and Gared, who are respectively nods to William Shakespeare and Edgar Allan Poe, GRRM has situated a trio of writers (including himself) in the Prologue.  To add to the writing analogy -- and the theme I keep harping on about that the Word is the primary Sword -- Ser Waymar (who I like to quip is 'way more' than we think he is) wears gloves of moleskin, a pun on the famous notebook 'Moleskine' in which writers like to jot down their thoughts (does anyone know what kind of notebook GRRM prefers using?  @The Fattest Leech..?:))  Incidentally, Jon also wears moleskin gloves when he's flitting through the underground library (more writing allusions!) like a 'shadow among shadows' looking for Sam down there.

~snipped~

A DOS Wordstar 4.0 ;)

http://imgur.com/a/9PITE

:cheers:

Edited by The Fattest Leech
EDITOR BROKEN AGAIN!!!

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12 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

A DOS Wordstar 4.0 ;)

http://imgur.com/a/9PITE

:cheers:

:rofl:

Silly me -- and there I was thinking he'd prefer using 'quills and ravens'...;)

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Just now, ravenous reader said:

:rofl:

Silly me -- and there I was thinking he'd prefer using 'quills and ravens'...;)

Either way, I still think there is plenty of blood in the ink. :cool4:

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6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I'm still unsure what to make of it all.  Any further ideas?

Well the etymology for Martin comes from Mars, the God of War, probably why the Measter's are called the Knights of the Mind and another origin for the bardic knights running around in the story. Marten originally came from the Gothic word for wedding, bride, to marry and the joke about them having their 'little heads twisted off' is probably related to theme of being sacrificed to a god is being married to the god which is what you identified with being married to the trees. 

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Posted (edited)

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 0:43 PM, ravenous reader said:

'Sable' is another name for the american 'marten' which is a pun on GRRM's name 'Martin'.  Together with the other two rangers, Will and Gared, who are respectively nods to William Shakespeare and Edgar Allan Poe, GRRM has situated a trio of writers (including himself) in the Prologue.  To add to the writing analogy -- and the theme I keep harping on about that the Word is the primary Sword -- Ser Waymar (who I like to quip is 'way more' than we think he is) wears gloves of moleskin, a pun on the famous notebook 'Moleskine' in which writers like to jot down their thoughts (does anyone know what kind of notebook GRRM prefers using?  @The Fattest Leech..?:))  Incidentally, Jon also wears moleskin gloves when he's flitting through the underground library (more writing allusions!) like a 'shadow among shadows' looking for Sam down there.

So why the writing theme in the prologue?  Basically I've posited that trees, especially the weirwoods whose function it is to preserve/archive cultural memory, are to be equated with books.  Books are a writer's means of immortality.  So when Waymar is resurrected, assuming this figure does indeed symbolise the author on some level, GRRM is envisioning persisting in some form beyond his mortal years (P.S.  In Waymar strangling Will, GRRM also fantasizes on a subconscious level about vanquishing Shakespeare!  Of course every writer in some form desires to conquer the best writer who ever wrote in English, as authors are naturally competitive with each other for ascendance and longevity).

Other figures who notably wear full coats of sable/marten are Euron (who purloined it from Baelor Blacktyde after killing him), Ramsay Bolton, Lady Dustin, and Tommen.

I'm still unsure what to make of it all.  Any further ideas?

You know, I had this long response and it got eaten when I tried to send, that’s my luck for ya right there.  Anyway, I think you should reconsider what I presented to you when it comes to sable being an illusion to grey/green Ba’al cyle stuff.  Seriously.  Let’s start with Lady Dustin, she is easy.  She is the Lady of Barrowton (where the First King is buried) and wears the cloak when she goes down into the hollow hill of the crypts of Winterfell, she is also wearing a vair collar in the same scene which is a nod to heraldry.  Next we have Baelor Blacktyde we have a guy who has that Bael derivative I have mentioned in the OP and discussion thread.  He is also the only one without any hints or allusions to kinslaying, but is slain by our kinslayer extraordinaire, Euron.  Baelor is an ironborn with greenland ties and we find Baelor at the Kingsmoot at the hollow hill of “nagga” and wears green and black vairy which is a nod to heraldry.  Euron later takes the cloak from Baelor after he kills him.  Euron needs little explaining, he is our kinslaying bad guy with naughty greenseer associations. 

That brings us to Tommen, and really Tywin too. Dead Tywin gets some sable in the same scene.  What we need to look at is the context of the scene and what is being said by Cersei.  Cersei speaks not only of Tywins death, but also Joffrey’s and Robert’s.  Cersei reflects on Tywin’s death and the kinslaying manner of which it came about, wishing for her brother’s death and reveling in the thought of having his head (she is daydreaming of killing her brother).  There is also mention of Tommen filling his brother’s shoes and kingship now that his brother is dead.  When there is mention of Robert, we have to remember this is the death of a horned-storm king.  When you put that into context, it starts to line up pretty evenly with the Ba’al cycle theme and the ermine mentioned in the scene is yet another heraldry nod.

Before we address the Boltons, lets take a look at a few others, like this guy: 

“Gone,” cried Mormont’s raven, flapping up into the weirwood to perch above them. “Gone, gone, gone.” “There were wildlings at Whitetree only a year ago.” Thoren Smallwood looked more a lord than Mormont did, clad in Ser Jaremy Rykker’s gleaming black mail and embossed breastplate. His heavy cloak was richly trimmed with sable, and clasped with the crossed hammers of the Rykkers, wrought in silver. Ser Jaremy’s cloak, once … but the wight had claimed Ser Jaremy, and the Night’s Watch wasted nothing. “A year ago Robert was king, and the realm was at peace,” declared Jarman Buckwell, the square stolid man who commanded the scouts. “Much can change in a year’s time.”

Thoren is wearing the Sable cloak of his dead “brother”.  Thoren Smallwood literally has Thor in his name and is wearing hammers.  We also see a weirwood in this passage. Thoren’s surname is a nod to trees and Jarman’s surname is a nod to stags. There is also mention of Robert’s death, our horned-storm King.

We also have Denys Mallister, and with this passage, we have to again look at the context of what is happening.  Samwell is going to both Cotter Pyke and Mallister.  The two “brothers” hate each other.  This disdain stems from the fact that Pyke is Ironborn and Mallister is of the green lands of Seaguard that have been raided by the Ironborn for thousands of years.  They are grey/green brothers and natural foes.  Hobb is possibly a reference to horned-green guy Robin Goodfellow (aka Puck) (aka the Hobbgoblin).  The Hobbgoblin was a sort of trickster ….anyway Sam uses the disdain the two brothers have for each other for his benefit.  (the Hobb thing is something I am working on, old three finger shows up quite a bit on the wall so it has been slow to analyze).

Pyke laughed. “Who does that leave, Hobb? We could pick him, I suppose, only then who’s going to boil your mutton, Slayer? You look like a man who likes his bloody mutton.” There was nothing more to say. Defeated, Sam could only stammer out his thanks and take his leave. I will do better with Ser Denys, he tried to tell himself as he walked through the castle.

Samwell, it is not my habit to speak unkindly of my brothers, but let us be frank … the ironborn are a race of pirates and thieves, and Cotter Pyke was raping and murdering when he was still half a boy. Maester Harmune reads and writes his letters, and has for years. No, loath as I am to disappoint Maester Aemon, I could not in honor stand aside for Pyke of Eastwatch.” This time Sam was ready. “Might you for someone else? If it was someone more suitable?”

 

This next excerpt does a good job with the green Garth symbolism in addition to horns blowing.  We have green men coming through oaken doors, we see a mention of “heralds” and we see two brothers, one brother, Garlan, with a Garth name variation.  

A fanfare of brazen trumpets greeted each of the heroes as he stepped between the great oaken doors. Heralds cried his name and deeds for all to hear, and the noble knights and highborn ladies cheered as lustily as cutthroats at a cockfight. Pride of place was given to Mace Tyrell, the Lord of Highgarden, a once-powerful man gone to fat, yet still handsome. His sons followed him in; Ser Loras and his older brother Ser Garlan the Gallant. The three dressed alike, in green velvet trimmed with sable.

 

So now lets talk about the Boltons, because it is not just Ramsay wearing sable, but Lady Bolton is wearing sable as well.  This was the hardest one to figure out…where do the Boltons fit?  After much searching I almost gave up, then went to the wiki page of House Bolton for some last resort inspiration and this was what I found. 

Since the Long Night the Red Kings were bitter rivals of the Kings of Winter, the Starks of Winterfell. The Boltons achieved some successes against the Starks, with Kings Royce II and Royce IV burning Winterfell. The Boltons are said to have flayed the skins of several Stark lords and hung them in the Dreadfort. According to rumor, some Bolton lords wore the flayed skins of their enemies—including Starks, such as the son of Bael—as cloaks. This practice has given the Boltons a sinister reputation. The last Red King, Rogar the Huntsman, submitted to Winterfell when the Andal invasion of Westeros was also beginning. King Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf, and the Boltons defeated Argos Sevenstar and his Andals in the Battle of the Weeping Water.

The Chronicles of Longsister state that during the Rape of the Three Sisters by the Kings of Winter, which occurred two thousand years ago, Belthasar Bolton had a Pink Pavilion made from the flayed skins of a hundred Sistermen.

To start off, Balthazar is derived from the Phoenician Balat-shar-usur, meaning "Ba’al protects the King".  Yes, right off the bat we see Ba’al and Royce.  Insanely, there have been at least FIVE Royce Boltons.  It seems like a generational name like Durran or Brandon.  Roose is even possibly a variation of Royce.  If you want something connecting the Boltons to Waymar Royce and his sable cloak, well there you go.  In fact, the Boltons are well known for their cloaks, it is kind of “their thing”.  We even see a Bolton being snuck into the Story of Bael the Bard, and the Boltons making a cloak out of his kinslayer son.

 “Be quiet,” Abel warned her. Lord Ramsay descended from the dais to the dead boy. His father rose more slowly, pale-eyed, still-faced, solemn. “This was foul work.” For once Roose Bolton’s voice was loud enough to carry. “Where was the body found?” “Under that ruined keep, my lord,” replied Big Walder. “The one with the old gargoyles.” The boy’s gloves were caked with his cousin’s blood. “I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver.” “What man?” Ramsay demanded. “Give me his name. Point him out to me, boy, and I will make you a cloak of his skin.”

 

Looks like they are trying to skin some more kinslayers:devil:!

We also see the Boltons have been foes of the Starks since the Long Night, now that is more than a little suspicious.  So if we think about the Long Night lasting a generation, whatever the Starks were doing during the Long Night, they were also fighting these guys.  Later in history, we also see mention of the Boltons making common cause with Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf.  This is the same Theon that smashed and drove out the Ironborn from the North.  The same Theon whom Theon Greyjoy calls his “namesake”.  Theon Greyjoy has been a prisoner of the Boltons for three books.   THEY are the ones that made Theon corpse-like, well at least Ramsay is anyway.  btw, Ba’al is depicted as either a bull or a ram…get it?  RAMsay.   

I am sure you would agree with me that a “cloak” is another way of saying to hide or keep hidden, and I think that is exactly what GRRM is doing with the Boltons.  I can’t say the Boltons are descendants of a brother in this grey/green Ba’al cyle, but I can say the Boltons were there and played their part in the grey/green Long Night.  Who knows? Maybe they even have some relation with House Royce as well?  Rogar the Huntsman/ Robar Royce, Robar I Royce, Robar II Royce…maybe this will be something else to look into later. 

When reading the prologue, remember we are starting our story with brothers.  Pay attention to our grey-eyed greenboy with the sable cloak.  Take note of the grey-green sentinels and what the wind is doing to the trees and to that cloak.  Keep in mind Gared is a Garth variation, he is also much older than the other two and has been a brother for 40 years meaning he is like a grey Garth, and Will is a guy stuck at the wall for poaching stags on Mallister lands again grey/green.  It is all there, even a resurrection of one brother.  

After learning certain gemstones and celestial bodies corresponded with colors in heraldry, I realized this may be something GRRM has drawn from since gemstones and celestial bodies have their role in the series.  Knowing GRRM is well versed in heraldry, I was quite interested when I learned sable is a color in heraldry and that Saturn corresponded with it.  Saturn/Cronus being our sickle wielding, grey bearded, Father time guy with agricultural associations.  The grey/green man himself @Unchained, I think I am getting my Cronus ideas straightened out when it comes to sable.  SABLE--->ABLE----->ABEL

Edited by Crowfood's Daughter

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:23 PM, LmL said:

.

@Crowfood's Daughter, here is your Grey King as a reborn, weakened sun:

So, WF, a moon city, burns, and a dragon hatches, fire eats the stars, smoke, ash cloud, a long night. Wails and screams and crash on the earth. Now "man" is prowling under trees and getting covered in the blowing ash. The two wolves a reborn from the trees, and they are brothers. And there's our grey, smoky, diminished sun. 

Boom! :cheers:

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Posted (edited)

 

@LmL

Emesh and Enten, Cain and Abel

Many scholars have pointed to the similarities between the Sumerian tale of Emesh and Enten and the biblical tale of Cain and Abel.  Samuel Noah Kramer called the Emesh and Enten tale "the closest extant Sumerian parallel to the Biblical Cain and Abel story".

In the Sumerian tale, the god Enlil has sex with the Earth, which gives birth to two boys named Emesh and Enten. Emesh is a personification of summer and Enten a personification of winter. Each brother brings an offering to Enlil, but Enten becomes angry with Emesh and the two begin an argument. In Genesis, Adam has sex with Eve, who gives birth to two boys named Cain and Abel. Cain worked the soil and Abel kept flocks. Each brother brings an offering to Yahweh. Yahweh looks favorably on Abel's offering but not on Cain's, so Cain becomes angry.

 

Also found this:

The direwolf banner of House Stark flapped and fluttered atop the lance he bore. Catelyn could not see the sea from here, but she could feel how close it was. The smell of salt was heavy on the wind gusting from the east. Stannis Baratheon’s foragers had cut the trees down for his siege towers and catapults. Catelyn wondered how long the grove had stood, and whether Ned had rested here when he led his host south to lift the last siege of Storm’s End. He had won a great victory that day, all the greater for being bloodless.

 

Edited by Crowfood's Daughter

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19 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

You know, I had this long response and it got eaten when I tried to send, that’s my luck for ya right there.  Anyway, I think you should reconsider what I presented to you when it comes to sable being an illusion to grey/green Ba’al cyle stuff.  Seriously.  Let’s start with Lady Dustin, she is easy.  She is the Lady of Barrowton (where the First King is buried) and wears the cloak when she goes down into the hollow hill of the crypts of Winterfell, she is also wearing a vair collar in the same scene which is a nod to heraldry.  Next we have Baelor Blacktyde we have a guy who has that Bael derivative I have mentioned in the OP and discussion thread.  He is also the only one without any hints or allusions to kinslaying, but is slain by our kinslayer extraordinaire, Euron.  Baelor is an ironborn with greenland ties and we find Baelor at the Kingsmoot at the hollow hill of “nagga” and wears green and black vairy which is a nod to heraldry.  Euron later takes the cloak from Baelor after he kills him.  Euron needs little explaining, he is our kinslaying bad guy with naughty greenseer associations. 

That brings us to Tommen, and really Tywin too. Dead Tywin gets some sable in the same scene.  What we need to look at is the context of the scene and what is being said by Cersei.  Cersei speaks not only of Tywins death, but also Joffrey’s and Robert’s.  Cersei reflects on Tywin’s death and the kinslaying manner of which it came about, wishing for her brother’s death and reveling in the thought of having his head (she is daydreaming of killing her brother).  There is also mention of Tommen filling his brother’s shoes and kingship now that his brother is dead.  When there is mention of Robert, we have to remember this is the death of a horned-storm king.  When you put that into context, it starts to line up pretty evenly with the Ba’al cycle theme and the ermine mentioned in the scene is yet another heraldry nod.

Before we address the Boltons, lets take a look at a few others, like this guy: 

“Gone,” cried Mormont’s raven, flapping up into the weirwood to perch above them. “Gone, gone, gone.” “There were wildlings at Whitetree only a year ago.” Thoren Smallwood looked more a lord than Mormont did, clad in Ser Jaremy Rykker’s gleaming black mail and embossed breastplate. His heavy cloak was richly trimmed with sable, and clasped with the crossed hammers of the Rykkers, wrought in silver. Ser Jaremy’s cloak, once … but the wight had claimed Ser Jaremy, and the Night’s Watch wasted nothing. “A year ago Robert was king, and the realm was at peace,” declared Jarman Buckwell, the square stolid man who commanded the scouts. “Much can change in a year’s time.”

Thoren is wearing the Sable cloak of his dead “brother”.  Thoren Smallwood literally has Thor in his name and is wearing hammers.  We also see a weirwood in this passage. Thoren’s surname is a nod to trees and Jarman’s surname is a nod to stags. There is also mention of Robert’s death, our horned-storm King.

We also have Denys Mallister, and with this passage, we have to again look at the context of what is happening.  Samwell is going to both Cotter Pyke and Mallister.  The two “brothers” hate each other.  This disdain stems from the fact that Pyke is Ironborn and Mallister is of the green lands of Seaguard that have been raided by the Ironborn for thousands of years.  They are grey/green brothers and natural foes.  Hobb is possibly a reference to horned-green guy Robin Goodfellow (aka Puck) (aka the Hobbgoblin).  The Hobbgoblin was a sort of trickster ….anyway Sam uses the disdain the two brothers have for each other for his benefit.  (the Hobb thing is something I am working on, old three finger shows up quite a bit on the wall so it has been slow to analyze).

Pyke laughed. “Who does that leave, Hobb? We could pick him, I suppose, only then who’s going to boil your mutton, Slayer? You look like a man who likes his bloody mutton.” There was nothing more to say. Defeated, Sam could only stammer out his thanks and take his leave. I will do better with Ser Denys, he tried to tell himself as he walked through the castle.

Samwell, it is not my habit to speak unkindly of my brothers, but let us be frank … the ironborn are a race of pirates and thieves, and Cotter Pyke was raping and murdering when he was still half a boy. Maester Harmune reads and writes his letters, and has for years. No, loath as I am to disappoint Maester Aemon, I could not in honor stand aside for Pyke of Eastwatch.” This time Sam was ready. “Might you for someone else? If it was someone more suitable?”

 

This next excerpt does a good job with the green Garth symbolism in addition to horns blowing.  We have green men coming through oaken doors, we see a mention of “heralds” and we see two brothers, one brother, Garlan, with a Garth name variation.  

A fanfare of brazen trumpets greeted each of the heroes as he stepped between the great oaken doors. Heralds cried his name and deeds for all to hear, and the noble knights and highborn ladies cheered as lustily as cutthroats at a cockfight. Pride of place was given to Mace Tyrell, the Lord of Highgarden, a once-powerful man gone to fat, yet still handsome. His sons followed him in; Ser Loras and his older brother Ser Garlan the Gallant. The three dressed alike, in green velvet trimmed with sable.

 

So now lets talk about the Boltons, because it is not just Ramsay wearing sable, but Lady Bolton is wearing sable as well.  This was the hardest one to figure out…where do the Boltons fit?  After much searching I almost gave up, then went to the wiki page of House Bolton for some last resort inspiration and this was what I found. 

Since the Long Night the Red Kings were bitter rivals of the Kings of Winter, the Starks of Winterfell. The Boltons achieved some successes against the Starks, with Kings Royce II and Royce IV burning Winterfell. The Boltons are said to have flayed the skins of several Stark lords and hung them in the Dreadfort. According to rumor, some Bolton lords wore the flayed skins of their enemies—including Starks, such as the son of Bael—as cloaks. This practice has given the Boltons a sinister reputation. The last Red King, Rogar the Huntsman, submitted to Winterfell when the Andal invasion of Westeros was also beginning. King Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf, and the Boltons defeated Argos Sevenstar and his Andals in the Battle of the Weeping Water.

The Chronicles of Longsister state that during the Rape of the Three Sisters by the Kings of Winter, which occurred two thousand years ago, Belthasar Bolton had a Pink Pavilion made from the flayed skins of a hundred Sistermen.

To start off, Balthazar is derived from the Phoenician Balat-shar-usur, meaning "Ba’al protects the King".  Yes, right off the bat we see Ba’al and Royce.  Insanely, there have been at least FIVE Royce Boltons.  It seems like a generational name like Durran or Brandon.  Roose is even possibly a variation of Royce.  If you want something connecting the Boltons to Waymar Royce and his sable cloak, well there you go.  In fact, the Boltons are well known for their cloaks, it is kind of “their thing”.  We even see a Bolton being snuck into the Story of Bael the Bard, and the Boltons making a cloak out of his kinslayer son.

 “Be quiet,” Abel warned her. Lord Ramsay descended from the dais to the dead boy. His father rose more slowly, pale-eyed, still-faced, solemn. “This was foul work.” For once Roose Bolton’s voice was loud enough to carry. “Where was the body found?” “Under that ruined keep, my lord,” replied Big Walder. “The one with the old gargoyles.” The boy’s gloves were caked with his cousin’s blood. “I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver.” “What man?” Ramsay demanded. “Give me his name. Point him out to me, boy, and I will make you a cloak of his skin.”

 

Looks like they are trying to skin some more kinslayers:devil:!

We also see the Boltons have been foes of the Starks since the Long Night, now that is more than a little suspicious.  So if we think about the Long Night lasting a generation, whatever the Starks were doing during the Long Night, they were also fighting these guys.  Later in history, we also see mention of the Boltons making common cause with Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf.  This is the same Theon that smashed and drove out the Ironborn from the North.  The same Theon whom Theon Greyjoy calls his “namesake”.  Theon Greyjoy has been a prisoner of the Boltons for three books.   THEY are the ones that made Theon corpse-like, well at least Ramsay is anyway.  btw, Ba’al is depicted as either a bull or a ram…get it?  RAMsay.   

I am sure you would agree with me that a “cloak” is another way of saying to hide or keep hidden, and I think that is exactly what GRRM is doing with the Boltons.  I can’t say the Boltons are descendants of a brother in this grey/green Ba’al cyle, but I can say the Boltons were there and played their part in the grey/green Long Night.  Who knows? Maybe they even have some relation with House Royce as well?  Rogar the Huntsman/ Robar Royce, Robar I Royce, Robar II Royce…maybe this will be something else to look into later. 

When reading the prologue, remember we are starting our story with brothers.  Pay attention to our grey-eyed greenboy with the sable cloak.  Take note of the grey-green sentinels and what the wind is doing to the trees and to that cloak.  Keep in mind Gared is a Garth variation, he is also much older than the other two and has been a brother for 40 years meaning he is like a grey Garth, and Will is a guy stuck at the wall for poaching stags on Mallister lands again grey/green.  It is all there, even a resurrection of one brother.  

After learning certain gemstones and celestial bodies corresponded with colors in heraldry, I realized this may be something GRRM has drawn from since gemstones and celestial bodies have their role in the series.  Knowing GRRM is well versed in heraldry, I was quite interested when I learned sable is a color in heraldry and that Saturn corresponded with it.  Saturn/Cronus being our sickle wielding, grey bearded, Father time guy with agricultural associations.  The grey/green man himself @Unchained, I think I am getting my Cronus ideas straightened out when it comes to sable.  SABLE--->ABLE----->ABEL

 

There is certainly a lot to think about here, and you are definitely onto something that could be pretty big.  I am not sure what to make of it yet. The whole Uranus-Cronus-Zeus story has a theme of killing your father, then becoming him.  Gaia got Cronus to castrate Uranus because he imprisoned some of his children with her inside her.  Then Gaia helped hide Zeus to keep him from being consumed and trapped inside Cronus.  Then angry at Zeus for his killing of her children, the Giants, she bore Typhon to challenge Zeus.  She sometimes bore the Giants in the first place to punish Zeus to his attack of the Titans.  So basically, Gaia just wants peace, but all the men kill each other.  This seems to be the same theme behind the grey-green struggle.  The Grey King killed Garth, but then became grey as a result, meaning he was most likely not grey at the time that he did it.  If Garth has tore down the moon and transformed himself into something like Stannis or resurrected Renly when the Grey king killed him, then the Grey King may have been a green person fighting a greyish Garth.  Or, it may have been nothing like that, lots of possibilities.  However, there is a theme of things like ruling, joining the Nightswatch, or being Lord Cammander of the Kingsguard turning someone grey and aging them.  Ruling aged Balon and Robert, his growing a beard is his version of becoming more grey.  All of @LmL's green zombie stuff is about green boys who stink of summer becoming greybeards in the Nightswatch.  Jaime goes from being a young, strong sun to a weak, crippled white winter one after becoming LC of the KG.  However, there are some interesting possible exceptions who wear sable cloaks.  Ramsey forces Theon to become corpse-like.  Perhaps we should be thinking of Ramsay coming into power at the expense of Theon who serves as the sacrifice.  Euron is all about getting his brothers to serve as the sacrifice for his ambitions.  He has not aged, but Victarion has grey in his hair.  This makes me think of Dorian Gray.  He was interested in a hedonistic lifestyle (King Robert) and sold his soul to live forever while his painting aged in his stead.                   

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6 hours ago, Unchained said:

 

There is certainly a lot to think about here, and you are definitely onto something that could be pretty big.  I am not sure what to make of it yet. The whole Uranus-Cronus-Zeus story has a theme of killing your father, then becoming him.  Gaia got Cronus to castrate Uranus because he imprisoned some of his children with her inside her.  Then Gaia helped hide Zeus to keep him from being consumed and trapped inside Cronus.  Then angry at Zeus for his killing of her children, the Giants, she bore Typhon to challenge Zeus.  She sometimes bore the Giants in the first place to punish Zeus to his attack of the Titans.  So basically, Gaia just wants peace, but all the men kill each other.  This seems to be the same theme behind the grey-green struggle.  The Grey King killed Garth, but then became grey as a result, meaning he was most likely not grey at the time that he did it.  If Garth has tore down the moon and transformed himself into something like Stannis or resurrected Renly when the Grey king killed him, then the Grey King may have been a green person fighting a greyish Garth.  Or, it may have been nothing like that, lots of possibilities.  However, there is a theme of things like ruling, joining the Nightswatch, or being Lord Cammander of the Kingsguard turning someone grey and aging them.  Ruling aged Balon and Robert, his growing a beard is his version of becoming more grey.  All of @LmL's green zombie stuff is about green boys who stink of summer becoming greybeards in the Nightswatch.  Jaime goes from being a young, strong sun to a weak, crippled white winter one after becoming LC of the KG.  However, there are some interesting possible exceptions who wear sable cloaks.  Ramsey forces Theon to become corpse-like.  Perhaps we should be thinking of Ramsay coming into power at the expense of Theon who serves as the sacrifice.  Euron is all about getting his brothers to serve as the sacrifice for his ambitions.  He has not aged, but Victarion has grey in his hair.  This makes me think of Dorian Gray.  He was interested in a hedonistic lifestyle (King Robert) and sold his soul to live forever while his painting aged in his stead.                   

This somehow reminds me of Lancel's mentioning to Jaime that through his jealously he wanted to be Jaime, and Theon's remarks to Lady Dustin that he wanted to be a Stark.  The conversation played out in the crypts after she had donned her cloak.  It does seem that is the case for quite a bit of the kinslaying we see.  The younger brother wants to fill the role of the older.  I need to read Dorian Gray, I have been oblivious to this story and sounds very intriguing.  Making a deal with the devil always makes for good reading. 

BTW, with your trapped greenseers ideas, you may want to look at the brothers Arryk and Erryk Cargyll.  They were two brothers who killed each other in the Dance of Dragons.  One was fighting for the Greens and the Other for the Blacks.  Their sigil is a golden goose, a bizarre looking sigil if you ask me.  Have you ever read the tale of the golden goose?  There were three brothers who were sent out to chop down some trees.  The first guy rebuked a grey man asking for help and met an unfortunate accident.  Same thing happened with the second brother.  The third brother was kind to the grey man and when he chopped down a tree, he found that he had freed a golden goose. The story reminded me of what you were mentioning of trees needing to be destroyed in order to free the greenseer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Goose  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Cargyll

220px-Simpleton_finds_The_Golden_Goose_-

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13 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

This somehow reminds me of Lancel's mentioning to Jaime that through his jealously he wanted to be Jaime, and Theon's remarks to Lady Dustin that he wanted to be a Stark.  The conversation played out in the crypts after she had donned her cloak.  It does seem that is the case for quite a bit of the kinslaying we see.  The younger brother wants to fill the role of the older.  I need to read Dorian Gray, I have been oblivious to this story and sounds very intriguing.  Making a deal with the devil always makes for good reading. 

BTW, with your trapped greenseers ideas, you may want to look at the brothers Arryk and Erryk Cargyll.  They were two brothers who killed each other in the Dance of Dragons.  One was fighting for the Greens and the Other for the Blacks.  Their sigil is a golden goose, a bizarre looking sigil if you ask me.  Have you ever read the tale of the golden goose?  There were three brothers who were sent out to chop down some trees.  The first guy rebuked a grey man asking for help and met an unfortunate accident.  Same thing happened with the second brother.  The third brother was kind to the grey man and when he chopped down a tree, he found that he had freed a golden goose. The story reminded me of what you were mentioning of trees needing to be destroyed in order to free the greenseer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Goose  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Cargyll

220px-Simpleton_finds_The_Golden_Goose_-

In some versions of the legend, Merlin (his body or soul) ends up trapped in a tree...

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

This somehow reminds me of Lancel's mentioning to Jaime that through his jealously he wanted to be Jaime, and Theon's remarks to Lady Dustin that he wanted to be a Stark.  The conversation played out in the crypts after she had donned her cloak.  It does seem that is the case for quite a bit of the kinslaying we see.  The younger brother wants to fill the role of the older.  I need to read Dorian Gray, I have been oblivious to this story and sounds very intriguing.  Making a deal with the devil always makes for good reading. 

BTW, with your trapped greenseers ideas, you may want to look at the brothers Arryk and Erryk Cargyll.  They were two brothers who killed each other in the Dance of Dragons.  One was fighting for the Greens and the Other for the Blacks.  Their sigil is a golden goose, a bizarre looking sigil if you ask me.  Have you ever read the tale of the golden goose?  There were three brothers who were sent out to chop down some trees.  The first guy rebuked a grey man asking for help and met an unfortunate accident.  Same thing happened with the second brother.  The third brother was kind to the grey man and when he chopped down a tree, he found that he had freed a golden goose. The story reminded me of what you were mentioning of trees needing to be destroyed in order to free the greenseer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Goose  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Cargyll

220px-Simpleton_finds_The_Golden_Goose_-

I have never read the book, I am only passing familiar with it.  I just read a summary, and it did remind me of a few aspects of these books, although I am not certain of most and they are all over the map.  Nothing concrete jumped out at me as Euron or Ramsay who I was mostly looking for, but there were things that brought them to mind.  I will just mention the main one I am relatively sure of about someone else.  Dorian's hedonistic life, typical of fertility and storm gods (in fact he is painted as mythical characters), and the painting of him when he is young, that ages instead of him, reminds me a lot of Illyrio with his statue of himself while young.  Dorian even learns the lifestyle from a yellow book, which is the color Illyrio and his corruption is most associated with.  

 

Also, no I had not put together golden goose connection.  Gold tends to represent the sun's energy.  So it it that when brothers kill each other, the sun's power is released from a tree?  The trapped individuals are fiery, solar,  horned lords.  I am not sure, but that does seem to be part of the puzzle.  

Edited by Unchained

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On 3/20/2017 at 7:05 PM, Unchained said:

I have never read the book, I am only passing familiar with it.  I just read a summary, and it did remind me of a few aspects of these books, although I am not certain of most and they are all over the map.  Nothing concrete jumped out at me as Euron or Ramsay who I was mostly looking for, but there were things that brought them to mind.  I will just mention the main one I am relatively sure of about someone else.  Dorian's hedonistic life, typical of fertility and storm gods (in fact he is painted as mythical characters), and the painting of him when he is young, that ages instead of him, reminds me a lot of Illyrio with his statue of himself while young.  Dorian even learns the lifestyle from a yellow book, which is the color Illyrio and his corruption is most associated with.  

 

Also, no I had not put together golden goose connection.  Gold tends to represent the sun's energy.  So it it that when brothers kill each other, the sun's power is released from a tree?  The trapped individuals are fiery, solar,  horned lords.  I am not sure, but that does seem to be part of the puzzle.  

Yes. Basically, the weirwoods = the moon or Nissa Nissa. The comet brings the fire into the moon, impregnates the moon. The greenseer is like the lightning bolt that sets the tree on fire - recall how Bran plays the role of the falling lightning bolt AND the tree struck by lightning. Once the bolt hits the tree, they merge to become 'burning tree.' Once the comet hits the moon, the moon "drinks the sun's fire" and they become fiery moon meteors, the child of sun and moon. The weirwood with a face represents a conjunction of greenseer and tree. The faces - I am certain at this point - are the faces of those imprisoned. Think about it like a horror movie where the monsters are trapped in the walls. Stranger things did it. 

Think of the Bloodraven model - he's the dragon meteor / thunderbolt that hit the tree. 

Sometimes I think that what we think of as the weirwoodnet is not really the tree consciousness, but something more like the mind of Azor Ahai or the alien mind of the meteors or something weir like that. Or perhaps you might say that "the net" is the joint consciousness created when the greenseer first went into the trees. What I am trying to figure out is whether or not AA forced his way in and then got trapped, or was lured in and trapped. 

It sucks that our conversation here has gotten so far ahead of what I can do on the podcast - I have found a lot of clues about these ideas we've been talking about but I have put them into the new podcast scripts and I don't won't to dump thousands of words here and spoil essays. What I can say is that our collective discussion around these issues has borne a lot of fruit, and really helped some things to come together. I think you guys will really like the next few pods... particularly all the stuff I found regarding ash trees and AA as an "ember in the ashes."  That's what Mel says:

Quote

It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze.

But we know weirdrasil is an "ash" tree, so to speak, so this is really talking about AA inside the net. 

Beric knows what's up:

Quote

Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest.

Dany knows what's up:

Quote

 

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away … yet she was unhurt.

 

Renly knows what's up - I owe someone a hat tip for this one, was it @Blue Tiger?

Quote

They came up the roseroad and along the riverbank, through all the fields Stannis had burned, the ashes puffing up around their boots and turning all their armor grey, but oh! the banners must have been bright, the golden rose and golden lion and all the others, the Marbrand tree and the Rowan, Tarly's huntsman and Redwyne's grapes and Lady Oakheart's leaf.

Robert:

Quote

Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes." Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on.

Lightbringer, of course:

Quote

Stannis peeled off the glove and let it fall to the ground. The gods in the pyre were scarcely recognizable anymore. The head fell off the Smith with a puff of ash and embers. Melisandre sang in the tongue of Asshai, her voice rising and falling like the tides of the sea. Stannis untied his singed leather cape and listened in silence. Thrust in the ground, Lightbringer still glowed ruddy hot, but the flames that clung to the sword were dwindling and dying.

...and you sort of get the idea. 

It's definitely some part of Azor Ahai who is inside the net. Although he might not be alone. And he might be better thought of as the NK at this point. That's another idea I am starting to entertain - NK lives on only inside the net, but can somehow affect the real world, raise the dead, create Others, something like that. 

Because I love you all:

Quote

Jon glimpsed the red wanderer above, watching them through the leafless branches of great trees :devil::devil::devil::devil::devil: as they made their way beneath. The Thief, the free folk called it. The best time to steal a woman was when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, Ygritte had always claimed. 

 

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11 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

@ravenous reader and @Unchained.  I just found something pretty cool linking Saturn and Baal in more intimately woven detail. 

 

Honestly, I had a hard time following that, not smart enough.  What I managed to gather is that Baal, Saturn/Kronus, and Moloch are all the same basic thing.  Moloch was not someone I had ever looked at before, so I googled him.  He was a Canaanite god who was fond of child sacrifice (Abraham and Isaac?), and I think he deserves a good look.  If the big bad trapped in the trees is based on him, then that would explain the mass sacrifice on the isle of faces, the young of the children, to call down the hammer of the waters.  They were sacrificed to Moloch via fire.  I found two ways that this was done.  First, they could be put in a bronze pair of hands sloping down and roll into the fire pit.  Wikipedia says these people would 'die smiling' due to their body curling up in the the heat.  We could connect this to Theon, who is always smiling, being a sacrifice for sable cloak (Moloch/Saturn) wearing Ramsay ( @ravenous reader and @GloubieBoulga do you think this could be the origin or at least connected to the slaughter/laughter word play).  Second, and most interesting, is that they could be put in a bronze bull and heated.  This is of interest for two reasons I have found.  Some scholars think that the actual history of this ritual was that of a cleansing ritual rather that a sacrifice and that the participant would survive, and fire as a cleansing element is mentioned in Dany's dreams as well as other places.  Also, this brings to mind @LmL's Tyrion Targaryan essay about Sun Wukong being trapped in a vessal that was heated, but surviving and coming out stronger.  I want to cannect this to Tyrion in another way.  Moloch comes from a base word meaning 'King'.  He was worshiped in Carthage, an old enemy of Rome whitch seems to be the inspiration for Ghis, as well as in a city called Tyr.  Fun fact, people from Tyr are known as Tyrians.  Tyr was an island fortress that became rich after learning how to extract purple dye from a sea snail.  The dye was very difficult to get making purple clothing expensive and only belonging to royalty.  Tyrosh also began as an island fort and became rich after learning how to extract a deep dark reddish dye from sea snails.  There was also a snail found near Braavos that made purple dye.  As for heraldry, this all may (big emphasis on may), be about the different symbolism behind different colored roses.  White roses are for innocence and purity, blue are for the unattainable and the impossible, red for love and passion, and black for death.  The 'War of the Roses', which the Stark/Lannister war was based on, involved this.  The Yorks were represented by the white rose, like House Stark's white sigil background.  The Lancasters were represented by the red rose, like House Lannister's red sigil background.  These would correspond to Argent and Gules in heraldry.  The Greyjoys and Targaryans both have sable sigil backgrounds, and the Royces have it in their sigil as well.          

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2 hours ago, Unchained said:

Honestly, I had a hard time following that, not smart enough.  What I managed to gather is that Baal, Saturn/Kronus, and Moloch are all the same basic thing.  Moloch was not someone I had ever looked at before, so I googled him.  He was a Canaanite god who was fond of child sacrifice (Abraham and Isaac?), and I think he deserves a good look.  If the big bad trapped in the trees is based on him, then that would explain the mass sacrifice on the isle of faces, the young of the children, to call down the hammer of the waters.  They were sacrificed to Moloch via fire.  I found two ways that this was done.  First, they could be put in a bronze pair of hands sloping down and roll into the fire pit.  Wikipedia says these people would 'die smiling' due to their body curling up in the the heat.  We could connect this to Theon, who is always smiling, being a sacrifice for sable cloak (Moloch/Saturn) wearing Ramsay ( @ravenous reader and @GloubieBoulga do you think this could be the origin or at least connected to the slaughter/laughter word play).  Second, and most interesting, is that they could be put in a bronze bull and heated.  This is of interest for two reasons I have found.  Some scholars think that the actual history of this ritual was that of a cleansing ritual rather that a sacrifice and that the participant would survive, and fire as a cleansing element is mentioned in Dany's dreams as well as other places.  Also, this brings to mind @LmL's Tyrion Targaryan essay about Sun Wukong being trapped in a vessal that was heated, but surviving and coming out stronger.  I want to cannect this to Tyrion in another way.  Moloch comes from a base word meaning 'King'.  He was worshiped in Carthage, an old enemy of Rome whitch seems to be the inspiration for Ghis, as well as in a city called Tyr.  Fun fact, people from Tyr are known as Tyrians.  Tyr was an island fortress that became rich after learning how to extract purple dye from a sea snail.  The dye was very difficult to get making purple clothing expensive and only belonging to royalty.  Tyrosh also began as an island fort and became rich after learning how to extract a deep dark reddish dye from sea snails.  There was also a snail found near Braavos that made purple dye.  As for heraldry, this all may (big emphasis on may), be about the different symbolism behind different colored roses.  White roses are for innocence and purity, blue are for the unattainable and the impossible, red for love and passion, and black for death.  The 'War of the Roses', which the Stark/Lannister war was based on, involved this.  The Yorks were represented by the white rose, like House Stark's white sigil background.  The Lancasters were represented by the red rose, like House Lannister's red sigil background.  These would correspond to Argent and Gules in heraldry.  The Greyjoys and Targaryans both have sable sigil backgrounds, and the Royces have it in their sigil as well.          

Yes, I watched it twice with the speed slowed to 0.5 in order to get everything.  What I took from it is the overlapping theme that Ba'al/Saturn and Cronus are much interchangeable as deities.  The child sacrifice reminds me of Nagga feeding on Krakens and Leviathans, although with the ASOIAF storyline, blood sacrifice is not specific to only children.  With the heraldry, I don't think this is the case for the colors of the sigils or all mentions of heraldry in the books.  I think GRRM borrows what he likes and scraps what he doesn't and has many ways to clue the reader in on the grey/green struggle, the sable as a clue being one of them in certain passages. Ba'al and Cain/Abel seem to be what he borrowed from the most when it comes to the kinslaying aspect of this topic, so learning Saturn (Cronus)and Ba'al are something of the same deity is a neat little nugget when examining the sable cloaks which I see as more or less  representing the grey/green Ba'al cycle theme of the Long Night. 

He shrieked for mercy and cursed the red woman and began to laugh hysterically. Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers. He had ordered out two hundred men, Mounted in solemn sable ranks with tall spears in hand, they had drawn up their hoods to shadow their faces … and hide the fact that so many were greybeards and green boys.  The free folk feared the Watch. Jon wanted them to take that fear with them to their new homes south of the Wall. The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame. Clutching the bars of his cage with bound hands, Mance sobbed and begged. When the fire reached him he did a little dance. 

BTW. Have you checked out the story of Moses?  I know you were looking at some stories of people trapped in a wooden box and flung into the ocean but eventually being saved.  Moses was placed in a wicker basket to avoid being killed and was saved by ehyptian royalty.  He later had his epiphany discovering the true meaning of his destiny after the whole burning bush thing.  Might have something of interest.

Edited by Crowfood's Daughter

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2 hours ago, LmL said:

 

Renly knows what's up - I owe someone a hat tip for this one, was it @Blue Tiger?

 

I think it was part of the discussion between me and @Unchained

 

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