Crowfood's Daughter

The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

237 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, LmL said:

re: the robin and the wren...

"the day they hanged black robin." What's that about? Robin is the summer king, so when he's hanged, he becomes a black robin? Dark solar king? Works for me....

Blackbird's oarsmen sang that before the mermaids lament.  possibly a hint at chronology?

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1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

He was one of the first KGs... Robin (Oak king) is a summer symbol... But dark robin is of winter. Like wren. So we have story of guy named Robyn Darklyn 'Darkrobyn'  who joins the KG ('Others').

In Aegon's KG we also find:

What about implying about the nature of Robin, ya know like Darkstar?  Dark Robin and Black Robin might imply a malign nature as well.  Maybe like the sinister deity that Maester Yandel says is mostly forgotten?

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8 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

He was one of the first KGs... Robin (Oak king) is a summer symbol... But dark robin is of winter. Like wren. So we have story of guy named Robyn Darklyn 'Darkrobyn'  who joins the KG ('Others').

In Aegon's KG we also find:

  •  

A Swyft of Cornfield would have a summer/Oak King/John Barleycorn kind of symbolism, but Bastard of Cornfield would be a winter figure. 

That's quite a collection of names. We've got to brothers goode, AKA goodbothers. One is a Gregor, like the mountain, and the other is a Gryphon. That Humphrey fellow sounds a bit like Humpty Dumpty comma and egg which cracked open, and of course he's a hedge Knight, meaning he lives under trees, and he's a mummer, which is like a fool. We've got the first sea dragon Corlys, and of course see dragons refer to Dragon greesneers. We've got the aforementioned dark Robin, who's hanging is suggested by the song, a man by the name of root, which makes him a treat person, then we have a hill person from a cornfield. In other words, these all sound like green men and or Dragon people, and I think that when green men become Dragon people, that makes them a king of winter, death figure. This gets back to the idea of AA being the NK and making the others

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8 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

What about implying about the nature of Robin, ya know like Darkstar?  Dark Robin and Black Robin might imply a malign nature as well.  Maybe like the sinister deity that Maester Yandel says is mostly forgotten?

Yes, that's it exactly. Robin is usually the summer figure, but a black Robin is an inversion, very like my dark solar King idea. The Daynes are drenched in Morningstar symbolism, which is all about bringing the day, and are most famous Dayne is Sir Arthur, who is in every sense a white knight. But the Daynes also give us these other type of figures, Dark Star Gerold Dayne as well as Vorian Dayne, who was called The Sword of the Evening. I think we're seeing something similar with the horned Lords - there's a bifurcation, and they can give us two opposite types of fellow, and those two opposite types or something like two sides of the same coin, like yin and yang - opposite, but still two parts of a whole. 

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9 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Blackbird's oarsmen sang that before the mermaids lament.  possibly a hint at chronology?

That fits my chronology, yes. The hanging of the black solar figure should correlate with the moon plummeting from the sky and becoming a drowned a goddess. There is all kinds of sadness, tears, and wailing associated with the dying of moon Maiden, and we have a Valyrian steel sword named Lamentation. There may even be a lamb play on words there, since the Valyrians were sheepherders.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, LmL said:

That's quite a collection of names. We've got to brothers goode, AKA goodbothers. One is a Gregor, like the mountain, and the other is a Gryphon. That Humphrey fellow sounds a bit like Humpty Dumpty comma and egg which cracked open, and of course he's a hedge Knight, meaning he lives under trees, and he's a mummer, which is like a fool. We've got the first sea dragon Corlys, and of course see dragons refer to Dragon greesneers. We've got the aforementioned dark Robin, who's hanging is suggested by the song, a man by the name of root, which makes him a treat person, then we have a hill person from a cornfield. In other words, these all sound like green men and or Dragon people, and I think that when green men become Dragon people, that makes them a king of winter, death figure. This gets back to the idea of AA being the NK and making the others

Speaking of Corlys Velaryon, the second individual bearing that name is very interesting in terms of symbolism as well:

But against all this, Laenor had one shining advantage: he was the son of Lord Corlys Velaryon, the Sea Snake, the wealthiest man in the Seven Kingdoms. The Sea Snake was named for Ser Corlys Velaryon, the first Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but his fame did not come from his skill with sword and lance and shield but for his voyages across the seas of the world, seeking new horizons. He was a scion of House Velaryon: a family of old and storied Valyrian heritage who had come to Westeros before the Targaryens, as the histories agree, and who often provided the bulk of the royal fleet. So many Velaryons served as lord admiral and master of ships that it was, at times, almost considered a hereditary office.
Lord Corlys traveled widely, both to the south and to the north, and once sought for a rumored passage around the top of Westeros—though he turned back his ship, the Ice Wolf, when he found only frozen seas and giant icebergs. But his greatest voyages were upon the Sea Snake, by which name he would later be known. Many ships of Westeros had sailed as far as Qarth to trade for spices and silk, but he dared to go farther, reaching the fabled lands of Yi Ti and Leng, whose wealth doubled that of House Velaryon in a single voyage.
Nine great voyages were made upon the Sea Snake, and on the last, Corlys filled the ship's hold with gold and bought twenty more ships at Qarth, loading them with spices, elephants, and the finest silk. Some were lost, and the elephants died at sea, according to Maester Mathis's The Nine Voyages, but the wealth that remained made House Velaryon the richest in the realm—richer even than the Lannisters and Hightowers, for a time.
Corlys Velaryon became a lord after his grandsire's death and used his wealth to raise a new seat, High Tide, to replace the damp, cramped castle Driftmark and house the ancient Driftwood Throne—the high seat of the Velaryons, which legend claims was given to them by the Merling King to conclude a pact. So much trade came to flow to and from Driftmark that the towns of Hull and Spicetown sprang up, becoming the chief ports of trade in Blackwater Bay for a time, surpassing even King's Landing.
 
The Velaryons are like a reversed BE story - they're dragon people who came to Westeros... and one of them was a Kingsguard while other traveled northwards - which in terms of metaphor = going to space:
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It has long been accepted amongst the wise that our world is round. If this is true, it ought to be possible to sail over the top of the world and down its far side, and there discover lands and seas undreamed of. Over the centuries, many a bold mariner has sought to find a way through the ice to whatever lies beyond. Most, alas, have perished in the attempt, or returned south again half-frozen and much chastened. Whilst it is true that the White Waste recedes during summer and expands again in winter, its very shorelines ever changing, no seafarer has succeeded in finding this fabled northern passage, nor the warm summer sea that Maester Heriston of White Harbor once suggested might lie hidden and entombed behind the icy cliffs of the far north.
Sailors, by nature a gullible and superstitious lot, as fond of their fancies as singers, tell many tales of these frigid northern waters. They speak of queer lights shimmering in the sky, where the demon mother of the ice giants dances eternally through the night, seeking to lure men northward to their doom. They whisper of Cannibal Bay, where ships enter at their peril only to find themselves trapped forever when the sea freezes hard behind them.
They tell of pale blue mists that move across the waters, mists so cold that any ship they pass over is frozen instantly; of drowned spirits who rise at night to drag the living down into the grey-green depths; of mermaids pale of flesh with black-scaled tails, far more malign than their sisters of the south.

 

And later he travels to Yi Ti and N'ghai and Leng - a reversed BE journey?
Later he builts High Tide - allusion to black and bloody high tides raised to BE's actions?
And of course he's compared to Hightowers - as they have similar history as Velaryons. They both are descendants of GEoTD and later came to Westeros - namely southern and western shores, where they settled in proximity of weird object (Driftwood Throne and Black Stone foundations of the High Tower).
And obviously Lord Corlys gets numerous Night's Watch connections: 
Corlys liked to say that he was clinging to life "like a drowning sailor clinging to the wreckage of a sunken ship."  
Mayhaps the Seven have preserved me for this fight.
- He was 79 when he died
- he advised Aegon II to join the Watch.
Edited by Blue Tiger

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Posted (edited)

And supposedly Ser

Addam Velaryon was Corlys' son, dragonrider who has greenseer and Green Men connections:

Quote

The dragon was Seasmoke, his rider Ser Addam Velaryon, determined to prove that not all bastards need be turncloaks. How better to do that than by retaking Tumbleton from the Two Betrayers, whose treason had stained him? Singers say Ser Addam had flown from King’s Landing to the Gods Eye, where he landed on the sacred Isle of Faces and took counsel with the Green Men. The scholar must confine himself to known fact, and what we know is that Ser Addam flew far and fast, descending on castles great and small whose lords were loyal to the queen, to piece together an army.

Many a battle and skirmish had already been fought in the lands watered by the Trident, and there was scarce a keep or village that had not paid its due in blood … but Addam Velaryon was relentless and determined and glib of tongue, and the river lords knew much and more of the horrors that had befallen Tumbleton. By the time Ser Addam was ready to descend on Tumbleton, he had near four thousand men at his back.

So maybe Corlys is the BE figure, while Addam is Last Hero figure.

And Corlys' second son is Alyn 'Oakenfist'.

Quote

 

History has little good to say about Ser Hobert Hightower, but no man can question the manner of his death. Rather than betray his fellow Caltrops, he let the squire fill his cup, drank deep, and asked for more. Once he saw Hightower drink, Ulf the Sot lived up to his name, putting down three cups before he began to yawn. The poison in the wine was a gentle one. When Lord Ulf went to sleep, never to awaken, Ser Hobert lurched to his feet and tried to make himself retch, but too late. His heart stopped within the hour.

Afterward, Lord Unwin Peake offered a thousand golden dragons to any knight of noble birth who could claim Silverwing. Three men came forth. When the first had his arm torn off and the second burned to death, the third man reconsidered. By that time Peake’s army, the remnants of the great host that Prince Daeron and Lord Ormund Hightower had led all the way from Oldtown, was falling to pieces as deserters fled Tumbleton by the score with all the plunder they could carry. Bowing to defeat, Lord Unwin summoned his lords and serjeants and ordered a retreat. The accused turncloak Addam Velaryon, born Addam of Hull, had saved King’s Landing from the queen’s foes … at the cost of his own life.

Yet the queen knew nothing of his valor. Rhaenyra’s flight from King’s Landing had been beset with difficulty. At Rosby, she found the castle gates were barred at her approach. Young Lord Stokeworth’s castellan granted her hospitality, but only for a night. Half of her gold cloaks deserted on the road, and one night her camp was attacked by broken men. Though her knights beat off the attackers, Ser Balon Byrch was felled by an arrow, and Ser Lyonel Bentley, a young knight of the Queensguard, suffered a blow to the head that cracked his helm. He perished raving the following day. The queen pressed on toward Duskendale.

 

 

BTW, there are twelve ice cells at Castle Black, and they have heavy wooden door...

Edited by Blue Tiger

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Just giving you my 2 cents here.  I think like many people you came up with a theory and then looked for words you could use to justify it.  There are several passages you list where it seems like you overlooked the real meaning behind it simply to put it into your theory, for example the section where you compare Renly to Garth and Stannis to the Grey King.  You leave out the fact that Stannis is the older brother, and the passage you quote is clearly foreshadowing Catlyns death, that is the likely reason it was included, not anything else.

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20 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Just giving you my 2 cents here.  I think like many people you came up with a theory and then looked for words you could use to justify it.  There are several passages you list where it seems like you overlooked the real meaning behind it simply to put it into your theory, for example the section where you compare Renly to Garth and Stannis to the Grey King.  You leave out the fact that Stannis is the older brother, and the passage you quote is clearly foreshadowing Catlyns death, that is the likely reason it was included, not anything else.

In the cycle of Summer King (Oak King) and Winter King it doesn't really matter which one is older... Which came first, winter or summer?

Yes, in our calendar winter comes first, but that's only because our modern calendar begins in January...

What matters is that one kills another and this happens - Renly's killed by 'Stannis' and then Renly returns, like true Oak King should- his 'ghost' beats Stannis at Blackwater. 

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Just giving you my 2 cents here.  I think like many people you came up with a theory and then looked for words you could use to justify it.  There are several passages you list where it seems like you overlooked the real meaning behind it simply to put it into your theory, for example the section where you compare Renly to Garth and Stannis to the Grey King.  You leave out the fact that Stannis is the older brother, and the passage you quote is clearly foreshadowing Catlyns death, that is the likely reason it was included, not anything else.

I had at one point thought along the similar lines as you, so I do I understand your line of inquiry.  @Blue Tiger mentions the cyclical nature of what is being discussed which is a valid argument.  Also, the idea that parallels and symbols must fit in such a set way is the same as saying the passage is a bad example because Stannis is not Ironborn, or because Renly's armor is green instead of his skin.   I think that is the idea with parallels  and symbols is to get something similar and weave it into the plot and character arch.  The scene with Renly wearing green armor and antlers is meant to hit home his symbolism as a Garth figure, and there really is no question in my mind to this effect.  You are absolutely right this foreshadows Cat's death, but it also gives an association with drowning when she looks into the Garth armor when we know she didn't drown in reality. Her body was sent down the river after she died and she was later resurrected which is an Ironborn thing in itself

“Yet what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger!” he reminded them. “Balon has fallen, Balon my brother, who honored the Old Way and paid the iron price. Balon the Brave, Balon the Blessed, Balon Twice-Crowned, who won us back our freedoms and our god. Balon is dead … but an iron king shall rise again, to sit upon the Seastone Chair and rule the isles.”

Balon the Brave?  Gosh that sounds so familiar. 

Baelon the Brave:  while hunting in 101 AC, Prince Baelon complained of a stitch in his side, and died within days of a burst belly

Balon the Blessed?  Gosh that sounds so familiar

Baelor the Blessed:  Lady Maia of House Stokeworth— suggested that Viserys poisoned the king in order to finally gain the throne after a decade and more of waiting. Others have suggested that Viserys poisoned Baelor for the good of the realm.

Edited by Crowfood's Daughter

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Posted (edited)

duplicate

Edited by Crowfood's Daughter

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On 3/5/2017 at 6:02 PM, Crowfood's Daughter said:

my favorite, Robin Goodfellow (sound familiar) the horned Pan like vassal of Prince Oberon in a midsummer night's dream. 

Don't forget to mention that his name is also Puck, the trickster.

By the way, robins in Native American Tribes were viewed as good luck for pregnant women in the Blackfoot Tribe, specifically, and were viewed as thieves of fire. And they were sacred to Thor.

And @LmL you'll like this bit about Robins. They also have the legend that robins were originally brown but flew to comfort Jesus while he was dying on the cross and sang to him in his ear and some of his blood got on the robin and the blood stain was passed down from generation to generation. (Sounds like that bloodstone story you mentioned in the first podcast). A brown bird stained with blood that steals fire and is associated with Thor.............

Anyway that explanation of Christ's blood providing miracles has a ton of allusions in the series. Symeon Star-Eyes with his 'cured' blindess and his doubled bladed staff is a clear allusion to Longinus, the blind centurion that speared Jesus through the ribs as a mercy kill and was sprayed with his blood and received his eyesight back. 

 

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Just giving you my 2 cents here.  I think like many people you came up with a theory and then looked for words you could use to justify it.  There are several passages you list where it seems like you overlooked the real meaning behind it simply to put it into your theory, for example the section where you compare Renly to Garth and Stannis to the Grey King.  You leave out the fact that Stannis is the older brother, and the passage you quote is clearly foreshadowing Catlyns death, that is the likely reason it was included, not anything else.

And you forget that Stannis is a middle brother and the younger brother of Robert. Renly and Robert should be considered as the same symbolism because many people in universe state that Robert and Renly are almost the same person in looks and demeanor. 

Take the example of the Uncle killing his nephew. That is a not a clear cut Younger Brother killing his Older Brother but when you consider that a son is representative of his father (Like how Genna says that Tyrion is Tywin writ small-regardless of his sire Tyrion is the most like Tywin out of the three siblings), than an uncle killing his nephew would be a Younger Brother killing his Older Brother by both killing the seed of his Older Brother and a Shadow/Representative of his Older Brother.

So with the in universe statements of Robert and Renly being shown to have the same symbolism, and Stannis having pronounced issues with his older brother Robert, you can look at Stannis killing Renly as Stannis acting out his most darkest desire which is to kill his older brother Robert. 

Edited by Pain killer Jane

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1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Don't forget to mention that his name is also Puck, the trickster.

By the way, robins in Native American Tribes were viewed as good luck for pregnant women in the Blackfoot Tribe, specifically, and were viewed as thieves of fire. And they were sacred to Thor.

And @LmL you'll like this bit about Robins. They also have the legend that robins were originally brown but flew to comfort Jesus while he was dying on the cross and sang to him in his ear and some of his blood got on the robin and the blood stain was passed down from generation to generation. (Sounds like that bloodstone story you mentioned in the first podcast). A brown bird stained with blood that steals fire and is associated with Thor.............

Anyway that explanation of Christ's blood providing miracles has a ton of allusions in the series. Symeon Star-Eyes with his 'cured' blindess and his doubled bladed staff is a clear allusion to Longinus, the blind centurion that speared Jesus through the ribs as a mercy kill and was sprayed with his blood and received his eyesight back. 

 

That Blood of Christ stuff is awesome, the crucifixion also  has resurrection connotations as well. plus fertility fire and Thor.  Sounds like a good time to start looking at robins.

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58 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Baelor the Blessed:  Lady Maia of House Stokeworth— suggested that Viserys poisoned the king in order to finally gain the throne after a decade and more of waiting. Others have suggested that Viserys poisoned Baelor for the good of the realm.

I tend to take the stance that Viserys probably wasn't the one that poisoned Baelor as it was suggested that Aegon IV poisoned Viserys II, so why not use the same thing that has proven successful especially since Aegon II was poisoned by consent of his council and wanting power over a young boy Aegon III which is a parallel to Joffrey's death and Tommen's more desired ascension. 

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 I think it was his brother Aegon who took Baelor.  Aegon had to get through two Kings, one being his father.  Cynical, I know, but I don't think a pious Uncle would be that hard to part with for him. 

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2 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

 I think it was his brother Aegon who took Baelor.  Aegon had to get through two Kings, one being his father.  Cynical, I know, but I don't think a pious Uncle would be that hard to part with for him. 

Aegon IV was Baelor's cousin. And Aegon and Viserys could have agreed in a pact to kill Baelor like Littlefinger and the Tyrells and I tend to think that even Tywin agreed that it was best that Joffrey not reach maturity. Not saying he knew of the plot but it was convenient.............  

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1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And you forget that Stannis is a middle brother and the younger brother of Robert. Renly and Robert should be considered as the same symbolism because many people in universe state that Robert and Renly are almost the same person in looks and demeanor. 

Take the example of the Uncle killing his nephew. That is a not a clear cut Younger Brother killing his Older Brother but when you consider that a son is representative of his father (Like how Genna says that Tyrion is Tywin writ small-regardless of his sire Tyrion is the most like Tywin out of the three siblings), than an uncle killing his nephew would be a Younger Brother killing his Older Brother by both killing the seed of his Older Brother and a Shadow/Representative of his Older Brother.

So with the in universe statements of Robert and Renly being shown to have the same symbolism, and Stannis having pronounced issues with his older brother Robert, you can look at Stannis killing Renly as Stannis acting out his most darkest desire which is to kill his older brother Robert. 

No they don't, you made that up.

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4 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

No they don't, you made that up.

Quote

Renly had been a boy of eight when Robert won the throne, but he had grown into a man so like his brother that Ned found it disconcerting. Whenever he saw him, it was as if the years had slipped away and Robert stood before him, fresh from his victory on the Trident.

-Eddard IV, aGoT

 

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8 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

No they don't, you made that up.

Here again is Ned

Quote

Ned was not sure what to make of Renly, with all his friendly ways and easy smiles. A few days past, he had taken Ned aside to show him an exquisite rose gold locklet. Inside was a miniature painted in the vivid Myrish style, of a lovely young girl with doe's eyes and a cascade of soft brown hair. Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.

- Eddard VI, aGoT

 

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