The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

[LmL]

8 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

52 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi Crowfood's Daughter -- great (grey-green) essay!  

It's also reminiscent of some accounts of Kali's birth (the raging death aspect of the mother goddess) who sprang forth -- burst -- out of the forehead of one uncontainably enraged:

 

You know that story sounds like the story of Shekmet, the lion headed goddess who was the eye of Ra. 

You guys.... SHHHHHH.... you're going to give it all away!!!

The Kali stuff is thick in ASOIAF, it's definitely something he was thinking about. 

[Unchained]

On 3/10/2017 at 7:32 PM, LmL said:

Hey @Crowfood's Daughter and  @Unchained, sorry I have been away so long, I have been having a major brainwave and have been putting some things together, and I just had to step away. I'll respond to thoughts from both of you. As ever, you two are on the same page as I am, though I had never noticed the grey ash armor until recently, and hadn't connected it with Renly directly in this scene. So, they came through the burned trees, through the 'ash.' They had a burning tree banner, or course. This is Azor Ahai the horned lord being reborn through the weirwoodnet, through the ash tree weir-drasil (TM LmL). This is the Grey King stage of the cycle, as you say. Grey King was grey and corpse like, but he possess the living fire of the sea dragon, so he was still a fiery dude. 

This Greyiron thing is fabulous. It shows the transition - a green sea king man putting on the black crown. He'll be drowned in no time, ha ha. That's a great find! 

Don't forget that Nagga's ribs are on the 'crown' of Old Wyk, and a wick is something that catches on fire. So, that hill has a petrified stone crown that is waiting to catch on fire, or probably we should say it did catch on fire (OLD wyk) and is now a dead tree crown. 

@Crowfood's Daughter,

 

OK, I have mostly been behind the curve on this line of thinking, but I think I am somewhat caught up now.  Let's see if I can do this sort of analysis.  

 

Quellon Greyjoy was 6 and 1/2 feet tall, making him the same height as Robert Baratheon the storm King (Horned lords are giants after all, also the same height as Aragorn).  He tried to reform the ironborn ways and integrate them into the greenlands.   He freed the thralls, discouraged salt wives, encouraged weddings with greenlanders, forbade some reaving, and brought maesters to the iron islands.  He was a green storm type as best he could have been as a ruler of the iron islands.  He was succeeded by Balon a grey King type who undid all of those reforms and returned to the old ways and was crushed by Storm King Bob.  He was succeeded by Euron, who also favored the old ways.  On the surface he seems to be a like Balon, but underneath that he looks more like an inverted Storm type, the opposite of his father.  

 

There may be similar difference between lions who either laugh or do not and wild wolf Starks vs. quiet wolf types. 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 3/10/2017 at 5:32 PM, LmL said:

So, they came through the burned trees, through the 'ash.' They had a burning tree banner, or course. This is Azor Ahai the horned lord being reborn through the weirwoodnet, through the ash tree weir-drasil (TM LmL). This is the Grey King stage of the cycle, as you say. Grey King was grey and corpse like, but he possess the living fire of the sea dragon, so he was still a fiery dude. 

Snow is ash and ash is snow. 

[LmL]

6 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Snow is ash and ash is snow. 

your kink dear

[Pain killer Jane]

Just now, LmL said:

your kink dear

Quote

"The pyromancers roasted Lord Rickard slowly, banking and fanning that fire carefully to get a nice even heat. His cloak caught first, and then his surcoat, and soon he wore nothing but metal and ashes. 

If Lord Rickard is the burned the green king of winter than he is also a lord of ash.

Quote

"With mine own eyes. After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and . . . the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I'd stake my kingdom on it."

 

[LmL]

45 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

If Lord Rickard is the burned the green king of winter than he is also a lord of ash.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Quote

"With mine own eyes. After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and . . . the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I'd stake my kingdom on it."

 

Ok, this is great, I think. Stannis - AA - is looking through the fiery ash that is also a hearthfire - this is the fire moon and the weirwood. It acts as a gate through which he can reach the ice moon, where we see fire inside of ice - black fiery NW brothers surrounded by snow and WW and wights.  STannis  feels a terrible cold even though there is fire - now the fire is frozen, in other words. Cold fire. The ash turns to snow, falling instead of rising - it's a total inversion. 

@ravenous reader, that make sense to you? He's using the weirwood fire to reach an ice moon symbol which is like an inversion of everything. The fist fits the rising smoke symbol, and we have ash-like snow, but again, falling instead of rising, and cold instead of hot. It seems like the cold version of the weirwood here, like I was saying. The icy tree. Frozen weirwood. 

ETA: Stannis uses sea dragons - boats owned by Targs and AA people like Stannis, and Salla has Valyrian looks and a boat called the Valyrian - to reach the frozen north. That's the same as using the fiery ash to reach the ice moon via vision.

[Pain killer Jane]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

 

Ok, this is great, I think. Stannis - AA - is looking through the fiery ash that is also a hearthfire - this is the fire moon and the weirwood. It acts as a gate through which he can reach the ice moon, where we see fire inside of ice - black fiery NW brothers surrounded by snow and WW and wights.  STannis  feels a terrible cold even though there is fire - now the fire is frozen, in other words. Cold fire. The ash turns to snow, falling instead of rising - it's a total inversion. 

@ravenous reader, that make sense to you? He's using the weirwood fire to reach an ice moon symbol which is like an inversion of everything. The fist fits the rising smoke symbol, and we have ash-like snow, but again, falling instead of rising, and cold instead of hot. It seems like the cold version of the weirwood here, like I was saying. The icy tree. Frozen weirwood. 

The ash is also an extension of the white washing in this context as with the army covered in ash. I interpret this scene as the men in black being snowed upon by ash and some of those Ash-snow brothers are the snowmen on the battlements of Winterfell that became fierce terrifying giants after the snow storm. And Theon as the Grey King witnesses that particular scene.

[ravenous reader]

10 minutes ago, LmL said:

 

Ok, this is great, I think. Stannis - AA - is looking through the fiery ash that is also a hearthfire - this is the fire moon and the weirwood. It acts as a gate through which he can reach the ice moon, where we see fire inside of ice - black fiery NW brothers surrounded by snow and WW and wights.  STannis  feels a terrible cold even though there is fire - now the fire is frozen, in other words. Cold fire. The ash turns to snow, falling instead of rising - it's a total inversion. 

@ravenous reader, that make sense to you? He's using the weirwood fire to reach an ice moon symbol which is like an inversion of everything. The fist fits the rising smoke symbol, and we have ash-like snow, but again, falling instead of rising, and cold instead of hot. It seems like the cold version of the weirwood here, like I was saying. The icy tree. Frozen weirwood. 

ETA: Stannis uses sea dragons - boats owned by Targs and AA people like Stannis, and Salla has Valyrian looks and a boat called the Valyrian - to reach the frozen north. That's the same as using the fiery ash to reach the ice moon via vision.

Flying and falling are two sides of the same coin. (it will need some refinement before it makes sense, though...)

What do you think of these Patchface ditties now?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

Shireen giggled. "I should like a gown of silver seaweed."

"Under the sea, it snows up," said the fool, "and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

"Will it truly snow?" the child asked.

 

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

Cressen made his way toward the raised platform where the lords sat with the king. He had to step wide around Patchface. Dancing, his bells ringing, the fool neither saw nor heard his approach. As he hopped from one leg to the other, Patchface lurched into Cressen, knocking his cane out from under him. They went crashing down together amidst the rushes in a tangle of arms and legs, while a sudden gale of laughter went up around them. No doubt it was a comical sight.

Patchface sprawled half on top of him, motley fool's face pressed close to his own. He had lost his tin helm with its antlers and bells. "Under the sea, you fall up," he declared. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Giggling, the fool rolled off, bounded to his feet, and did a little dance.

Fire-reading is a way of accessing the weirnet, yes.  It's interesting that Stannis has this ability.  Bran uses fire in order to access the weirwood on at least one occasion.  Bran's facility with fire magic was pointed out long ago by the inimitable @evita mgfs.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Hodor carried Bran back to his chamber, muttering "Hodor" in a low voice as Leaf went before them with a torch. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

 

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Flying and falling are two sides of the same coin. (it will need some refinement before it makes sense, though...)

Right - two sides of the same coin, like yin and yang. Ice and fire. Opposites. Falling is also associated, potentially, with the dreamers impaled on ice spikes who probably represent the Others. But the point here is that I think we are seeing the fire moon / weirwood act as a portal to reach the ice moon, as opposed to the fire moon turning into the ice moon. Just wanted to get your opinion on that interpretation. LIke when Bran uses Hodor (weirwood, fire moon) to reach Meera (another moon maiden, presumably the ice moon), there has to be two moons or it doesn't work. Meera is a moon figure you can only reach through the weirwood figure, who = NN. I am still trying to chase away the last vestages of doubt about there being two moons and not just one. I think there has to be two. 

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What do you think of these Patchface ditties now?

I can explain all Patchface now thanks to your insight ~

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

Shireen giggled. "I should like a gown of silver seaweed."

"Under the sea, it snows up," said the fool, "and the rain is dry as bone. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

"Will it truly snow?" the child asked.

I think @Pain killer Jane just nailed this one - rising snow is ash. And falling ash would be dry rain, and of course the connection to bone makes sense because the weirs are bone white. This is talking about inside the weirwoodnet or about the weirwoodnet itself, both of these seem to refer to the column of ash being Martin's version of Yggy. 

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

Cressen made his way toward the raised platform where the lords sat with the king. He had to step wide around Patchface. Dancing, his bells ringing, the fool neither saw nor heard his approach. As he hopped from one leg to the other, Patchface lurched into Cressen, knocking his cane out from under him. They went crashing down together amidst the rushes in a tangle of arms and legs, while a sudden gale of laughter went up around them. No doubt it was a comical sight.

Patchface sprawled half on top of him, motley fool's face pressed close to his own. He had lost his tin helm with its antlers and bells. "Under the sea, you fall up," he declared. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Giggling, the fool rolled off, bounded to his feet, and did a little dance.

This one seems straightforward - falling can turn into flying when you are under the see - at least, as long as you know how to do it. Jeep falling and you die or turn into an Other. And btw, the idea of those impaled dreamers being the Others shows that they are greenseers who transformed inside the weirwoodnet, getting stuck in there in other words. I mean, whoever they are, they are stuck in the net. These would have to be Garth people, right? Are these the souls of Craster's sons, discarded into the net or something? 

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Fire-reading is a way of accessing the weirnet, yes.  It's interesting that Stannis has this ability.  Bran uses fire in order to access the weirwood on at least one occasion.  Bran's facility with fire magic was pointed out long ago by the inimitable @evita mgfs.

Ah ha! I can also claim to have independently discovered that one, though knowing how far back the wonderful and fabulous @evita mgfs goes, it's likely she found it first. I did notice this way back when - it was one of my first clues that weirwoods and fire were linked. That and the blaze of flame were my first clues, and then I thought baout the Storm God's thunderbolt story long enough to put it together. 

But yes, Bran is accessing the weirwoodnet without sitting in a weirwood throne. Even setting aside the fire access, consider the fact that greenseers can potentially access the net without being stuck in a chair, immobilized. A walking, fighting greenseer would be a terror, and this is one reasons I think most of the ancient FM kings would have been skinchangers and greenseers. The power would be terrifying. 

Going back to the fire, you have to wonder about that, certainly. 

[Pain killer Jane]

10 minutes ago, LmL said:

But yes, Bran is accessing the weirwoodnet without sitting in a weirwood throne. Even setting aside the fire access, consider the fact that greenseers can potentially access the net without being stuck in a chair, immobilized. A walking, fighting greenseer would be a terror, and this is one reasons I think most of the ancient FM kings would have been skinchangers and greenseers. The power would be terrifying. 

Going back to the fire, you have to wonder about that, certainly. 

So I have question which type came first seeing through weirwood net or Fire reading? Because if we take Symeon star eyes putting sapphires in his eye in order to see and we consider Sallahdor Saan saying that gazing at fire hurts because fire burns (or something along those lines) than it would seem that Fire reading came first. 

[LmL]

30 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So I have question which type came first seeing through weirwood net or Fire reading? Because if we take Symeon star eyes putting sapphires in his eye in order to see and we consider Sallahdor Saan saying that gazing at fire hurts because fire burns (or something along those lines) than it would seem that Fire reading came first. 

It might be so. The weirwoods cannot have been used by AA to break the fire moon, because 1.) the act of breaking the fire moon was needed to set fire to the tree and allow AA to enter the net. This is when the trees were given faces, I think. The thing that broke the moon was NN's scream, which is equivalent to the horn blowing. The horn blowing is symbolically similar to fire seeing, I think. The horn is compared to a shivering hot scream and a swordthrust that splits the air. The black steel glows with white fire once it gets hot enough, that's reminiscent of the glass candles, who make light brighter and shadows darker. And it's described like a sword of frozen fire (shivering hot sword = frozen fire perhaps).  Widow's Wail tracks well to the horn, and it is of course a symbol of the half of the split comet which killed NN. The sword itself is a sound - a cry - which cracks the moon. The horn blast is like a sword and a scream, and the sword is like a scream, and therefore like a horn (dragon horn if you will). 

So, I think the horn looks like the thing that was used to steer the comet.

Of course, on the other hand, I am not sure about that, because we see faceless trees reaching for the moon. So there might have been a way to use the weirwoods without giving them faces - I suspect this is what the children did anyway - but it was only possible for him to fully enter the net after giving them a face with a moon meteor knife or some shit. Blowing the horn kills you, so maybe you blow the horn, die, and enter the net. I'm just speculating here, but I would love all of your opinions. The ash tree / burning tree doesn't happen until after the comet strikes the moon (celestial version) or until after the moon meteors strike the earth (terrestrial version). At the Alchemical Wedding, the grey sleipnir horse of smoke is mounted as the dragons are hatching, as the fire moon is burning in the sun's fire. Then Drogo rides the stallion into the sky, into space, intothe Nightlands, into the see. The fire moon is a portal, usually to the ice moon (this correlates to the people who think 'under the sea' = beyond the Wall). This is the story of the black meteor getting trapped in the ice. This triggers the rise of the Others, just as NK trapping his seed inthe ice moon CQ gave rise to Others creation.

In other words.... The horn steers the comet into the fire moon, allows the weirwoodnet to be activated... enabling AA to be reborn on earth as a resurrected person, who is then ready to go North, beyond the Wall, which is also in a sense under the see and also into the ice moon. On earth, the weirwood is a portal for AA to transform himself and go into the frozen lands. Something like that? This is where I think of Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, who was sent to the Wall, or Jon Snow, a symbol of black ice and therefore transformed AA (a Sword of the Evening type) going to the Wall. To the extent Bran represents the falling lightning bolt / moon meteor, it's much the same when he goes beyond the Wall.

[ravenous reader]

28 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So I have question which type came first seeing through weirwood net or Fire reading? Because if we take Symeon star eyes putting sapphires in his eye in order to see and we consider Sallahdor Saan saying that gazing at fire hurts because fire burns (or something along those lines) than it would seem that Fire reading came first. 

Yes that's right.  The weirwood must first be transformed by fire -- so fire came first.

Fire is the central element of magic.

Whether the sapphires or the rubies glimmer, glitter, gleam, etc. -- it's because of the light.

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes that's right.  The weirwood must first be transformed by fire -- so fire came first.

Fire is the central element of magic.

Whether the sapphires or the rubies glimmer, glitter, gleam, etc. -- it's because of the light.

ok ok I see your point

check out my last comment, wrote it as you were writing this

[Crowfood's Daughter]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

It might be so. The weirwoods cannot have been used by AA to break the fire moon, because 1.) the act of breaking the fire moon was needed to set fire to the tree and allow AA to enter the net. This is when the trees were given faces, I think. The thing that broke the moon was NN's scream, which is equivalent to the horn blowing. The horn blowing is symbolically similar to fire seeing, I think. The horn is compared to a shivering hot scream and a swordthrust that splits the air. The black steel glows with white fire once it gets hot enough, that's reminiscent of the glass candles, who make light brighter and shadows darker. And it's described like a sword of frozen fire (shivering hot sword = frozen fire perhaps).  Widow's Wail tracks well to the horn, and it is of course a symbol of the half of the split comet which killed NN. The sword itself is a sound - a cry - which cracks the moon. The horn blast is like a sword and a scream, and the sword is like a scream, and therefore like a horn (dragon horn if you will). 

So, I think the horn looks like the thing that was used to steer the comet.

Of course, on the other hand, I am not sure about that, because we see faceless trees reaching for the moon. So there might have been a way to use the weirwoods without giving them faces - I suspect this is what the children did anyway - but it was only possible for him to fully enter the net after giving them a face with a moon meteor knife or some shit. Blowing the horn kills you, so maybe you blow the horn, die, and enter the net. I'm just speculating here, but I would love all of your opinions. The ash tree / burning tree doesn't happen until after the comet strikes the moon (celestial version) or until after the moon meteors strike the earth (terrestrial version). At the Alchemical Wedding, the grey sleipnir horse of smoke is mounted as the dragons are hatching, as the fire moon is burning in the sun's fire. Then Drogo rides the stallion into the sky, into space, intothe Nightlands, into the see. The fire moon is a portal, usually to the ice moon (this correlates to the people who think 'under the sea' = beyond the Wall). This is the story of the black meteor getting trapped in the ice. This triggers the rise of the Others, just as NK trapping his seed inthe ice moon CQ gave rise to Others creation.

In other words.... The horn steers the comet into the fire moon, allows the weirwoodnet to be activated... enabling AA to be reborn on earth as a resurrected person, who is then ready to go North, beyond the Wall, which is also in a sense under the see and also into the ice moon. On earth, the weirwood is a portal for AA to transform himself and go into the frozen lands. Something like that? This is where I think of Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, who was sent to the Wall, or Jon Snow, a symbol of black ice and therefore transformed AA (a Sword of the Evening type) going to the Wall. To the extent Bran represents the falling lightning bolt / moon meteor, it's much the same when he goes beyond the Wall.

Well, I think you know I am leaning toward the idea of team garth/green pulling down the moon.  One thing we need to take into context are some literal interpretations when it comes to the horn that broke the moon. 

The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze.

“And the man who blew the horn, what of him?” “He died. There were blisters on his lips, after. His bird was bleeding too.” The captain thumped his chest. “The hawk, just here. Every feather dripping blood. I heard the man was all burned up inside, but that might just have been some tale.”

Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron’s gifts are always poisoned. “The Crow’s Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is death?” “Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you.” Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. “Here. ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’ Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn’s master. You must claim the horn. With blood.”

I think the Grey King tricked Garth into pulling the moon down as a final resort or maybe even as an act of loyalty, hence the "leal eldest" part? I think the parallel of Euron getting his own brother to sound the horn is a hint, although it is inverted presently.  The Ironborn see the bringing of fire to the earth as kind of a good thing in their legends, despite the rising tides and the drowning Gods and death stuff, so maybe the drowning of the waters is what the Grey king needed and he used his brother to attain it?  After all, House Goodbrother does have that horn sigil, and it is the weirwoods, trees and the keep of House Goodbrother pulling down the moon. 

“Every morning brings a new day, much like the old.” “In Riverrun, they would tell you different. They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods.” “A sign it is,” the priest agreed, “but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.”

 

Time to hoist sails and go forth with fire and sword, or maybe a firesword?

I think the cloudy hand sigil of House Kenning is a hint to Garth being the moonbreaker, the storm god it literally depicted as a hand lashing down a thunderbolt.  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Kenning_of_Harlaw

When it comes down to it, it comes to some of that trickster symbolism, I have mentioned a couple times.  I can't put my finger on it, but it seems there is another figure sowing discourse.  It sounds crazy, but I am trying to get to the bottom of it before I can move on to another line of inquiry.  I think we may have a Dawn age equivalent of Littlefinger out there somewhere in the history of Westeros, maybe Lann, not sure but there is something.

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Well, I think you know I am leaning toward the idea of team garth/green pulling down the moon.  One thing we need to take into context are some literal interpretations when it comes to the horn that broke the moon. 

The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze.

“And the man who blew the horn, what of him?” “He died. There were blisters on his lips, after. His bird was bleeding too.” The captain thumped his chest. “The hawk, just here. Every feather dripping blood. I heard the man was all burned up inside, but that might just have been some tale.”

Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron’s gifts are always poisoned. “The Crow’s Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is death?” “Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you.” Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. “Here. ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’ Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn’s master. You must claim the horn. With blood.”

I think the Grey King tricked Garth into pulling the moon down as a final resort or maybe even as an act of loyalty, hence the "leal eldest" part? I think the parallel of Euron getting his own brother to sound the horn is a hint, although it is inverted presently.  The Ironborn see the bringing of fire to the earth as kind of a good thing in their legends, despite the rising tides and the drowning Gods and death stuff, so maybe the drowning of the waters is what the Grey king needed and he used his brother to attain it?  After all, House Goodbrother does have that horn sigil, and it is the weirwoods, trees and the keep of House Goodbrother pulling down the moon. 

“Every morning brings a new day, much like the old.” “In Riverrun, they would tell you different. They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods.” “A sign it is,” the priest agreed, “but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did.”

 

Time to hoist sails and go forth with fire and sword, or maybe a firesword?

I think the cloudy hand sigil of House Kenning is a hint to Garth being the moonbreaker, the storm god it literally depicted as a hand lashing down a thunderbolt.  http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Kenning_of_Harlaw

When it comes down to it, it comes to some of that trickster symbolism, I have mentioned a couple times.  I can't put my finger on it, but it seems there is another figure sowing discourse.  It sounds crazy, but I am trying to get to the bottom of it before I can move on to another line of inquiry.  I think we may have a Dawn age equivalent of Littlefinger out there somewhere in the history of Westeros, maybe Lann, not sure but there is something.

Take a look at the threw Garths in the NW and compare them to the three Baratheon brothers. You will find your answer there. 

[hiemal]

10 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So I have question which type came first seeing through weirwood net or Fire reading? Because if we take Symeon star eyes putting sapphires in his eye in order to see and we consider Sallahdor Saan saying that gazing at fire hurts because fire burns (or something along those lines) than it would seem that Fire reading came first. 

 You have to grow the wood before you can burn it, and I think it must be considered that Symeon's eyes might have looked like star sapphires for some other reason- gemstone-like eyes actually popping up in the story more often than gems used as replacements. Dragonglass and pearls aside. for also being gemlike

9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes that's right.  The weirwood must first be transformed by fire -- so fire came first.

Fire is the central element of magic.

The more I think about it, the more I think that blood (or sap? Soul?) is the central element and that fire, ice, water, and air are just reagents.

For example- the summoned water spouts of the Rhoynar during the Valyrian invasion seem fire-free. I still think we will find fire magic fused into the Wall, however- I think that was how we ended up discussing fire's prominence?

[Unchained]

6 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

“And the man who blew the horn, what of him?” “He died. There were blisters on his lips, after. His bird was bleeding too.” The captain thumped his chest. “The hawk, just here. Every feather dripping blood. I heard the man was all burned up inside, but that might just have been some tale.”

@LmL,

 

I think you definitely blow the horn, die and go into the WWnet.  The hawk on the chest dripping blood in the quote above appears to be a reference to the practice known as the blood eagle.  It was a legendary sacrifice to Odin, where the person's lungs were pulled through cuts in the back to form wings.  Blowing the horn is being sacrificed to the trees and it gives you wings to fly with.  It is said this was performed by the sons of Ragnar Lodbrok as revenge on the king who threw him into a pit of snakes.  The whole group of brothers are grandsons of Sigurd the wielder of the reforged tree sword Gram because Ragnar was said to have married his daughter.  One of the brothers was named Sigurd Snake-in-the-eye.  He was said to have the Ouroboros in his eye.  I have wondered whether Euron with his eye abnormality and apparent knowledge of the coming events which are repeats of older ones are in part a reference to him.  

[Pain killer Jane]

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The more I think about it, the more I think that blood (or sap? Soul?) is the central element and that fire, ice, water, and air are just reagents.

Yes the blood is central. The blood sacrifice is both holders of mana (it is a Polynesian concept) and a way to manipulate mana for the purposes of seeing the physical result that is magic, answered prayers, favorable luck, etc. etc. etc. Blood is power and in the series, regardless of how blood is taken it still results in power acquisition or loss of power which are two sides of one coin.

Take Varys and Tyrion's conversation on power. I have colored coded which instances of power. Knowledge is also 

Quote

Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?"

"It has crossed my mind a time or two," Tyrion admitted. "The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."

"And yet he is no one," Varys said. "He has neither crown nor gold nor favor of the gods, only a piece of pointed steel."

"That piece of steel is the power of life and death."

"Just so . . . yet if it is the swordsmen who rule us in truth, why do we pretend our kings hold the power? Why should a strong man with a sword ever obey a child king like Joffrey, or a wine-sodden oaf like his father?"

"Because these child kings and drunken oafs can call other strong men, with other swords."

"Then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they? Whence came their swords? Why do they obey?" Varys smiled. "Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor's Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?"

Tyrion cocked his head sideways. "Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?"

Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

"So power is a mummer's trick?"

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

Tyrion smiled. "Lord Varys, I am growing strangely fond of you. I may kill you yet, but I think I'd feel sad about it."

"I will take that as high praise."

"What are you, Varys?" Tyrion found he truly wanted to know. "A spider, they say."

"Spies and informers are seldom loved, my lord. I am but a loyal servant of the realm."

"And a eunuch. Let us not forget that."

"I seldom do."

"People have called me a halfman too, yet I think the gods have been kinder to me. I am small, my legs are twisted, and women do not look upon me with any great yearning . . . yet I'm still a man. Shae is not the first to grace my bed, and one day I may take a wife and sire a son. If the gods are good, he'll look like his uncle and think like his father. You have no such hope to sustain you. Dwarfs are a jape of the gods . . . but men make eunuchs. Who cut you, Varys? When and why? Who are you, truly?"

The eunuch's smile never flickered, but his eyes glittered with something that was not laughter. "You are kind to ask, my lord, but my tale is long and sad, and we have treasons to discuss." He drew a parchment from the sleeve of his robe. "The master of the King's Galley White Hart plots to slip anchor three days hence to offer his sword and ship to Lord Stannis."

Tyrion sighed. "I suppose we must make some sort of bloody lesson out of the man?"

"Ser Jacelyn could arrange for him to vanish, but a trial before the king would help assure the continued loyalty of the other captains."

And keep my royal nephew occupied as well. "As you say. Put him down for a dose of Joffrey's justice."

Varys made a mark on the parchment. "Ser Horas and Ser Hobber Redwyne have bribed a guard to let them out a postern gate, the night after next. Arrangements have been made for them to sail on the Pentoshi galley Moonrunner, disguised as oarsmen."

"Can we keep them on those oars for a few years, see how they fancy it?" He smiled. "No, my sister would be distraught to lose such treasured guests. Inform Ser Jacelyn. Seize the man they bribed and explain what an honor it is to serve as a brother of the Night's Watch. And have men posted around the Moonrunner, in case the Redwynes find a second guard short of coin."

"As you will." Another mark on the parchment. "Your man Timett slew a wineseller's son this evening, at a gambling den on the Street of Silver. He accused him of cheating at tiles."

"Was it true?"

"Oh, beyond a doubt."

"Then the honest men of the city owe Timett a debt of gratitude. I shall see that he has the king's thanks."

The eunuch gave a nervous giggle and made another mark. "We also have a sudden plague of holy men. The comet has brought forth all manner of queer priests, preachers, and prophets, it would seem. They beg in the winesinks and pot-shops and foretell doom and destruction to anyone who stops to listen."

Tyrion shrugged. "We are close on the three hundredth year since Aegon's Landing, I suppose it is only to be expected. Let them rant."

"They are spreading fear, my lord."

"I thought that was your job."

Varys covered his mouth with his hand. "You are very cruel to say so. One last matter. Lady Tanda gave a small supper last night. I have the menu and the guest list for your inspection. When the wine was poured, Lord Gyles rose to lift a cup to the king, and Ser Balon Swann was heard to remark, 'We'll need three cups for that.' Many laughed . . ."

Tyrion raised a hand. "Enough. Ser Balon made a jest. I am not interested in treasonous table talk, Lord Varys."

"You are as wise as you are gentle, my lord." The parchment vanished up the eunuch's sleeve. "We both have much to do. I shall leave you."

-Tyrion II, aCoK

 Tyrion and Varys clearly point to the subtle instances of power acquisition which are accompanied by blood sacrifice. 

Strong men are considered powerful because of the amount of blood they have shed.

The King's law or Justice is through bloody lessons based on the judgement of criminals.

The God's favor in combination of self blood letting as noted by the hard gnarled feet of the High Sparrow. Gnarled feet bled before they became gnarled. 

And then procreation is a blood magic because it is important to remember that right before this exchange, Varys and Tyrion speak on the death of the baby Barra, who was killed because her blood held power not how Mel and Euron's version of blood sacrifice but for Cersei, Barra had the power of evidence against her and Joffrey and so Barra was a blood sacrifice for Cersei's power. (And Cersei's power is embodiment in incest which is a significant feature of mana/power conservation.)

There are more instances such as Mirri's ritual to heal Drogo which is the more recognizable version of the blood sacrifice for power

Quote

"This is bloodmagic," he said. "It is forbidden."

"I am khaleesi, and I say it is not forbidden. In Vaes Dothrak, Khal Drogo slew a stallion and I ate his heart, to give our son strength and courage. This is the same. The same."

The stallion kicked and reared as Rakharo, Quaro, and Aggo pulled him close to the tub where the khal floated like one already dead, pus and blood seeping from his wound to stain the bathwaters. Mirri Maz Duur chanted words in a tongue that Dany did not know, and a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, its blade covered with ancient glyphs. The maegi drew it across the stallion's throat, under the noble head, and the horse screamed and shuddered as the blood poured out of him in a red rush. He would have collapsed, but the men of her khas held him up. "Strength of the mount, go into the rider," Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo's bath. "Strength of the beast, go into the man."

Also as a side note Power acquisition goes hand in hand with betrayal which is another layer to the explanation why AA killing his sister the Amethyst empress is called the Blood Betrayal.  

[hiemal]

6 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

 

Take Varys and Tyrion's conversation on power. I have colored coded which instances of power. Knowledge is also 

 Tyrion and Varys clearly point to the subtle instances of power acquisition which are accompanied by blood sacrifice. 

Strong men are considered powerful because of the amount of blood they have shed.

The King's law or Justice is through bloody lessons based on the judgement of criminals.

The God's favor in combination of self blood letting as noted by the hard gnarled feet of the High Sparrow. Gnarled feet bled before they became gnarled. 

 

First- love the color coding. That is handy.

The king's power is from the blood in his veins and the priest's from the blood he sheds in sacrifice. Rich men typically hire Strong men to shed such blood as is required to lubricate the wheels of commerce.

16 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

And then procreation is a blood magic... Cersei's power is embodiment in incest which is a significant feature of mana/power conservation ...

Also as a side note Power acquisition goes hand in hand with betrayal which is another layer to the explanation why AA killing his sister the Amethyst empress is called the Blood Betrayal.  

Tinfoil: BSE "killed" by his sister by impregnating her before she died in childbirth. Poor Nissa-Nissa.

[Pain killer Jane]

58 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The king's power is from the blood in his veins and the priest's from the blood he sheds in sacrifice. Rich men typically hire Strong men to shed such blood as is required to lubricate the wheels of commerce.

Yes. For explanation purposes I separated power into those categories but subjects can cross into any category and imploy all methods of power acquistion. The wildlings follow strong men who are bathed in blood and make them kings. Mance clearly states that he won villages via his blade and other forms to gain the loyalty of the wildlings. And Euron, one of my faves in an example all his own, is a strong man for bathing in enemies' blood, a holy man since he has paid the Iron price (his own and others), a knowledgeable brigand (all his walking in Valyria, drinking the wine of warlocks), and a Rich Man since he was generous with his chests of gold and gems. 

Edit: The use of Butcher which is a type of merchant but also an epithet for a strong man and also a little known use of dressing, a dress maker being another type of merchant and dressing an animal is a feature of butchering an animal by a hunter. (This particular pun is used by Sam in reference to his father trying to teach him how to be a good solider. Interestingly enough Sam used this knowledge to justify that two bodies they found had not been butchered there recently)